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Are expensive speaker cables better than cheap ones? Sorry guys, I’m changing team!
Old 22nd November 2016
  #1
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Thread Starter
Are expensive speaker cables better than cheap ones? Sorry guys, I’m changing team!

I’m about to buy a pair of TAD Compact Evolution One speakers for my control room – dream coming true!

So last Friday I visited the Swedish distributor and spent all day listening to music, instruments, pop vocals, 808 kicks, you name it – to evaluate if the speakers really live up to the hype. A hype I created for myself after listening to both the TAD CE-1 and the bigger TAD Reference 1 speakers a year ago. Been dreaming of them ever since.

I even brought my Crookwood C1 monitor controller, a production laptop with digital out and my Quested V3110 main speakers. I set them up next to the TADs just to have something to compare with that I know inside out.

Anyway, after a whole day of evaluation, I asked the distributor what kind of speaker cables being used, and he told me it was a pair of Acoustic Zen Absolute Shotgun – bi-wired and each cable thick as a thumb.

This was my chance to A/B compare a very expensive speaker cable with a “normal” speaker cable costing about $300.

Said and done, I took a good listen to a very well-recorded and mixed Diana Krall song and a very natural sounding choral recording.

Then we switched to the cheaper speaker cables, and it took me ten seconds to hear the difference. I thought, “damn”, and listened some more.

Then we switched back and I thought “holy crap!”. The difference was not subtle!

After listening through the Acoustic Zen speaker cables all day, it was easy for me to spot the difference in sound quality.

So how did the cheaper speaker cables impact negatively on the sound quality?

Well, they affected the low-end dynamic (less thump more oomph), the mid-range got flatter and a tad(!) grainer. The stereo width was affected, the positioning of the instruments far left and right got a little bit less obvious and the transients of the brush snare drum and ride cymbal became a little recessed in the mix. Overall the mixes became a little bit lifeless in comparison.

Was the difference night and day? No, but it was big enough to concern me.

You’re thinking, snake oil! Charlatan! Roll him in tar and feathers!

In my defense, I’m not claiming that all expensive speaker cables “sound” better than cheap ones, not at all. The quality of the power amp and speakers along with the room acoustics will most likely dictate whether the difference in sound quality is audible or not.

The only way to really know is to do what I did, try it out yourself with a pair of great sound sounding speaker, a transparent power amp and a pair of Acoustic Zen Absolute Shotgun speaker cables. LOL!

I wasn’t planning on paying mucho dinero for speaker cables. I was planning on paying $300/pair.

But, in my case and in my setup, the difference was so obvious.

So here I am – instead of buying a Bricasti with remote, I’m buying a damn pair of speaker cables for $6000(!!).

Am I crazy? Yes, I am, now that I know what difference it makes. I have to go for it!

So, sorry guys, when it comes to speaker cables, I’m playing for the other team now.


Cheers
Fred
Sound On Sound contributor
Attached Thumbnails
Are expensive speaker cables better than cheap ones? Sorry guys, I’m changing team!-acoustic-zen-1.jpg   Are expensive speaker cables better than cheap ones? Sorry guys, I’m changing team!-acoustic-zen-2.jpg  
Old 22nd November 2016
  #2
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Bob Ross's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by frenzy View Post
Then we switched to the cheaper speaker cables, and it took me ten seconds to hear the difference. I thought, “damn”, and listened some more.

Then we switched back and I thought “holy crap!”. The difference was not subtle!

After listening through the Acoustic Zen speaker cables all day, it was easy for me to spot the difference in sound quality.

You're new here, aren't you?
Old 22nd November 2016
  #3
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Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Ross View Post
You're new here, aren't you?
Yes! Isn't this the I-Love-HiFi.com forum?


Let the ****storm begin!


