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"Mastering engineers" who sell mixing services.
Old 14th July 2019
  #1
"Mastering engineers" who sell mixing services.

In 2019 I live from solely mastering (which I have been for 10 years, 10 years prior to that working professionally as head engineer of a large London based audio production company.) I really enjoy the detailed specialization and mindset. Recently I do feel if I wanted to I could also mix music. I still feel as a mastering engineer that mastering is a very specialized type of sound engineering and for now continue to specialize as a mastering engineer as my sole source of income. It requires a specific type of listening mindset (along with very detailed and accurate monitoring, serious remedial equipment, select software dedicated for stereo processing) The listening skills take a long time to acquire in order to be able to satisfy enough people to continue with it as your sole income.

I am however starting to wonder what the opinons are of those who mix only, mix engineers. Do you exclusively send your clients to a mastering specific person/studio ?

Do you somehow feel a mastering engineer who mixes somehow dilutes the profession of mastering ? Or is this totally fine ? Is the historic separation of tasks still valid ? Of course it opens up a potential equipment quality question as well.

If possible, but don't feel obliged, in your reply it would be good to get a very rough gauge on where you see yourself as a mixing engineer in terms of experience so I can more closely try and understand the responses. (forgive me if my number categorization is a bit rough and ready or presumptuous)

5/5 being A list well known mix engineer
4/5 doing consistent commercial work
3/5 mixing moderately successful bands
2/5 making a basic living from mixing unknown bands
1/5 being a mix engineer who has a small studio mixing demo's at home.

I plan as far into the future as possible to continue solely mastering. I love it and can earn a living from it, I also feel I might be treading on the toes of potential mix engineer clients (being seen as a mastering engineer who is not good enough at it to live on mastering alone and taking work from mixing engineers.) That said, we are living in rapidly changing times, not least with long time developing changes in the music industry.

Thanks for your time, and am very interested in your professional opinions.

Last edited by SASMastering; 14th July 2019 at 02:52 PM..
Old 14th July 2019
  #2
This will be controversial and probably seen as inflammatory, but that is not at all my intent. I’m just stating what I’ve experienced: I know a fair amount of successful mixers who’ve transitioned into also doing good mastering work. I don’t know any mastering engineers who’ve successfully transitioned into mix work.

That’s not to say it’s impossible, and I’m certainly not one to discourage anyone from trying, but it IS my personal observation. In any case I wish you great luck
Old 14th July 2019
  #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bgrotto View Post
I don’t know any mastering engineers who’ve successfully transitioned into mix work.
My wife has worked at some mastering places with some seriously heavy hitters, and through them and her I've been able to ask quite a few ME's why they picked mastering. The answers, in reverse order of frequency, have been mostly...

3. "Short attention span."
2. "The hours are better."
1. "I suck at mixing."
Old 14th July 2019
  #4
I solely earn a living from mastering fortunately and do not wish to change this if at all possible. All opinions are fine of course, controversial or otherwise. To be a good well rounded mastering engineer it will have been common to have done a fairly wide range of audio engineering tasks during your profession prior, if I speak for myself in my role as a head of engineering I recorded multitrack, direct to stereo and mixed recording sessions as part of my daily work. Along with learning my engineering craft in broadcast, so lots of broadcast balancing/audio post as well. I was in a very fortunate position and personally speaking I have grown into mastering via what could be seen a well travelled and cumulative experience route.(As well as formal sound education before that)

It does beckon the question what came first, the chicken or the egg? Mixing mastering engineers, or mastering mixing engineers ? The road most travelled by experienced mastering engineers I suspect is that they probably have general professional audio engineering background (as in actually worked as an audio engineer before becoming a mastering engineer) from multiple disciplines and then moved into mastering, mixing is not alien to me far from it, I have recorded and mixed a lot of material before I became a mastering engineer. My plan is to continue solely mastering, but I wanted to understand opinions on the matter.

