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What is the current way to distribute music and get paid?
Old 8th February 2020
  #151
Quote:
Originally Posted by piano View Post
Exactly! Why should we buy expensive gear, expensive recording instrument and build expensive recording studios if the record it yields pays NOTHING?!

If the record pays nothing --- why should we care about the quality of the music recording. Here on GS, there are many guys who own gear valued in the multiple $100,000's. What for when you can still produce something passable with cheap gear. After all no one is going to pay you for that record.

Music records need to be a product you BUY again --- movies pay and pay well. Why not music?!

The company or person that figures out the solution on how to charge for music again will be well rewarded.

CRAFTING a song or recording is HARD work. Why are we not paid for record sales? Why do we accept this?
in principle I agree with what you're saying, the main problem is once the genie has left the bottle it's never going back in, free music is too easy to access, google play a huge part in illegal downloading and piracy, they are not exactly stopping any of it, I think it's finally time for goverment to step in and start moderating the internet, mostly for intellectual properties such as music, films, art, photography e.t.c to make it very unappealing for anyone or companies who encourage illegal downloading and piracy, that includes software are well.
Old 10th February 2020
  #152
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Master Moss View Post
Some pretty huge historic acts have had lyrics that are indecipherable or it is completely subjective what the song is ‘about’, the Beatles and Nirvana coming to mind..
"Mother Nature is a w h o r e" lmao
Old 11th February 2020
  #153
Quote:
Originally Posted by pencilextremist View Post
in principle I agree with what you're saying, the main problem is once the genie has left the bottle it's never going back in, free music is too easy to access, google play a huge part in illegal downloading and piracy, they are not exactly stopping any of it, I think it's finally time for goverment to step in and start moderating the internet, mostly for intellectual properties such as music, films, art, photography e.t.c to make it very unappealing for anyone or companies who encourage illegal downloading and piracy, that includes software are well.
That’s a very dangerous path you’re suggesting.

Which I don’t really want to go down here since we don’t do politics - other than to say the “government” doesn’t exist as far as the net is concerned, because it’s global.
Old 12th February 2020
  #154
Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
Which I don’t really want to go down here since we don’t do politics - other than to say the “government” doesn’t exist as far as the net is concerned, because it’s global.
Moves are afoot, by large degree because of other societal issues.
Self regulation clearly hasn't worked and we saw that straight away in the music scenario. Companies that were too powerful to question just took what they wanted, despite how it affected the workers (musicians).
I think they more politely call it 'disruption'.
Old 12th February 2020
  #155
Lives for gear
 
memristor's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
we don’t do politics - other than to say the “government” doesn’t exist as far as the net is concerned, because it’s global.
that view is so 1990's... Meanwhile, for instance the US net is affected by EU law, and vice versa. China, large part of the world, has its own "inter"net, Russia is able to disconnect the countries net from the internet.

So governments have a lot of influence on the net. Or take the issue of net neutrality - we don't have that anymore either.

what @ pencilextremist is suggesting is already happing with EU upload filters, legislation from the EU which will be implemented by companies from the US.


/politix
Old 12th February 2020
  #156
Quote:
Originally Posted by memristor View Post
that view is so 1990's... Meanwhile, for instance the US net is affected by EU law, and vice versa. China, large part of the world, has its own "inter"net, Russia is able to disconnect the countries net from the internet.

So governments have a lot of influence on the net. Or take the issue of net neutrality - we don't have that anymore either.

what @ pencilextremist is suggesting is already happing with EU upload filters, legislation from the EU which will be implemented by companies from the US.


/politix
I get that, but I still don’t want to discuss it further
Old 12th February 2020
  #157
Lives for gear
 
memristor's Avatar
 

understood. But if politics is the struggle for influence on the distribution of ressources, the topic at hand is political...

so it's difficult to draw the line here...

What I wonder if technical skills, or rather virtuosity, will play a bigger role again in the future.
Old 12th February 2020
  #158
It already does I think.
People will only pay for a live show, and with so much competition live shows have to be fantastic.
Older musicians like me who have earned our stripes playing live for years are much more in demand than we were ten years ago.
There has never been more 50-70 year old musicians on the road.
Which is bad really, as it should be about young musicians, and we should be enjoying our retirement.
But it's a reality.
Old 12th February 2020
  #159
Gear Head
 
IGotWorms's Avatar
 

Old 20th February 2020
  #160
Gear Maniac
Quote:
Originally Posted by piano View Post
Exactly! Why should we buy expensive gear, expensive recording instrument and build expensive recording studios if the record it yields pays NOTHING?!