Cheers
Fred
Sound On Sound contributor
Old 22nd November 2016
  #4
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You're so cool.
Old 22nd November 2016
  #5
I can't believe you're not getting a Bricasti and using the money on cables...... I would think the sound of the recording is more important than playback. A Bricasti will certainly help there! Anyway, glad you're happy and it's great you have that kind of money to spend and the ears to hear the subtlties! Rock on...
Old 23rd November 2016
  #6
I will agree that cables do make a difference. I was skeptical too until I swapped out the cables from my dac to MC and my cables to my monitors. Difference is subtle but it is there. I also didnt spend 6k on them so who knows just jumping from 60 to 250 dollar cables. If it'll give you better mixes and help you produce better/faster , power to you my friend!
Old 23rd November 2016
  #7
Gear Nut
Quote:
Originally Posted by frenzy View Post
a “normal” speaker cable costing about $300.
[...]
I wasn’t planning on paying mucho dinero for speaker cables. I was planning on paying $300/pair.
What?
Old 23rd November 2016
  #8
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$300 for "normal" speaker cables sounds expensive to me. $6000 sounds crazy, but who's to say what's a worthwhile purchase?
I'm a bit of a cable sceptic, and could never bring myself to pay that much. Though having said that, I got new silver coated speaker cables today, and I think I heard a slight improvement, though I think I need to hear some more.
They were $100 for 3 metres, the old ones were $40 for the same length.
Old 23rd November 2016
  #9
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My view is yes, cables do make a notable difference, but the difference is more related to what amp and speaker combo you are running and how THAT exact cable interacts with them than price. I would try a few more less ridiculously priced quality cables and you might find one that interacts like the 6000 dollar cable does........just sayin....
Old 23rd November 2016
  #10
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Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBrightSide View Post
I'm a bit of a cable sceptic, and could never bring myself to pay that much. Though having said that, I got new silver coated speaker cables today, and I think I heard a slight improvement, though I think I need to hear some more.
Then you are on the right path! :-)


Cheers
Fred
Sound On Sound contributor
Old 23rd November 2016
  #11
Lives for gear
Before you spent a ridiculous amount of money (and $6000 IS ridiculous - someone is making an enormous profit on that sum of money)

I would make sure someone else other than yourself does a proper double blind ABX test on you.

For example have a friend or wife/partner change the cables to between the $6000 and $300 whilst you're not in the room.

Enter the room BLIND FOLDED and then say which pair you are listening to.

Repeat 10 times (remember your spending $6000 here on cables!) if the result isn't 10/10 for the $6000 cables then buy the Bricasti and remote (which will actually make a difference to your music that people can actually HEAR)

My guess is you'll end up with 5/5 - in other words under proper double blind ABX testing you'll just be guessing.

I have done this to so many "audiophile" friends from $200 mains cables, which they most definitely couldn't pick out from their kettle lead (lol), to a whole range of other snake oil BS!

Here's an example.

Every one knows a computer monitor in front of you "allegedly" interferes with your speakers image and what you hear at the sweet spot.
I wanted to get a couple of 24" monitors (one in front and one to the right hand side) but I said to my wife it will interfere with my K&H 0300's - the computer monitors where not in the direct path of the tweeters (which is the key part here as lower frequencies are not as directional in the same way as higher frequencies)

She said to me " I don't believe you can actually hear that" so she double blind tested me.

She set up the two 24" computer monitors on my desk/or not! - and I entered my studio blind folded and had to say if the monitors where there or not there, when playing back familiar music through the 0300's from a Crane Song Avocet in a treated room.

To my utter surprise I couldn't tell whether the two monitors where there or not - TWO large 24" computer monitors! - I was just guessing! My expectation bias was thrown out of the window when I couldn't viusally see what was there.
She had called BS on me and she was right.

I never ever come to any conclusions about audio I cannot prove without proper double blind ABX testing done by SOMEONE ELSE!

There's no way I'd part with $6000 of my hard earned money on cables until I had proved to myslef 100% I wasn't falling victim to expectation bias.