I do wonder if "mixing mastering engineers" are avoided by individuals who professionally mix for a living ?
Old 14th July 2019
  #5
Quote:
Originally Posted by SASMastering View Post
I do wonder if "mixing mastering engineers" are avoided by individuals who professionally mix for a living ?
I certainly hire a few mixers-turned-masterers. In all cases, these folks still do mixing as well. As noted, I don't know any masterers-turned-mixers, so I can't comment on having avoided them, but I will say this: my favorite mastering engineers are all focus exclusively on mastering. Part of the reason they are my favorite is, after building a relationship with them, they recommend my engineering and mixing services to their clients, just as i refer my clients to them for their mastering services. So that creates a nice symbiosis.

So I think there's a certain advantage to a finer focus, because it allows you to make referrals without any fear of conflict of interest, which of course builds a great relationship with the engineers you're referring your clients to.
Old 14th July 2019
  #6
Hi bgrotto, yes apart from being able to live on mastering this is a very good reason for specialization. I work with a number of mixing engineers and as such it creates a situation free of any conflict, it creates trust as well. Why would a mix engineer who lives from the profession of mixing pay a mastering engineer who also mixes ? And yes the work relationship and recommendation can flow both ways, as it can.

I personally respect mastering engineers who can earn a living from mastering alone. The 2 audio realms of mixing and mastering are in my opinion ideally important to separate to avoid compounding issues that may originate from the mix room/monitoring not to mention defects which are often and easily missed (at all levels of mix proficiency in the industry). By mixing and mastering you choose to go against the grain of audio engineering job protocol. This is a distinction that the audio production community itself has promoted for the greatest part of its existence. (fresh ears, objectivity, specific listening process, gear and all important QC)

For mastering in the true sense of the word I believe you cannot forego the quality of monitoring arrangement, i.e. full range - minimum 3 driver systems. I do not see how a mix engineer can hear everything on a set of near fields that you can on a large, full range 3 way + highly detailed system, unless they are super human which of course they are not.

Notwishstanding some generalization which is necesssary to condense thought
this is still my view.

I pose the question as I have been working on my own complex mixes for 3 years as an enjoyable creative project and have become increasingly proficient at getting good mixes that "go loud" nicely and easily. I am getting rather good at it.

Whilst I have no plan to extend my services to mixing it provoked some interesting thoughts and ultimately this thread.
Old 14th July 2019
  #7
Well I may be an unusual case study since I have been doing both mastering and mixing from the beginning. 25 years now. When I started out none of my rec/mixing clients had money for mastering, and back in the mid nineties there weren't many (any?) affordable mastering options like we have now. So I was asked to handle the mastering as well as the mixing. Soon I was up and running as a low budget ME and eventually became a mid-priced ME. But I still do some recording and mixing.

Anyway, all that's just to show how I came up. Regarding MEs who also mix, I don't think there are any rules really. All that matters is that you do it well. I've never had anyone that I know of hire me or not hire me for mastering because I also do mixing. And vice versa. I've never even had any complaints about mastering my own mixes. I have lots of repeat mastering clients who are professional mix engineers. We are not in competition with one another. In the end all most clients care about is results, not how you get them. That's been my experience at least.

Cheers,
Old 14th July 2019
  #8
My take is there are rules, they may not be steadfast rules but they still feel like a set of sensible "best practice" rules to me (and seemingly many others). And aside from the fact I can live on solely mastering because I appear to be sufficiently good at it to do so, the industry has kept the 2 procedures separate as a "double check" at the very least. Given the different approach to eq and compression in mastering compared to mixing, specialism in that approach to listening (with the restrictions and potential damage you can cause inherent in 2 track stereo mastering) Those mere 2 processes alone are not something you learn over night.

At least they appear to be a form of rule and certainly have been audio industry norms for much of the history of recorded music, though granted this may have changed somewhat since the advent of the project studio in the 90's.

Popular perception being that mastering has monitoring and room a grade up from a control room where a mix may take place. A generalization of sorts but it is reasonably common to see near fields alone above a console or attached to a ITB workstation mix room. (Many don't even benefit from having the low end extension 70's and 80's dedicated "Mains" recording/mix facilities once had.)

