The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
I think I'm just gonna start my own record label...
Old 7th October 2020 | Show parent
  #151
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
There just aren't. Once you start achieving that kind of income you are already in the label system and already on radio.
I mean, I've put out tracks on a number of labels like Spinnin, who are distributed by a major, but its an indie act doing their own thing with no major label affiliation, putting tracks out as one-offs on whatever is the most appropriate label for that track.

You're kinda the same. There are a number of labels who could put out your material with major label distro. Are you a major label artist then?

What's happened is that majors have recognized that a great business model is to facilitate the underground without any dictation on their part. They're taking a small percentage off the top in return for resources, while letting labels and artists do whatever they want. Its the best and most DIY major label business model yet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Sure you can release music in an instant, but it's veery, very hard to get people to listen to it. Not me saying that, that's what most people say, which is why there are so many 'how to grow your audience' blogs out there. You make more money blogging about Spotify, than you do releasing on Spotify - the gospel truth.
I don't think getting heard is any harder now than at any other point in time. And the blog market is as competitive as the music making market, there are a million blogs with 100 views. Your take is super pessimistic right now man.
Old 8th October 2020 | Show parent
  #152
Gear Guru
 
chrisso's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by newguy1 View Post

You're kinda the same. There are a number of labels who could put out your material with major label distro. Are you a major label artist then?
No, the major labels have recognised it appears cooler to release under a pseudo indie banner. It's like boutique beer. It looks like it came from a garage brewery in Kent, but is made in the Heineken factory in reality.

Quote:
I don't think getting heard is any harder now than at any other point in time. And the blog market is as competitive as the music making market, there are a million blogs with 100 views. Your take is super pessimistic right now man.
I'm not 'super pessimistic'. My view is based on observation. There is a mountain of written matter by hobbyists and professional musicians saying they can't get their music heard under a tsunami of DIY releases. Something like 20% of Spotify releases never get a single play, not one.
Thousands of people subscribe to Youtube vlogs on how to 'build your Spotify' numbers, or 'how to get more attention' to your music. If it was easier than before there would be no huge demand for such blogs.
Old 8th October 2020
  #153
Gear Nut
 
🎧 5 years
There's plenty of online resources to help you write songs that have potential popular appeal. Most songs I listen to that aren't popular are obviously flawed.

I was lucky enough to grow up in the heydays of WBCN (Boston) which played hits several weeks before they played on my local rock station WAAF (which sucked). The original program director still does podcasts: http://www.oedipus1.com/home/
There was also WFNX and several awesome semi-commercial college stations.

Nowadays search out "freeform" radio stations. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freeform_radio
Old 8th October 2020 | Show parent
  #154
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
No, the major labels have recognised it appears cooler to release under a pseudo indie banner. It's like boutique beer. It looks like it came from a garage brewery in Kent, but is made in the Heineken factory in reality.
They’re signing existing successful underground indie labels, and giving them additional resources without imposing any creative input.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
I'm not 'super pessimistic'. My view is based on observation. There is a mountain of written matter by hobbyists and professional musicians saying they can't get their music heard under a tsunami of DIY releases. Something like 20% of Spotify releases never get a single play, not one.
Thousands of people subscribe to Youtube vlogs on how to 'build your Spotify' numbers, or 'how to get more attention' to your music. If it was easier than before there would be no huge demand for such blogs.
Thousands of people bought books on how to break through in the industry before. In my little hometown bookstore growing up there’d be multiple copies of six different books on the music business.

I don’t know if it’s any easier, i just know DIY artists have more market share than ever.
Old 8th October 2020 | Show parent
  #155
Gear Guru
 
chrisso's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by RoadRanger View Post
There's plenty of online resources to help you write songs that have potential popular appeal. Most songs I listen to that aren't popular are obviously flawed.
Write what you are passionate about. Don't chase popularity.
1920's and 30's Blues wasn't popular in it's day. Now it resides in the US National Library sound archive as hugely valuable music.
Old 8th October 2020 | Show parent
  #156
Gear Guru
 
chrisso's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by newguy1 View Post
i just know DIY artists have more market share than ever.
How do you measure that?
As far as I am aware, having actually researched it, the top 10% of pop artists are earning 90% of the money in music. Like the rest of society, the inequality has actually widened.
Old 8th October 2020 | Show parent
  #157
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
How do you measure that?
As far as I am aware, having actually researched it, the top 10% of pop artists are earning 90% of the money in music. Like the rest of society, the inequality has actually widened.
DIY is the fastest growing market share in the business. I posted one article yesterday guess you didn’t check it. Here’s another.