Get someone to properly blind test you first - please! :-)
Old 23rd November 2016
  #12
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Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
My view is yes, cables do make a notable difference, but the difference is more related to what amp and speaker combo you are running and how THAT exact cable interacts with them than price.
Agree. Then of course quality comes at a price, like with everything in life.

I'm not claiming that expensive speaker cables will "perform" better than cheap ones, because there are a lot of charlatans in the HiFi business.

And you have to try them out with your speakers and your amps.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
I would try a few more less ridiculously priced quality cables and you might find one that interacts like the 6000 dollar cable does........just sayin....
I know, I know, got one foot in the HiFi world now, and it's stuck there. The HiFi world's quest for the "ultimate sound experience" appeals to me, apart from getting great mixing and mastering speakers.

I could have gotten less expensive (but still expensive) Acoustic Zen cables, but I wasn't able to audition them with the TAD speakers. My gut feeling was that I did not want to take the chance whether they would have as little impact on the sound as the bi-wired Absolute cable.

Prior to spending a day with the TADs and the phat speaker cables, I was vigorously laughing at HiFi people telling me that speaker cables can make a difference.

But look who's eating his hat now.


Cheers
Fred
Sound On Sound contributor
Old 23rd November 2016
  #13
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TheBrightSide's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by frenzy View Post

But look who's eating his hat now.

Should have put a few bucks aside for some food.

I think the blind test idea is a good one, considering the outlay.

I think I've reached the limit of what I'm prepared to spend on cables at $100, even after noticing a pinch more detail (which is nice)
The law of diminishing returns applies on everything audio, probably none more so than cables.
But I also have to say I do respect that someone is willing to spend so much on a noticeable improvement in quality. It's a dirty word around here, but I definitely consider myself an audiophile (lover of sound)
Old 23rd November 2016
  #14
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Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by thehightenor View Post
I would make sure someone else other than yourself does a proper double blind ABX test on you.

For example have a friend or wife/partner change the cables to between the $6000 and $300 whilst you're not in the room.

Enter the room BLIND FOLDED and then say which pair you are listening to.
I know, man! You are absolutely right. I always try to do blindtests when I audition and write about outboard and plug-ins. I would have opted for that if the difference wouldn't have been so obvious. Remember I'm only referring to the system I was listening to, and that I'm buying.
You have to try it out yourself, to hear if high quality/expensive speaker cables make any difference. But do try it out, it might surprise you!

What I did do, was to setup a Pearl MS-8 microphone in the listening position, hook it up to a Sound Devices USBpreII soundcard, play a very well-recorded Diana Krall song from the TAD CD-player and record the result. Then we switched speaker cables and recorded the exact same song again. Nothing else changed in the room except the speaker cables (and maybe +-0.1 degree Celsius from body movement in the room during the switch).

The TAD CD-player costs about $15.000 and sound amazing. Really made me respect 44.1kHz 16bit sound reproduction. (eating another hat)

I knew what difference the cheaper cables would do to the sound stage, but I didn't know if the recording would capture a difference at all.

Back in my control room I loaded up the two sound clips in Cubase, and used the HOFA Blindtest plug-in to shuffle around the tracks. It's a great plug-in because you're able to move around in the arrangement and listen to whatever part of the song, solo listen back and forth in the plug-in without knowing which is which, then vote which is the "best" one.

Believe it or not, I picked the Acoustic Zen cable each time, 10 out of 10. And why was I able to do that? Because I had experienced the difference in sound reproduction first hand, and knew what to "home in on". The difference was of course much less audible in the recording due to the recording chain and the fact that a microphone can only capture so much. Our ears are much much more sensitive.

Will I post the sound clips for you to scrutinize? No, not at the moment, because it will raise a debate how big or small the difference is between the two recordings, and that was not the purpose when I made the recordings. I wanted to know if the microphone would be able to capture a difference at all, and it did.