I use a set of near fields I am familiar with (Dynaudio BM6P - I like their punch and know their lower mids intimately) but there is no way they can present the detail and extension of my PMC IB1S. The difference is stark.
Old 14th July 2019
  #9
Quote:
Originally Posted by SASMastering View Post
My take is there are rules, they may not be steadfast rules but they still feel like a set of sensible "best practice" rules to me (and seemingly many others). And aside from the fact I can live on solely mastering because I appear to be sufficiently good at it to do so, the industry has kept the 2 procedures separate as a "double check" at the very least. Given the different approach to eq and compression in mastering compared to mixing, specialism in that approach to listening (with the restrictions and potential damage you can cause inherent in 2 track stereo mastering) Those mere 2 processes alone are not something you learn over night.

At least they appear to be a form of rule and certainly have been audio industry norms for much of the history of recorded music, though granted this may have changed somewhat since the advent of the project studio in the 90's.

Popular perception being that mastering has monitoring and room a grade up from a control room where a mix may take place. A generalization of sorts but it is reasonably common to see near fields alone above a console or attached to a ITB workstation mix room.

I use a set of near fields I am familiar with (Dynaudio BM6P - I like there punch and know their lower mids intimately) but there is no way they can present the detail of my PMC IB1S. The difference is stark.
Everything you say is true. And there are workarounds for all of it (One can have more than a single set of monitors for example, or even more than one room). Without going through all the workarounds in detail, I can say from experience that it is possible to wear both hats if you figure out how. If that weren't true then frankly I wouldn't be in business this last quarter century. People come to each of us for what we can do for them, be it mastering, mixing or both. If they like our work then they come back for more. That's really all there is to it in the end.
Old 14th July 2019
  #10
Sure I understand that, I am interested less in precise personal approaches and more in wider industry perceptions from broad range of people relative to how they choose these services and if people prefer a specialist.

I suppose ultimately I am interested in the perspective of dedicated mix engineers who have also chosen to specialize rather
than be non specialist, given recording history has separated the 2 with logical reason. Although of course musicians and producers are most welcome to share their feelings.
Old 14th July 2019
  #11
Quote:
Originally Posted by SASMastering View Post
I suppose ultimately I am interested in the perspective of dedicated mix engineers who have also chosen to specialize rather
than be non specialist...
No doubt if you seek out and find the opinions of those who have already chosen similarly to you (chosen to specialize),... they will agree with you!
Old 14th July 2019
  #12
Gear Guru
 

I am all for the historic separation of tasks. I even like to finish the tracking before seriously tackling a mix - imagine that!

Quote:
Whilst I have no plan to extend my services to mixing it provoked some interesting thoughts and ultimately this thread.
it seems to me there are two issues

one is your actual skill and ability at doing these two "historically separate" tasks

and the other is the perception on the part of potential clients about someone who does both. I think it is simply human nature to assume that talent spread out is talent diluted, whether that's fair or not. I have to admit my perception of who is and who is not a "real" mastering engineer is definitely colored by the extent to which they ONLY do mastering vs if they do a little bit of everything. I agree with bgrotto that my favorite mastering engineers are the ones with the exclusive mastering focus.

Back when I was doing a lot of gigging as a drummer as well as my studio engineering, I had separate business cards. One for myself as a drummer and a different card for myself as a recording engineer. I think it was very helpful to me.

Quote:
Mixing mastering engineers, or mastering mixing engineers ?
There was a thread recently about "stem mastering". Some were saying it was to accommodate self-mixing newbies and give the mastering engineer more opportunities to 'rescue' their sorry mixes. Others were saying it was to accommodate mastering engineers who were frustrated mixers!

If you do start offering mixing to clients, will you also be mastering those mixes, or send them elsewhere? I have always viewed mastering in particular as being about that second pair of fresh ears as well as the "specialization" of Generalization so to speak. So how do you refresh your own ears?
Old 14th July 2019
  #13
Lives for gear
 

i know very few engineers who i consider to mix and master equally well - if any, they are dinosaurs, meaning they are very experienced (in several fields of our profession) and have been around the block (or world) several times.

i started out doing live and studio work, broadcasting and mastering came later - i own/run five mid-sized studios, one of which (over the years) became a mastering studio. nevertheless, the more advanced work i give to a mastering engineer who's work i like a lot 'cause i'll never become as good as he is!