If the record pays nothing --- why should we care about the quality of the music recording. Here on GS, there are many guys who own gear valued in the multiple $100,000's. What for when you can still produce something passable with cheap gear. After all no one is going to pay you for that record.

Music records need to be a product you BUY again --- movies pay and pay well. Why not music?!

The company or person that figures out the solution on how to charge for music again will be well rewarded.

CRAFTING a song or recording is HARD work. Why are we not paid for record sales? Why do we accept this?
If you are being asked for a commission and they're refusing to pay, you might have a point.

However, if you're doing this and buying expensive equipment because you think it will make you money and you're working hard thinking you will make money .. and you're failing to, then perhaps it was just an enthusiastic mistake on your own behalf.

I see making music as like having an Etsy store.. Just because you're putting lots of effort and money into a product, doesn't earn you a right to force people to buy your stuff.

In the music industry, there a millions of hopeful musicians and cheap. bedroom set-up mean they all can produce work. Perhaps failure to make money will encourage people to drop out of scene and for there to be less competition.

I personally blame the culture of "If I just try harder, I deserve to make money!" It's false, a con by all these wealth creation, self-improvment gurus out there selling you their courses and books.

Make music for the love first, buy gear for your own pleasure first... then try to make money with it *first* before stepping up your time and financial investment.

Also, Maybe it's the musician who is the commodity to be sold, not their output. Use your output as marketing material so people want *you* to create something special for them , soundtracks etc
Old 20th February 2020
  #161
Gear Maniac
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
.
There has never been more 50-70 year old musicians on the road.
Which is bad really, as it should be about young musicians, and we should be enjoying our retirement.
But it's a reality.
I disagree that anyone should not allow themselves to do what they love because of some feeling that society demands they stop, like Logan's Run..

A young age should absolutely not give you rights over others - it's discrimination. Don't fall into that trap.

However. if you don't want to do it, then retirement is your choice! No one can force you to do things if you'd rather be enjoying retirement.
Old 20th February 2020
  #162
Quote:
Originally Posted by nat8808 View Post
I disagree that anyone should not allow themselves to do what they love because of some feeling that society demands they stop, like Logan's Run..

A young age should absolutely not give you rights over others - it's discrimination. Don't fall into that trap.

However. if you don't want to do it, then retirement is your choice! No one can force you to do things if you'd rather be enjoying retirement.
You're completely missing chris's point.

He's making the observation that a) older musicians can't afford to retire and b) because they're not retiring, they're not making way for younger musicians to earn their stripes. Touring is a "young man's game" because of the energy needed and the lack of personal commitments at home. Ask any parent what the worst part of touring is and it's being away from the family.
Old 20th February 2020
  #163
Yes.
Ticket sales are being sucked out of the new music system by the thousandth time The Rolling Stones, or U2, or Paul McCartney, or Bruce Springsteen play your city.
Old 20th February 2020
  #164
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memristor's Avatar
 

I wonder how much this has to do with ageing societies.
Old 20th February 2020
  #165
From the (often quite busy) people I know who are now 'senior' working musicians... The only way to make a living in the music industry right now is to tour.
So when I was 25, virtually no 40 to 60 year olds were on the road.
Now there are many thousands.
Kids want to see The Police once, or The Rolling Stones - it's an event... "I saw them" kind of thing.
McCartney's headlining Glastonbury this year.
Old 20th February 2020
  #166
Gear Maniac
 
Digiplex's Avatar
 

Maybe the democrats can form a group like
Mothers against digital downloads oh joy!
Old 20th February 2020
  #167
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blaugruen7's Avatar
I would Like to see any Numbers of how many musician can afford to go I to into retirement.
In Germany 50 percent of the jazz musicians are below 12500 euro income a year.
I would guess for 98 percentage of all musicians it's more like working until you drop. Which is fine for me because this is what I wan to do. It's about the art and not the money or success.
Old 20th February 2020
  #168
But you also deserve to be paid when you work, so you can feed yourself, pay rent etc....
Touring takes it's toll, both on the musician, and their partner/children etc...
Old 20th February 2020
  #169
Lives for snowflakes
 
12ax7's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
But you also deserve to be paid when you work, so you can feed yourself, pay rent etc....
No, you deserve to be paid when someone likes your work enough to pay the price you are willing to accept.