When I have the TAD speakers set up in my control room, and when they have been gracefully played in, I will redo the test and record the results with better micpreamps and my Crookwood ADC at 192kHz. Then maybe post them in this thread. The problem will however persist, I probably can'y capture the real difference, and make it $6000-obvious in the recording. It has to be experienced in real life. Just like listening live to a Stradivarius violin being played by a great violinist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thehightenor View Post
I have done this to so many "audiophile" friends from $200 mains cables, which they most definitely couldn't pick out from their kettle lead (lol), to a whole range of other snake oil BS!
I hear you, and I'm with you on the mains cable. The reseller tried to sell me an expensive mains cable for the amp, but I said dead no!

But who knows, when he visit me, he will bring the mains cable for me to try out. I will resist buying it unless the difference is as obvious as with the speaker cables. Same goes for $1500 AES/EBU cables.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thehightenor View Post
I never ever come to any conclusions about audio I cannot prove without proper double blind ABX testing done by SOMEONE ELSE!

There's no way I'd part with $6000 of my hard earned money on cables until I had proved to myslef 100% I wasn't falling victim to expectation bias.

Get someone to properly blind test you first - please! :-)
You are so right! :-)

But in this case, and with these circumstances, and with the results, I had to go for it.

And if you have a pair of NS10, PMC or even ATC, it's silly to buy the cables I bought for the TAD speakers.

For all of you using passive speakers. Buy a pair of the cheapest Acoustic Zen cables, the Epoch. They cost about $360/pair. There must be places that allow a free 30 day return guarantee. Why not visit your local HiFi-dealer.

Keep an open mind, make the switch, listen to some reference material and some of your own mixes, listen to the transient response, the stereo panorama and the mid-range depth, how the instruments sit together. Then switch back again.
If you think you hear a difference, make a mental note what the difference was, then have a friend perform a blindtest on you, switching cables back and forth.
You might be in for a surprise, or you might just return the cables to the store.

But do try it out! Your music is worth it! ;-)


Cheers
Fred
Sound On Sound contributor

Last edited by frenzy; 23rd November 2016 at 01:25 PM..
Old 23rd November 2016
  #15
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Karloff70's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by frenzy View Post



I know, I know, got one foot in the HiFi world now, and it's stuck there. The HiFi world's quest for the "ultimate sound experience" appeals to me, apart from getting great mixing and mastering speakers.
Me too! If you are going to spend a large portion of your life suspended in a 3D audio bubble emerging out of speakers in front of you it would basically be folly NOT to make that bubble a very friendly feeling place. Innit?
Old 23rd November 2016
  #16
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Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
Me too! If you are going to spend a large portion of your life suspended in a 3D audio bubble emerging out of speakers in front of you it would basically be folly NOT to make that bubble a very friendly feeling place. Innit?
Yes! Indeed!

And having clients and friends in the control room, and being able to impress them with the most beautiful sound reproduction is very gratifying.

My Quested V3110 sounded great, but making the switch to the control room I have now, made the listening position a bit too close to the speakers. Being mid-field speakers, they needed at least two meters distance, but sounded the best at three meters. Still I was able to produce a very vivid sound stage that impressed visitors.

The TAD speakers are of course in a totally different league. I am of course a bit worried that I haven't tried them out in my own control room, but switching back and forth between the Questeds and the TADs at the resellers place, made me somewhat calm.
The cocentric design of the tweeter and mid-range makes them less sensitive to the listening distance. I will be listening two meters away.

I will start a thread about the TADs once I have them installed. There really is a "before and after TAD" experience.


Cheers
Fred
Sound On Sound contributor
Old 23rd November 2016
  #17
Lives for gear
Quote:
Will I post the sound clips for you to scrutinize? No, not at the moment, because it will raise a debate how big or small the difference is between the two recordings, and that was not the purpose when I made the recordings. I wanted to know if the microphone would be able to capture a difference at all, and it did.
You're obviously not short of $6000 :-)

If I where dropping $6000 on some wire then I'd sure as heck hope the difference would be obvious to enough people that posting clips would have the majority going "wow".