(i'm trying not to judge any engineer by his/her motivation/ambitions/income/status and certainly not by a client list but by the results i get to hear - so i cannot relate much to the scale you suggested, sorry)

Last edited by deedeeyeah; 22nd July 2019 at 04:26 PM.. Reason: typo
Old 15th July 2019
  #14
yep
Gear Nut
 

Getting to a place where you can consistently turn out great mixes (like, good enough for a movie soundtrack) in under a day or two, with a modern ~100 track project file... that is typically a journey of several years and dozens or hundreds of mediocre mixes.

If you have that skill, go ahead and offer it to the world.
Old 15th July 2019
  #15
I'm with @ joeq (for a change) and others in saying specialise to excel.

For that reason, I'd rather send mixes to mastering guys who focus and concentrate on that skill, are set up solely for that purpose.

Nothing says "desperate for work, will do anything" than the guy who offers, recording, mixing, mastering, session playing, composing, videos, websites etc. Very few people can be significantly great at all those things. That's my excuse for why my guitar playing is well below average these days

It's a bit different with the recording/production process because production, engineering and mixing overlap significantly. You get many world class people who produce projects, and mix projects for others, and occasionally engineer for others too.

My level is probably a 3 on your list, occasionally venturing into 4 territory
Old 15th July 2019
  #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post

Nothing says "desperate for work, will do anything" than the guy who offers, recording, mixing, mastering, session playing, composing, videos, websites etc.
I'll also mow lawns!
Old 15th July 2019
  #17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trakworx View Post
No doubt if you seek out and find the opinions of those who have already chosen similarly to you (chosen to specialize),... they will agree with you!
I wanted to hear any views on the matter, I still feel it has risk associated with it to do both potentially demonstrating that some cannot live on mastering alone and by treading on small studios who record and mix to earn a living.

I also feel there can be touch of arrogance for an individual to feel they are expert at it all (especially so when monitoring is barely better (or worse) than many people use in a project studio), that is not aimed at you by the way.

I enjoy and evidently master well so long may it be my sole income, but in 5 or 10 years it is very difficult to know what the world/industry situation might bring about and such thoughts spring to mind from time to time. GS is a good barometer as it is probably the most active online pro/amateur sound engineering and music production community that exists.

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PMC IB1S, Hypex amps, Crane Song Solaris Quantum DAC, Manley MP hardware, HCL Varis, Sontec clone, Summit Audio, Mytek, ear selected DSP/Plug ins. Fully treated room (28 bale traps for linear low end response) Get in contact for your next project.
Old 15th July 2019
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post
I'll also mow lawns!
The name of the site kind of implies that there's not much we won't do. I'm pretty good with a squeegee, myself.
Old 15th July 2019
  #19
Quote:
Originally Posted by SASMastering View Post
I wanted to hear any views on the matter, I still feel it has risk associated with it to do both potentially demonstrating that some cannot live on mastering alone and by treading on small studios who record and mix to earn a living.
Those are reasonable concerns when taken in the abstract. In actual practice, I can say as someone with long experience as a "jack of all trades", those issues have not been significant, as I said before... YMMV. Also, keep in mind that many of those small studios are offering mastering, thus treading on you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SASMastering View Post
I also feel there can be touch of arrogance for an individual to feel they are expert at it all (especially so when monitoring is barely better (or worse) than many people use in a project studio), that is not aimed at you by the way.
I agree that there are too many project studios offering mastering as a way to augment their income when their clients would probably be better served by a separate ME. That's a symptom of a crowded competitive field. I think it's economics not arrogance, most of the time. That does not include all of them however. Some are outputting great masters consistently. And conversely some dedicated mastering studios aren't very good. In any field there will always be maestros and charlatans. It's up to the free market to weed through them over time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SASMastering View Post
I enjoy and evidently master well so long may it be my sole income, but in 5 or 10 years it is very difficult to know what the world/industry situation might bring about and such thoughts spring to mind from time to time. GS is a good barometer as it is probably the most active online pro/amateur sound engineering and music production community that exists.
Yes, the always uncertain economic future and the benefits of diversification (I know I'd be very concerned about Brexit if I were in your location - good luck!). Interestingly, my situation is moving in the opposite direction; over the years demand for mastering has steadily increased to the point where my recording/mixing business is down to about 15% of my income anymore. It's only a matter of time before I go 100% mastering. So I'm slowly un-diversifying. And that is scary. Good on you for considering your options. My message to you is basically a positive one - that you can offer mixing without negative consequences to your mastering business. If you want to, then go for it.
Old 20th July 2019
  #20
Mastering in a mix/small studio will compound any issues born of the room/monitors and most experienced in sound understand this. As far as mixing goes I don't want to, I just wanted to know the perceptions of potential clients on people who present themselves as expert in both mixing music and mastering. Which myself and I suspect many others find a bit of a stretch. And it goes against the grain of history without any good technical reason.

