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Reaper Master Track clipping sounds fabulous!
Old 6th August 2017
  #31
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trashman's Avatar
 

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@mattiasnyc

What do you think is happening here with what I'm describing?
Old 7th August 2017
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiospacific2 View Post
well relative to the loudest track that was mixed.

I can see why is there a school of thought around this: LUFS. But applying it as a paint by numbers method for one genre might make those mixes not have the individuality they deserved.
I absolutely agree. My view on it is an that of an "older' guy's. I prefer albums that are coherent works of art where the album as a whole has a sound or purpose or approach, and where each song is allowed to be what it needs to be within that context. I don't care at all about absolute loudness. As a matter of fact I generally find that contemporary music wears out my ears way faster than more dynamic older music.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiospacific2 View Post
Don't give me wrong, but couldn't this be done using a lookahead AGC limiter? Granted there could be a guideline defining what is required, but does that guideline work with every sound, no matter if it is dialogue or music ?
Nobody is requiring the use of LUFS as a measurement for mixing as far as I know. Same with mastering. The only actual regulation based on a standard refers to television and advertising.

I was only reflecting on what a possible use of it was. I have zero problem with people ignoring it. On the other hand using RMS doesn't make more sense really. It's pretty much the same thing conceptually (meaning that you're using a quasi-accurate loudness measurement).
Old 7th August 2017
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trashman View Post
@mattiasnyc

What do you think is happening here with what I'm describing?
I have no idea. I saw the thread title and read the thread and the term LUFS caught my eye. I'm sorry if I moved your thread in the wrong direction.

Quite frankly I don't fully understand what you're saying in your first two posts.
Old 1 week ago
  #34
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For what it's worth, Reaper uses floating point math for audio.
This means that clipping *inside the box* is not possible. You could normalize an audio item to +100 dBFS, then use a plugin to pad it down to 0 dBFS, and there would be absolutely no clipping.

There are only 3 situations where clipping can occur in Reaper:
1) Recording at greater than 0 dBFS (the clipping will happen in the audio interface A/D converter)
2) Rendering a mix to a fixed-point audio mode, such as 24 bit or 16 bit audio (clipping happens in the math due to the limits of fixed-point math)
3) Outputing a mix at greater than 0 dBFS (clipping happens in the audio interface D/A converter)
Old 1 week ago
  #35
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Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philbo King View Post
For what it's worth, Reaper uses floating point math for audio.
This means that clipping *inside the box* is not possible. You could normalize an audio item to +100 dBFS, then use a plugin to pad it down to 0 dBFS, and there would be absolutely no clipping.

There are only 3 situations where clipping can occur in Reaper:
1) Recording at greater than 0 dBFS (the clipping will happen in the audio interface A/D converter)
2) Rendering a mix to a fixed-point audio mode, such as 24 bit or 16 bit audio (clipping happens in the math due to the limits of fixed-point math)
3) Outputing a mix at greater than 0 dBFS (clipping happens in the audio interface D/A converter)
That's it then!

I'm pushing Reaper well into the "red" yet my DAC has such high headroom it isn't clipping. Even when my DAC kisses the red, the saturation sounds lovely.

The only clipping that is really concerning is recording.

No wonder the mixes are loud and ballsy. I'm not rendering internally. Ha!!!!

This is the trick then. Push your DAC. More headroom in your DAC = "louder" mixes.
Old 1 week ago
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trashman View Post
I'm not rendering internally. Ha!!!!
How are you rendering then, out of your DAC and into another ADC and then what?
Old 6 days ago
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trashman View Post
That's it then!

I'm pushing Reaper well into the "red" yet my DAC has such high headroom it isn't clipping. Even when my DAC kisses the red, the saturation sounds lovely.

The only clipping that is really concerning is recording.

No wonder the mixes are loud and ballsy. I'm not rendering internally. Ha!!!!