https://www.hypebot.com/hypebot/2020...grew-11-4.html

Artists without labels were the fastest-growing segment of the market, growing 32.1% in 2019. In 2015, this category was just 1.7% of the overall recorded music market.“
Old 8th October 2020 | Show parent
  #158
Gear Guru
 
chrisso's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:

Of the overall $2.15 billion, 4.1% or $873 million went to what the survey calls “Artists direct” or DIY artists without a record label deal.
4.1% of income!
When you think how many more millions of diy artists there are than signed artists, then split 4.1% of the income between those millions of artists.....?
Quite shocking and supports what I've been saying.
10% of the industry is making 90% of the income.
Old 8th October 2020 | Show parent
  #159
Gear Guru
 
chrisso's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Currently, Spotify pays out by adding up all of their income and dividing it based on how much each artist is streamed. That payment system obviously favors popular artists instead of independent musicians.
https://www.altpress.com/news/spotif...endent-artist/
Old 8th October 2020 | Show parent
  #160
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
4.1% of income!
When you think how many more millions of diy artists there are than signed artists, then split 4.1% of the income between those millions of artists.....?
Quite shocking and supports what I've been saying.
10% of the industry is making 90% of the income.
It’s more market share than DIY has ever had. Your point has been that things are regressing for DIY.
Old 8th October 2020 | Show parent
  #161
Gear Guru
 
chrisso's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
No, no, no... My point IS that things have regressed for average musicians, and for musicians trying to make more challenging music, innovate.
DIY didn't really exist before - that's why.
Niche musicians and those innovating signed to indie labels in the 80's and 90's.
Sure, you no longer need an indie label, but the flip side is it's not going to afford you a career.
The point really is 4.1% of income, comparing the vast amount of DIY artists to signed artists. Which is exactly what I said.
Old 8th October 2020 | Show parent
  #162
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
No, no, no... My point IS that things have regressed for average musicians, and for musicians trying to make more challenging music, innovate.
DIY didn't really exist before - that's why.
Niche musicians and those innovating signed to indie labels in the 80's and 90's.
Sure, you no longer need an indie label, but the flip side is it's not going to afford you a career.
The point really is 4.1% of income, comparing the vast amount of DIY artists to signed artists. Which is exactly what I said.
4.1% of income? You’re reading things wrong.

DIY had 4.1% of the $2.1 billion increase in recorded music revenue in 2019.

Indie artists as a whole have 32.5% of the increase, 4.1% of that is DIY, and majors have 67.5% of the increase.

Yeah DIY has gone from non-existence to nearly a billion in yearly revenue over the last few years. That’s not bad man.
Old 8th October 2020
  #163
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Did @ chrisso things start regressing for musicians in the Napster era or before?
Old 8th October 2020 | Show parent
  #164
Gear Guru
 
chrisso's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
DIY artists earned $873 million in 2019.
Divide by the hundreds of thousands of DIYers, then see how far 26,000 per DIYer goes, being the average wage of working people.
33,500 could have earned average income - globally!

Just for fun, if you divide that by a four piece band, 8,400 DIY global bands made an average living last year.
There are probably 8,400 DIY bands in California.
Old 8th October 2020 | Show parent
  #165
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
DIY artists earned $873 million in 2019.
Divide by the hundreds of thousands of DIYers, then see how far 26,000 per DIYer goes, being the average wage of working people.
33,500 could have earned average income - globally!

Just for fun, if you divide that by a four piece band, 8,400 DIY global bands made an average living last year.
There are probably 8,400 DIY bands in California.
I mean, that’s infinitely better than zero. Mathematically at least.

You’re framing a gain of nearly one billion dollars a year and growing in money as a bad thing?
Old 8th October 2020 | Show parent
  #166
Gear Guru
 
chrisso's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by boombapdame View Post
Did @ chrisso things start regressing for musicians in the Napster era or before?
It really hit the wall with Napster, but 'Psycho Monkey' was right earlier. The music industry had started to consolidate by the early 90's. Investors and money men pushed out the music fans in management and a ruthless regime of signing and promoting pop acts came into being, while anything else got dropped.
Napster and then streaming really killed off most independents.
It's a truism - and widely accepted. Since piracy and streaming, there is no longer any income in recording. It all became about the live show.
Actually, the latest trend is ripping music from Youtube, and piracy has come back roaring, after receding for a while thanks to streaming.
Old 8th October 2020 | Show parent
  #167
Gear Guru
 
chrisso's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by newguy1 View Post
I mean, that’s infinitely better than zero. Mathematically at least.
Sure, you can say whatever you like. I'm talking to people who can't afford to be musicians any more. I'm seeing young bands making very little money while making great music. My heart bleeds for them.
It was supposed to be the golden age for independent music, but instead - like Amazon and Facebook (Bezos and Zuckerberg) a guy came along with a way to pay the workers (musicians) as little as possible, while raking in billions for themselves.
It's an unequal relationship. It is a broken market.
Old 8th October 2020 | Show parent
  #168
Gear Guru
 
chrisso's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
A study carried out by PRS for Music has found that overall usage of stream-ripping services dramatically increased by 1390% between 2016 and 2019, overshadowing all other illegal online music activity in the UK.
https://www.recordoftheday.com/news-...in-three-years