I think a mastering engineer that uses mastering grade loudspeakers is at least equipped to mix well. But a mix engineer with a set of near fields is less well equipped to promote themselves as a serious prospect for mastering. I guess once in a blue moon someone bucks the trend. Serious mastering engineers know you can only go so far without the inner workings of music as presented by monitoring that can resolve the kind of clarity, definition, resolution, depth and frequency response that a full range system does. No self induced "golden ears" delusions will replace that.

In any market, poor anything never endures.
Old 20th July 2019
  #21
Quote:
Originally Posted by SASMastering View Post
Mastering in a mix/small studio will compound any issues born of the room/monitors and most experienced in sound understand this. As far as mixing goes I don't want to, I just wanted to know the perceptions of potential clients on people who present themselves as expert in both mixing music and mastering which myself and I suspect many others find a bit of a stretch. And it goes against the grain of history.
In the end the only thing that really matters is how the resulting masters translate in the real world. If one has a "decent" room and really knows their room then they can make mixes and masters that translate. Personally I don't think it's about presenting one's self as an expert, it's about doing the work, getting the results and letting the customers decide. Over time the extent to which you can pull it off is the extent to which you will succeed in the business.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SASMastering View Post
I think a mastering engineer that uses mastering grade loudspeakers is at least equipped to mix well. But a mix engineer with a set of near fields is less well equipped to promote themselves as a serious prospect for mastering. You can only go so far without the inner workings of music as presented by speakers that can resolve the kind of clarity, depth and frequency response that a full range system does.

In any market, poor anything never endures.
For mastering you definitely do need flat full range speakers with good detail but not necessarily the $20,000.00+ variety to get the job done well. I'll happily admit that for a couple of decades I mixed and mastered primarily on a pair of Genelec 1030as with a Genelec 1092a subwoofer in a multi-purpose control room with flat response in the mix position. I supplemented that with a second full range "audiophile" system, good headphones and a lo-fi boombox. That's what I was rolling with when I mastered all of my most noteworthy projects, and many thousands of albums, EPs and singles over the years. That's what I was using while demand for my mastering was steadily growing. I'm not saying this to praise myself, but instead to offer an example of someone who did, in real life, endure while breaking the norms and going against the grain of history. It can be done. I am living breathing proof.

And I'm nothing special. If I can do it then so can others. And some do.

Last year I added a pair of full range B&W 802s to my setup to see what would happen. I can say that they are amazing speakers and a joy to work with. I can not say that they made the quality of my output better.

I know all of this causes raised eyebrows and shaking heads but I don't care because I have proved my point - that it can be done - by actually doing it for decades.

Cheers, It's a pleasure discussing with you.

Last edited by Trakworx; 20th July 2019 at 06:06 PM..
Old 20th July 2019
  #22
There can be some who occasionally buck the trend. However it is is worth being careful to not mistake the exception for the rule. It is pretty rare for anyone to seriously upgrade their monitoring system and then feel their old system was as good.

Sometimes the real world is a crystal clear sound system that goes all the way down with 18inch subs powered by many kilowatts. A few may get lucky and know that a track will sound great using near fields alone. It remains the path less travelled in professional mastering studios historically and today with those most respected.