This is the trick then. Push your DAC. More headroom in your DAC = "louder" mixes.
That's not really how it works.
Old 6 days ago
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mattiasnyc View Post
That's not really how it works.
Haha!!

I was wondering why I was getting super loud mixes that were full and rich. I started ignoring the Reaper meters and just watching my DAC.


I've been using DAW since Cool Edit Pro and Cubase introduced "4 channels of audio!!"

Never have my mixes been so full and loud.

Just trusting my ears brought me to a new plateau.

There's something to this. The metering isn't accurate or calibrated or something. Whatever the case is, it's much better for me now.

Thank you for your insight.
Old 6 days ago
  #39
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How are you printing? What is your chain after your DAC?
Old 6 days ago
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lumbergh View Post
How are you printing? What is your chain after your DAC?
It depends.

I have to run a few more tests.

DAC out to ADC in.

Sometimes it's just out to in.

I need to test this internal rendering to out to in.

All I know is that my Reaper master meters are way into the red and yet the analog sounds great!
Old 5 days ago
  #41
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Pardon my noobness at this aspect, but how would I render this output from the interface (with the DAC "saturation" in the file) ?

Never done this before! Always just render .wav's internally from Reaper (pre-DAC).
Old 5 days ago
  #42
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Clipping the dac is basically the same as digital clipping in the daw.
(Ie...you're clipping the digital input, not the analog output)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Philbo King View Post
For what it's worth, Reaper uses floating point math for audio.
This means that clipping *inside the box* is not possible.
Unless you are using a plugin that clips...

Last edited by stinkyfingers; 5 days ago at 10:22 AM..
Old 5 days ago
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stinkyfingers View Post
Clipping the dac is basically the same as digital clipping in the daw.
Some converters have a soft clip option though, and unless that's analog it'd be quite inaccurate a description.

So i think maybe that's what he's doing; he's using the soft analog clipping of the converter.
Old 4 days ago
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stinkyfingers View Post

Unless you are using a plugin that clips...
True
Old 4 days ago
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Philbo King View Post
True
I don't think so.
Old 4 days ago
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mattiasnyc View Post
I don't think so.
If you use an amp sim or distortion ot fuzz or saturation plugin you can definitely clip the audio... That's what they do.
Old 4 days ago
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mattiasnyc View Post
Some converters have a soft clip option though, and unless that's analog it'd be quite inaccurate a description.

So i think maybe that's what he's doing; he's using the soft analog clipping of the converter.
Soft limit/clip is in the ADC.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattiasnyc View Post
I don't think so.
There are plugins clip at 0dBFS. are you saying there are none ?
Old 4 days ago
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trashman View Post
Haha!!

I was wondering why I was getting super loud mixes that were full and rich. I started ignoring the Reaper meters and just watching my DAC.


I've been using DAW since Cool Edit Pro and Cubase introduced "4 channels of audio!!"

Never have my mixes been so full and loud.

Just trusting my ears brought me to a new plateau.

There's something to this. The metering isn't accurate or calibrated or something. Whatever the case is, it's much better for me now.

Thank you for your insight.
What's your AD/DA converter or audio interface?
Do you drive/clip the DA or AD stage?
Old 4 days ago
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Philbo King View Post
If you use an amp sim or distortion ot fuzz or saturation plugin you can definitely clip the audio... That's what they do.
Sorry, I completely misread that reply of yours. That's what I get for posting late at night...
Old 4 days ago
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stinkyfingers View Post
Soft limit/clip is in the ADC.
Exactly. I'm just saying that if you're using a soft clip in an ADC it's going to be in the analog domain as far as I can tell, not digital.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stinkyfingers View Post
There are plugins clip at 0dBFS. are you saying there are none ?
See above.
Old 4 days ago
  #51
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Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by mattiasnyc View Post
Some converters have a soft clip option though, and unless that's analog it'd be quite inaccurate a description.

So i think maybe that's what he's doing; he's using the soft analog clipping of the converter.
Actually, I'm not.