I suspect you know most would be thinking the same as me :-)

Hey it's all good, I just spent a heap of cash on a Retro STA Level tube compressor to add a touch of compression tracking vocals because it sounds 5% better than my Millennia tube compressor - we all have our little audio quirks - that would leave many scratching their heads.

Old 23rd November 2016
  #18
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Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by thehightenor View Post
You're obviously not short of $6000 :-)

If I where dropping $6000 on some wire then I'd sure as heck hope the difference would be obvious to enough people that posting clips would have the majority going "wow".

I suspect you know most would be thinking the same as me :-)
For sure. The Pearl mic sounds great, the micpres and AD-conversion of the Sound Devices USB-soundcard sounds good, but not more than that.

Let's see if I can capture the full essence of the TADs in my control room and even the difference in sound quality between the speaker cables. Time will tell.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thehightenor View Post
Hey it's all good, I just spent a heap of cash on a Retro STA Level tube compressor to add a touch of compression tracking vocals because it sounds 5% better than my Millennia tube compressor - we all have our little audio quirks - that would leave many scratching their heads.
Yeah, man! Even when there are fantastic plug-ins around that can emulate any analogue outboard to the extent that it's impossible to hear the difference. Still there is a difference. LOL!

In contrast, I took the cheap road and bought a Warm Audio WA-2A for vocal compression duties, to pair with my Purple Audio MC77. They sound great together!


Cheers
Fred
Old 23rd November 2016
  #19
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I think its fine to spend $6000 on a small perceived improvement. Provided all $6000 expenditures that make large improvements are exhausted first. Think how much 6000 of room treatment would do. Or a couple of $3000 microphones. So the question should be what is my biggest problem and how do i address it. What is really hard to believe is that there isn't a bigger issue to address than the cable issue. I have had some issues with cheap cables, but nothing a $100 order from Redco would take care of.
Old 23rd November 2016
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thehightenor View Post
I would make sure someone else other than yourself does a proper double blind ABX test on you.

For example have a friend or wife/partner change the cables to between the $6000 and $300 whilst you're not in the room.

Enter the room BLIND FOLDED and then say which pair you are listening to.

Repeat 10 times (remember your spending $6000 here on cables!) if the result isn't 10/10 for the $6000 cables then buy the Bricasti and remote (which will actually make a difference to your music that people can actually HEAR)
I don't want to be picky, but what you describe is a blind test, not a double blind test. For a real double blind, your wife should not know which cable is the $6000 one.
Have a nice day!
Marc
Old 23rd November 2016
  #21
Maybe it's just me but I don't see how he can post before and after samples on SPEAKER cable. Recording yes. Really have to be in the room he's talking about, unless I'm missing something.....
Old 23rd November 2016
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by melillo View Post
I don't want to be picky, but what you describe is a blind test, not a double blind test. For a real double blind, your wife should not know which cable is the $6000 one.
Have a nice day!
Marc
Trust me she wouldn't!
Old 24th November 2016
  #23
Gear Head
 

I just remembered, this is the Low End forum, where $300 speaker cables ought to be considered ludicrously-overpriced "luxuries" for those who already have enough Porsches and alimony payments, much less $6,000 ones, which cost more than the price of any piece of equipment that would realistically be discussed here.
Old 27th November 2016
  #24
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Are there any boxes on the costly cables?

I would check impedance of both cables and measure frequency response at the speaker terminals for starters.

I would also run a proper double blind test AND ask for "open buy".

I've heard many stories about audible differences that goes away after a while.. ;-)

It IS easy to be fooled by our own minds, that's why proper blind tests are done in many areas.. audio technology, wine testing, medicine.

Also often when there actually is a real difference at play, it is a pure frequency response difference... Or a small level difference. You don't want to pay 6 grands for that.. ;-)
Old 27th November 2016
  #25
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Oh I forgot we are in the low end forum... heck, even 300 dollares for a pair of speaker cables is a bit crazy = this whole thread does not belong in this forum.