...And if this amount turns out to be enough for you to pay rent (etc.), then this is a good thing!

Are you seriously suggesting that simply because I need rent money means that you somehow owe me for something that you don't want?
Old 20th February 2020
  #170
Quote:
Originally Posted by 12ax7 View Post
Are you seriously suggesting that simply because I need rent money means that you somehow owe me for something that you don't want?
Nope.
I think we two have been over this multiple times to not need the fake outrage?
Yes, if I entertain you, I deserve to be paid for my work.
If I make a record that absolutely no one listens to, then no, I accept I don't get paid.
At the moment, I can put a video on Youtube that lots of people watch, and I can put a track on Spotify that is listened to a few thousand times..... and still not get paid.
Old 20th February 2020
  #171
Lives for snowflakes
 
12ax7's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Nope.
I think we two have been over this multiple times to not need the fake outrage?
Yes, if I entertain you, I deserve to be paid for my work.
If I make a record that absolutely no one listens to, then no, I accept I don't get paid.
At the moment, I can put a video on Youtube that lots of people watch, and I can put a track on Spotify that is listened to a few thousand times..... and still not get paid.
No outrage here on my end.

I agree, in that when I like somebody's art I don't mind paying for it.

I guess what I mean is that "deserve" is "in the eye of the beholder" (the "beholder" being the one "coughing up the bucks").
Old 21st February 2020
  #172
Gear Maniac
Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
You're completely missing chris's point.

He's making the observation that a) older musicians can't afford to retire and b) because they're not retiring, they're not making way for younger musicians to earn their stripes. Touring is a "young man's game" because of the energy needed and the lack of personal commitments at home. Ask any parent what the worst part of touring is and it's being away from the family.
That's your reading of his post - turns out yours is the correct one - but that is not exactly what he said at all. He didn't express any of that in his original post.

I guess someone should make a point directly so it isn't missed and only picked up on by people thinking the same way.

A lot of the reason behind 50 - 70 year olds on tour (who most likely aren't the parents tearing themselves away from their kids anyway) is about the marketting of nostalgia and resurgance of interest in recent musical history and marketting that to people in middle age who now have money and are wanting to see the bands they missed when they were young.

You hear this a lot on the good music radio stations. People come *out* of musical retirement because there is the demand.. There are quite a few '80s cruises happening now - that never happened. Gang of Four (RIP Andy Gill) or Swans headlining big venues all of a sudden as their influence is now being celebrated.. It can also be a sign of the young simply not cutting it!

Think about it - if someone can't afford to retire, can they suddenly drum up demand? No, the demand has to be there before they decide to put all that effort into touring again. It's the other way around.

Retirement: same for all freelancers, especially in the creative arts; musicians, carpenters, designers.. Where does your retirement package come from? You have to have set one up and paid into a scheme... or plan to make money or save or make investments. It's not because of the terrible treatment of musicians per se, it's probably more like that creatives aren't good with planning their finances. i'm likely going to be screwed too. In some senses, that's the pricce paid for stepping out of line in society - should have got a 9-5 (i don't believe that, but in some ways that's the unwritten rule).

If people are financially forced out of retirement, they don't have to return to their music careers. That's a choice. One can turn their hand to other things to make ends meet. It's a matter of comfort zone and enjoyment..

I disgree that touring is a young man's game. That's a matter of convention and expectation and therefore marketing (it's easy to market the expected and therefore just continue to status-quo). Personally I don't care about energy on stage and rather hear great musicianship - and I probably have more money to spend as someone in my 40s than a young person who might want to see energy. Touring doesn't mean travelling the world, nor back-to-back dates at different locations. You can stay in one place for a few nights and not move to the next for a good while. Depends on demand.. which should be the driver for any good financial desicion (it is work afterall).

Anyway, this is proably all going off on a tangent!