I think it dramatically increased during lockdown.
Old 8th October 2020 | Show parent
  #169
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Sure, you can say whatever you like. I'm talking to people who can't afford to be musicians any more. I'm seeing young bands making very little money while making great music. My heart bleeds for them.
It was supposed to be the golden age for independent music, but instead - like Amazon and Facebook (Bezos and Zuckerberg) a guy came along with a way to pay the workers (musicians) as little as possible, while raking in billions for themselves.
It's an unequal relationship. It is a broken market.
The billion probably means there’s a few 100 or so acts full time that wouldn’t otherwise be, with a lot of other people making some small money they wouldn’t have otherwise made.

The past equivalent would be selling your own cassettes and CDs at shows or in the local section of the record store.

I really don’t know what’s better or worse.
Old 8th October 2020
  #170
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
I'm @ chrisso saddened by the fact that there is no income in recording.
Old 8th October 2020 | Show parent
  #171
Gear Head
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
For most people there is no money in it anyway - you are right.
If you are going to spend weeks and months slaving over your music, you at least want a chance for people to hear it.

The simple fact is the label system was criticized for heavily curating the music that was released. They were called 'gatekeepers'.
But it turns out post-streaming that the public still value curation. People don't have time to trawl through a thousand tracks to find one they like, so they turn to 'influencers' and 'playlists'.
It's cheaper to record and publish your track, but that's about all that has changed.
Curation is good. Most music is mediocre, not bad, not terrible, just not exciting enough to invest time into.

Because most "people don't have time to trawl though thousand tracks to find one they like" indie musicians need to master the marketing aspect of their business to build a solid fanbase that streams their music over and over regardless of the curation - put the music in front of the right people. But again, the music can't be mediocre or it will only get listened to once or twice.
Old 8th October 2020 | Show parent
  #172
Gear Head
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
This is so silly. Everyone understands the formula. If it was just the above, everyone would be having successful careers making hit records.
A studio guitarist once told me a funny story...
He was working on a record when the band's manager burst into the room and said "hey, I've got a great idea for a hit song". Everyone stopped eager to hear the idea - which turned out to be "we need a great hook, a great melody and great lyrics, then we get a great producer in."

It's like no one knows any of this?

The problem is everyone is doing it. No one sets out to make a bad product and NOT build a loyal audience.
It's how you do it when there are no gigs and Spotify is working against you.
that is the crux of it.

(FWIW, I am trying to make a great product. I'm not giving up. I am trying to monetise it and have watched all the vlogs and used many of the methods. But it's not about me. I don't expect to be 'successful, doing what I am doing and at my age. I'm just expressing what I'm seeing with years of experience. It was always fatal for music as a while when musicians stopped making music they were passionate about and tried to appeal to a wider audience. If you were George Michael or Prince and passionate about pop, then you made amazing pop records and were successful. If you weren't passionate about pop and were just trying to be successful, it always failed. That's EXACTLY why so many artists changing their music to suit the Spotify algorithm is a bad sign for music).
You're right, that is a silly formula...it's the work in between that makes the difference.

Most musicians, the vast majority of them make mediocre product. Even top musicians in major labels. How many time have you bought an album on the strength of the one or two singles and found the album to have another half dozen duds? And those were the duds that were good enough for the album. Your mom and some friends might listen more than once to a mediocre song, but strangers won't.

Most indie musicians have no idea how to create a loyal fan base. How do I know? I go to their shows and talk to them. I look at their socials. And the most important - they don't have access to funding that would allow them to market to BIG numbers. Spending $10 to boost a post isn't marketing. Or spending $50 targeting east India for get more likes.

Monetizing it. You're right, Spotify's algorithm works against you. I had to use Spotify's API to write an app that gave me more control so I could drive songs to more fan generated playlists. It wasn't cheap. The cost of fan acquisition was very high, but it allowed me to have access to the fan in away that let me monetize them outside of Spot, thus upselling them as well as making personal connections with them outside of Spotify.