As I think someone already wrote.. :-)
Old 27th November 2016
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiop View Post
Oh I forgot we are in the low end forum... heck, even 300 dollares for a pair of speaker cables is a bit crazy = this whole thread does not belong in this forum.

As I think someone already wrote.. :-)
I think the OP thought it was "low end Hz" theory :-)
Old 27th November 2016
  #27
Lives for gear
As it happens I am selling my hi end loudspeaker cables. For lets say 1000,- € per cable they are yours. They are 6m long and have blank ends sealed against corrosion with an alcoholic fluid containing moondust (from the dark side, of course).

They are multiple times blessed by a high- ranking catholic official and by a zen-master, 10 years broken in and as a side-effect they will take the aura of the room they are in to the next level. The magnetic field they create works on special parts of the brain and enhances so the creativity of people working in that room immensely.

PM me if you are interested. (I accept only cash in an enevelope.)
Old 27th November 2016
  #28
Gear Addict
 

My concern with threads like this is that encourages those with more money than sense to spend it in the wrong areas.

$300 cables are not cheap cables anyway and spending $6000 on speaker cables is insane.
Old 28th November 2016
  #29
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Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiop View Post
Are there any boxes on the costly cables?

I would check impedance of both cables and measure frequency response at the speaker terminals for starters.
No dodgy boxes on the speaker cables, just very thick and very well-made cables - partialy silver, partialy copper.

It's the cable at the bottom of the page. Believe it or not - in the setup I used them - the describtion of their sound quality is spot on.

Acoustic Zen | Products

However, if a speaker cable with dodgy boxes would have made as big difference as the AZ cable did, I would have bought it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiop View Post
Also often when there actually is a real difference at play, it is a pure frequency response difference... Or a small level difference. You don't want to pay 6 grands for that.. ;-)
For me, there where two important things to consider when I tested the cables. First, will there be an audible difference at all? Second, if so how big is it?

And in the setup I was listening to; yes, there definitely was an audible different and it was not subtle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rowmat View Post
My concern with threads like this is that encourages those with more money than sense to spend it in the wrong areas.
People can spend their money as they wish, I have not problem with that. What I wanted to highlight with this thread was that choosing very well-made speaker cables, or even just upgrading your cables to something better than you're using now, really can make a difference.

I've been doing music production for twenty years, improving my studio setup for as many years, reviewing studio speakers for different trade magazines for fifteen years, done all the mistakes one can make when it comes to building a control room and have a pretty good room now, constantly improving the quality of my gear and speaker setup.

I had a long contemplation about whether to change my speakers or not, but after hearing the TADs, and my company having had a good year, I had to go for them.

As I've previously stated, I had no intention on buying expensive speaker cables, at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rowmat View Post
$300 cables are not cheap cables anyway and spending $6000 on speaker cables is insane.
I agree with you, and I've been thinking of all the things I could have bought instead of the cables. Still I had to buy them after listening through them for a whole day and hearing how little they degraded the sound stage compared to the other speaker cables.

So, apart from bragging and justifying to myself, buying super expensive speaker cables, I guess, what I wanted to achieve with this thread was to hopefully inspire some of you to try out well-made speaker cables with your passive speakers.

Can speaker cables make a difference or not? Yes, they can! And the difference isn't small.

I'm not saying that expensive speaker cables will make your speakers sound better, all I'm saying as that well-made speaker cables will have less negative impact on your sound reproduction, depending on what speakers and amps you use.

The only way for you to know, is to try out a pair of well-make speaker cables yourself.


Cheers
Fred
Sound On Sound contributor
Old 28th November 2016
  #30
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TheBrightSide's Avatar
 

If I was to spend 6K on cables, I would also look at upgrading the internal wiring of the monitors. Because there is NO WAY that the TAD's have 6 grand worth of wiring inside. If I was going to use super expensive cables, I would want the monitors to at least have equal quality wiring. It makes sense if you put so much emphasis on quality cabling.
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