Last edited by nat8808; 21st February 2020 at 01:45 PM..
Old 21st February 2020
  #173
Gear Maniac
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Nope.
I think we two have been over this multiple times to not need the fake outrage?
Yes, if I entertain you, I deserve to be paid for my work.
If I make a record that absolutely no one listens to, then no, I accept I don't get paid.
At the moment, I can put a video on Youtube that lots of people watch, and I can put a track on Spotify that is listened to a few thousand times..... and still not get paid.
That track and that video can reach billions of people... people suddenly can have interst in your work, people you'd never have reached before. That does have value. It doesn't pay the bills directly, but perhaps it can be utilised to pay the bills indirectly.

How often to musicians analyse the stats of streaming or youtube views and create strategy around that?

That is part rhetorical, part real question - if someone wants to chime in to say that they do.. I'd be interested in hearing how they go about it and what actions they take.

I think it is completely wrong-headed to have the attitude of "if I entertain you, I deserve to have you pay me!" Just because you dance in front of me in the street doesn't give you the right to take my money. You can of course ask and I can choose to give you something or not.

That attitude is not going to help you figure out a way of having income off the back of your musicianship at all - it's a way to grind yourself into the ground full of resentment and frustration and hit a dead-end.

The reality for the audience is that they can go elsewhere and choose to pay for something they think has more value for them. If you're not as important for them as something else, you cant force them..

So you have a realistic choice: make use of their attention or tell the world to F-off and stop looking at you and spend loads of energy and negative thoughts trying to stop people being entertained by you unless they pay.

Make the choice, live your life as you wish. Hopefully, the negative side will make people give up and try something randomly new and out of the box.
Old 21st February 2020
  #174
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memristor's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by nat8808 View Post
How often to musicians analyse the stats of streaming or youtube views and create strategy around that?

That is part rhetorical, part real question - if someone wants to chime in to say that they do.. I'd be interested in hearing how they go about it and what actions they take.
I don't.
Stats tell my that my most played track by far is popular in Indonesia and Aegypt, Jemen.
They also tell me that people who listen to it do not listen to any other tracks.
It's a phenomenon I don't know how to deal with.
Old 21st February 2020
  #175
Gear Maniac
Quote:
Originally Posted by memristor View Post
I don't.
Stats tell my that my most played track by far is popular in Indonesia and Aegypt, Jemen.
They also tell me that people who listen to it do not listen to any other tracks.
It's a phenomenon I don't know how to deal with.
Ha! I love that.. randomness but maybe there's a reason. If you could find the reason, maybe a link on a blog or use somewhere that owes you money? Have you tried simple searches for references to the track title? Maybe there are some Indonesian web searches..
Old 21st February 2020
  #176
Lives for snowflakes
 
12ax7's Avatar
 

Why would anybody wanna go to all of trouble of making a record when you can just download one of 'em for free?
Old 21st February 2020
  #177
Lives for gear
 
memristor's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by nat8808 View Post
Ha! I love that.. randomness but maybe there's a reason. If you could find the reason, maybe a link on a blog or use somewhere that owes you money? Have you tried simple searches for references to the track title? Maybe there are some Indonesian web searches..
couldn't find anything. I assume it's shared via other channels, maybe email or something.
Old 21st February 2020
  #178
Gear Maniac
 
denstrow's Avatar
A break from the norm...

Has anyone here read Bill Drumond's 17?

Old 22nd February 2020
  #179
Quote:
Originally Posted by 12ax7 View Post
Why would anybody wanna go to all of trouble of making a record when you can just download one of 'em for free?
because presumably they have something to contribute to the artform, I do it because I love creating and without creating new music I'd be very unhappy, it makes me feel complete.
Old 22nd February 2020
  #180
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Bignatius's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by pencilextremist View Post
because presumably they have something to contribute to the artform, I do it because I love creating and without creating new music I'd be very unhappy, it makes me feel complete.
Indeed.

I make music because I want to, even feel compelled to in a sense, I must create something, and music is my outlet.

And, I make music with specific goals of "adding to a conversation", adding to what TripHop is, for instance, or DeepHouse or LoFi HipHop, etc, by "participating in that musical movement", etc...

I do this because I love these things myself, as a music fan, and have a sincere love of them, of the moods, the vibes, the subcultures and genres. Don't we all? Make music like the music we love? Or at least inspired by or meant to be similar to.

That and some marketing is all one can control...

The rest goes how it goes. 1 fan or 1+ Billion.

My satisfaction and return on investment comes before the first copy or ticket is sold, and doing it any other way seems naive at best.

ymmv
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