But, I am one voice in a chorus of voices and my experiences will be different.
Old 8th October 2020
  #173
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
If @ BStone most musicians make mediocre product, it would have been good for them to 'fess up to that in interviews in the 90s/00s/10s.
Old 8th October 2020 | Show parent
  #174
Gear Head
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Really? Most of the musicians I know are working much longer hours for much less money. This goes back historically too. back in the studio days it was common to work from 10am to 4 or 5am the following morning. Often working 6 to 7 days a week.
I can't price my hours because the return on income would be miserable.
My plumber charges £48 an hour and works 8 am to 4pm.
I often work 8am to 8pm at least, and again, most days of the week.
I'm not earning £500 a day, nothing like £2500 a week.
The Musicians Union say that 56% of UK musicians earn less than £20,000 a year, while the UK's average salary for all jobs is £29,000.
Allow me to clarify. I am talking about the musicians and bands that get together 2x per week for 2 hours to practice, play 3 maybe 4 gigs per month for 2 hours in week. And don't do a single thing regarding their music business and then complain there is no money to be made. Which is, in my experience the vast majority of musicians. They put in maybe 6-10 hours in a week collectively and expect to make full time incomes.

The musicians I know that do put in full time hours into their music careers, make full time incomes. It doesn't mean they're rich. But it's their only source of income which pays for the recording, marketing, tours, and pays their rent, food etc. In my circle, they account for maybe 20% of the musicians.

Regardless, it's a tough business and I am glad to be on the backside towards slowly retiring and enjoying the fruits of my labors.
Old 8th October 2020 | Show parent
  #175
Gear Head
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
which is why there are so many 'how to grow your audience' blogs out there. You make more money blogging about Spotify, than you do releasing on Spotify - the gospel truth.
I tell the youngins all the time; the best way to make money in the music industry is to sell **** to musicians!
Old 9th October 2020 | Show parent
  #176
Gear Guru
 
chrisso's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by BStone View Post
How many time have you bought an album on the strength of the one or two singles and found the album to have another half dozen duds? And those were the duds that were good enough for the album. Your mom and some friends might listen more than once to a mediocre song, but strangers won't.
But this is the problem I have. Musicians don't set out to write, record and produce duds.
If you look at any 'what is your favourite Paul McCartney song' lists, or your favourite Guns n Roses list - you will see a wide variety of fans list a wide variety of songs. One man's dud is another man's masterpiece.
An album is best when it is a mix of catchier, instantly gratifying tunes, and some deeper, more challenging tunes.
I just think it is always a mistake to judge an album by the one or two hits and declare every other track a 'dud'.
It just doesn't work that way.
Some artists were producing reams of 'duds' 50 years ago. But what it really was was innovation that no one understood at the time. Now that work is valued and cherished.
Old 9th October 2020 | Show parent
  #177
Moderator
 
psycho_monkey's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by boombapdame View Post
If @ BStone most musicians make mediocre product, it would have been good for them to 'fess up to that in interviews in the 90s/00s/10s.
I think you’re missing the point; musicians making mediocre product couldn’t get arrested, let one an interview, during those periods.

You only heard from those putting out quality work (in general); at least, quality enough for someone else to invest in.
Old 9th October 2020
  #178
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Thanks @ psycho_monkey for clarity.
Old 22nd October 2020 | Show parent
  #179
Gear Maniac
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
It's happening. It's just that the underground has always been tough to kill. But the underground is releasing music and earning $500 a year from it.

The 'underground' had hit records via radio -
Talking Heads, Stakker Humanoid, Devo, Joy Division, Public Enemy, Funkadelic, even Weather Report for chrissakes.

Spotify is there to keep people on the site, so therefore like all internet tech, it is more interested in the absolute most popular artists, and has no interest in the underground.
At the dawn of the internet it was touted as the great dem0cratiser.
Sure, any DIY artist can publish their music. But if it leads nowhere there becomes a point where it's a waste of time. Exposure does not equal a career.
This is true of all internet businesses, whether you are a writer or film maker.
how do you figure 'underground' records being on major labels?
Old 23rd October 2020 | Show parent
  #180
Gear Guru
 
chrisso's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by user i477533222 View Post
how do you figure 'underground' records being on major labels?
Because back in the day many label employees were music fans. Now they are money focused business people.
Also, labels saw a value in having a diverse and 'cool' stable of artists.
I played with artists who never sold a lot of records or made much money, but label bosses pursued them because they believed in their 'art'.
Very commercial artists often had a choice between several labels to sign their first record deal. Often they chose the label that had the 'cool' roster, or the artist roster they personally identified with.
Lot's of very commercial pop artists liked left field music, and would sign to a label with a few uncommercial artists they admired.
📝 Reply
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
🖨️ Show Printable Version
✉️ Email this Page
🔍 Search thread
🎙️ View mentioned gear
Forum Jump
Forum Jump