I'm seeing something with gain staging and metering within Reaper.

For over two decades, I've been looking at the meters in a DAW as if they were God. They aren't.

I use Izotope insight and it's different. And the loudness is different with different DACs.

My Dangerous Audio DAC, is different from my Apogee DAC is different from my Mackie DAC.

I think what's happening is that the relationship between the Reaper meter and the DAC is not as accurate as one might think.

You have to use your ears.
Old 4 days ago
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trashman View Post
Actually, I'm not.

I'm seeing something with gain staging and metering within Reaper.

For over two decades, I've been looking at the meters in a DAW as if they were God. They aren't.

I use Izotope insight and it's different. And the loudness is different with different DACs.

My Dangerous Audio DAC, is different from my Apogee DAC is different from my Mackie DAC.

I think what's happening is that the relationship between the Reaper meter and the DAC is not as accurate as one might think.

You have to use your ears.
You're either misunderstanding how things work or not expressing yourself clearly i think.

You really should break down everything into different steps in order to understand what's going on.
Old 2 days ago
  #53
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Thread Starter
I'm pushing the master fader well into the red yet my DAC is not clipping.

It sounds fabulous!

For so many years, I was avoiding any red in Reaper.

What I've noticed is that in the red AD clipping does sound horrible.

Clipping the rest of the way through is hit or miss: my plugs for example, are all designed to operate optimally at -18dbfs.

I guess, according to the idea stated above, with floating point math, Reaper "can't clip", and that it's the DAC that's clipping when you hear the nasty clipping? That is, the DAC receives ugly zeros and ones and that's what you hear. It doesn't "fix" it.

QUOTE FROM ABOVE:

There are only 3 situations where clipping can occur in Reaper:
1) Recording at greater than 0 dBFS (the clipping will happen in the audio interface A/D converter)
2) Rendering a mix to a fixed-point audio mode, such as 24 bit or 16 bit audio (clipping happens in the math due to the limits of fixed-point math)
3) Outputing a mix at greater than 0 dBFS (clipping happens in the audio interface D/A converter)"


So, I'm guessing a high quality DAC has something to do with this or the Reaper metering isn't correct somehow or ??


Something is definitely strange. I push the Reaper meter well into the red and eventually I hear the clipping distortion that's unacceptable.

Perhaps it's a calibration thing? Could be. It happens across all my Dacs.

Anyway, this is why I'm now basically ignoring Reaper metering on my master bus and focusing on Izotope Insight.

Last edited by trashman; 2 days ago at 03:57 PM..
Old 2 days ago
  #54
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And where in the signal chain do you have your insight meters and what do they show?
Old 2 days ago
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mattiasnyc View Post
And where in the signal chain do you have your insight meters and what do they show?
In the context of this discussion, on my master bus!

They show all sorts of things!

The interesting thing is that they don't match what Reaper shows.

I'll do some more tests this week. I've been busy building out my studio desk, integrating a 46 channel Dangerous Audio summing setup and patching in / learning 6 fairly complex new synths.

I've barely had time for much software work these last few weeks. I'm going from fragmented memories from a month back.
Old 2 days ago
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trashman View Post
In the context of this discussion, on my master bus!

They show all sorts of things!
I know Insight very well, I own it and have used it for verifying levels for broadcast content for years.

Now, in different DAWs the inserts are possibly placed differently in the signal chain. Your master bus meters in Reaper may show something differently if they're measuring the signal post-fader, and your inserted Insight might be pre-fader.

I'm just pushing this issue because when people read posts like yours there's a risk that if you're not being clear people might end up doing things that are actually "damaging" their audio. That's why it's good to be clear when talking about it and recommending workflows to other users.

So I think you should read through the documentation and figure out where different metering is placed in the signal chain, because it makes a difference. And then note the levels that are shown.
Old 2 days ago
  #57
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Oh ok

Have a nice day!
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