I was more interested to know the perceptions of people who make music, produce, A&R, management, those who dedicate to mixing, maybe some labels responses but nonetheless the path less travelled version of success is welcome also.
Old 20th July 2019
  #23
Lives for gear
It's true people pigeon hole, and they also think multi-talented can mean "jack of all trades - master of none"

Sometimes for people with expectation bias, I don't tell them I offer multiple services, I tell them I only specialise
in the service I'm offering.

Other are impressed by a multi-talented person.

I've made a great living over the last 30 years - telling people what they want to hear!

Of course it does require you to be able to come up with the goods so to speak, you have to have the talent and skills.

So if it where me, I'd simple offer mixing services under a different banner - happens all the time in many different fields.
I'd keep your mastering and mixing business separate - then you can even recommend yourself for mastering (if it's an on-line model)
Old 21st July 2019
  #24
For now I will continue dedicated mastering. The last decade has treated me well and I am better skilled and equipped for soley mastering into the next decade than ever before. Thanks for the opinions.


__________________

Barry Gardner Mastering
PMC IB1S, Hypex amps, Crane Song Solaris Quantum DAC, Manley MP hardware, Hcl Varis, Sontec clone, Summit Audio, Mytek, ear selected DSP/Plug ins. Fully treated room (28 bale traps for linear low end response) Get in contact for your next project.
Old 21st July 2019
  #25
Lives for gear
 

I think this day and age... a mastering engineer needs to know how to mix, and be good at it. a "mastering engineer" nowadays isn't a person who has to make it cut well on a record.

so chances are a good mastering engineer knows how to do a good mix. so if they are equipt and want to sell both services.... do it.
Old 21st July 2019
  #26
Quote:
Originally Posted by Preston135 View Post
I think this day and age... a mastering engineer needs to know how to mix, and be good at it. a "mastering engineer" nowadays isn't a person who has to make it cut well on a record.

so chances are a good mastering engineer knows how to do a good mix. so if they are equipt and want to sell both services.... do it.
I think that’s only true if you’re not yet making a living at mastering. The best mastering engineers don’t mix, because they’re too busy mastering!
Old 22nd July 2019
  #27
Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
The best mastering engineers don’t mix, because they’re too busy mastering!
I wonder if that's really true... Do we know for sure that all the top MEs don't do ANY mixing? I bet some of them like to record and mix, even if it's not their main source of income. I bet some of them are musicians, songwriters and producers too. It's just not what they're best known for. I'd be interested to know more about that...

Some noteworthy MEs have big credits other than mastering. Bob Olhsson comes to mind...
Old 22nd July 2019
  #28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trakworx View Post
I wonder if that's really true... Do we know for sure that all the top MEs don't do ANY mixing? I bet some of them like to record and mix, even if it's not their main source of income. I bet some of them are musicians, songwriters and producers too. It's just not what they're best known for. I'd be interested to know more about that...

Some noteworthy MEs have big credits other than mastering. Bob Olhsson comes to mind...
There’ll always be an exception, and people do move careers. But even if they “do” mixing, play guitar or whatever - it’s not their specialism or what they’re known for. If a high end ME is constantly mastering tracks, when do they get the time to practice their mixing? At least that’s my excuse for why I’m very average at guitar these days!

I’m pretty sure if you’re making a good living/have a good rep as a mastering engineer, you probably don’t want to bolt on “I can also mix!”. It cheapens the overall image, like it or not. Specialists specialise.
Old 22nd July 2019
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
Specialists specialise.
I do agree, and it many fields it's an imperative.

But that said, recently I was listening to an interview with the amazing session guitarist Tim Pierce and he was talking about his advice to younger musicians.

He said he genuinely believed the age of the specialist session guitarist was coming to an end and here in 2019 there's a need to be able to wear many hats.

It's a little how farmers had to diversify to survive, I myself have literally doubled my income by moving away from specialisation - not that money is everything of course.

If the trend in this industry continues as it has done over the last 10 years then I see less of a future for new blood coming into the industry under the label of "specialist"
Old 22nd July 2019
  #30
I'm not a professional, so let's get that out of the way.

That being said, I would think that someone with enough experience and an ear good enough to properly master material would be actually quite well suited for mixing.

It's not like the skillset goes to waste or is irrelevant. It's not inconceivable that someone would be good at both, even great.
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