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Points/Publishing in 2018
Old 14th August 2018
  #1
Here for the gear
 

Points/Publishing in 2018

The threads I could find on this topic are quite old, I'm curious what people have to say on this topic in 2018. I'm looking for information specifically regarding the European pop market, but information about other markets would be interesting as well!

For pop released and published by majors, what is the "standard" that one should expect (IE not getting ripped off) in terms of points and publishing percentage?

1) When mixing only.

2) When mixing and adding production elements.
Old 15th August 2018
  #2
I think in both cases you’d never get publishing - unless the artist cuts you in, in lieu of payment.

Maybe occasionally a producer will add enough to a track that they are deemed a co-writer, and get a publishing cut.

Most of the time a mixer just gets a flat fee. The superstars are able to demand a point or two perhaps.

Likewise, producers usually get a few points - but “additional production”? It’s totally down to your deal. I’d suggest one point is all you should expect - possibly better to go for an increased fee.
Old 15th August 2018
  #3
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
I think in both cases you’d never get publishing - unless the artist cuts you in, in lieu of payment.

Maybe occasionally a producer will add enough to a track that they are deemed a co-writer, and get a publishing cut.

Most of the time a mixer just gets a flat fee. The superstars are able to demand a point or two perhaps.

Likewise, producers usually get a few points - but “additional production”? It’s totally down to your deal. I’d suggest one point is all you should expect - possibly better to go for an increased fee.
I phrased that really stupidly. By the second point, I really meant mixing & production.

In my case I'd be looking at a reduced up front fee for initial work (which includes production), but possibly a cut of publishing, so that makes sense with what you've said.

Dumbass question: is the only way to get a cut of publishing to be listed as a co-writer? Or are there deals for producers to get publishing but not as a co-writer?

Thanks Psycho
Old 15th August 2018
  #4
Quote:
Originally Posted by throwaway2018 View Post
I phrased that really stupidly. By the second point, I really meant mixing & production.

In my case I'd be looking at a reduced up front fee for initial work (which includes production), but possibly a cut of publishing, so that makes sense with what you've said.

Dumbass question: is the only way to get a cut of publishing to be listed as a co-writer? Or are there deals for producers to get publishing but not as a co-writer?

Thanks Psycho
As far as I’m aware, the only way to get publishing directly is to be registered as a co-writer. I suppose in theory there’s nothing to stop a private agreement that the artist/writer would pass on a cut, but in practice that’s not going to work indefinitely.
Old 20th August 2018
  #5
why would an artist give you a cut of the publishing?
Old 20th August 2018
  #6
Quote:
Originally Posted by pencilextremist View Post
why would an artist give you a cut of the publishing?
If you’re recording/producing/mixing them for free, or more realistically as an investment.

After all - an artist generally gives a publisher 50% of the publishing for their services.
Old 22nd August 2018
  #7
Lives for gear
One thing right away is that, at least in the US, there seems to be a bit of a lack of clarity here WRT publishing, vs the copyright for the recording aka the master. The term 'points' is usually used to describe a split of gross master revenue, and doesn't have anything to do with publishing splits. Also a cut off of gross probably isn't the best choice if what you are doing is indy at this point...If you are recording with no upfront cost, and no recoupable production fee, I would say a 50/50 master split is completely reasonable. It takes two skill sets to create the master, performer and recordist. In lieu of payment I don't see any reason why one should get more than the other, the master would not exist without both.

If you are producing the instrumental from scratch, and by that I mean composing the instrumental, AND there isn't already a full song written, then the standard in the industry is a 50/50 split of the publishing. In the US if you sit down and do it together from scratch, a 50/50 split is the law in lieu of any other agreement...

If they have a full song written (lyrics, chords, melody), then the split % gets more up for grabs and it really depends on what you do. Often times what you would see from a label is 25% to the producer (who is composing all tracks). BUT generally there is a gentlemen's/industry agreement that the artist can still separate their original song unless your version gets released.

A more traditional type of producer, like George Martin type who is coaching etc but not composing all instrumental parts would generally get a couple points (% gross master revenue) AND a production fee. If you are a Dr Luke or Benny Blanco etc type you get prod fee, 50/50 pub split (for song from scratch) and points. If the artist can't afford the production fee, you can also advance it to them in a production agreement.

In an indy situation, points is a pretty crappy deal for you for syncs and stuff. Personally if I'm advancing the prod fee and cowriting where doing 50/50 for pubs and master and I recoup the prod fee. If a label got involved, I'll renegotiate the points down.

Without a label dropping big money on radio promo etc for the song, I don't see why you should get only a tiny cut of gross.
Old 22nd August 2018
  #8
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by pencilextremist View Post
why would an artist give you a cut of the publishing?

If it's just recording then a split of the master makes more sense.

But when you are composing parts, working with the artist to change vocal melodies, change chords to the song, add sections, shorten sections etc...and all that gets rolled into 'production' this really is part of the songwriting.

In that case I just always agree with them that they can keep 100% of their version of the song, but our version we will do splits on.
Old 23rd August 2018
  #9
Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanC View Post
One thing right away is that, at least in the US, there seems to be a bit of a lack of clarity here WRT publishing, vs the copyright for the recording aka the master. The term 'points' is usually used to describe a split of gross master revenue, and doesn't have anything to do with publishing splits. Also a cut off of gross probably isn't the best choice if what you are doing is indy at this point...If you are recording with no upfront cost, and no recoupable production fee, I would say a 50/50 master split is completely reasonable. It takes two skill sets to create the master, performer and recordist. In lieu of payment I don't see any reason why one should get more than the other, the master would not exist without both.

If you are producing the instrumental from scratch, and by that I mean composing the instrumental, AND there isn't already a full song written, then the standard in the industry is a 50/50 split of the publishing. In the US if you sit down and do it together from scratch, a 50/50 split is the law in lieu of any other agreement...

If they have a full song written (lyrics, chords, melody), then the split % gets more up for grabs and it really depends on what you do. Often times what you would see from a label is 25% to the producer (who is composing all tracks). BUT generally there is a gentlemen's/industry agreement that the artist can still separate their original song unless your version gets released.

A more traditional type of producer, like George Martin type who is coaching etc but not composing all instrumental parts would generally get a couple points (% gross master revenue) AND a production fee. If you are a Dr Luke or Benny Blanco etc type you get prod fee, 50/50 pub split (for song from scratch) and points. If the artist can't afford the production fee, you can also advance it to them in a production agreement.

In an indy situation, points is a pretty crappy deal for you for syncs and stuff. Personally if I'm advancing the prod fee and cowriting where doing 50/50 for pubs and master and I recoup the prod fee. If a label got involved, I'll renegotiate the points down.

Without a label dropping big money on radio promo etc for the song, I don't see why you should get only a tiny cut of gross.
For clarification if you're talking "points" you're talking %age of purchase price to dealer (PPD). So if your song sells on itunes @99c, and itunes takes a 25% cut, you get your points of 75c per download.
Old 23rd August 2018
  #10
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
For clarification if you're talking "points" you're talking %age of purchase price to dealer (PPD). So if your song sells on itunes @99c, and itunes takes a 25% cut, you get your points of 75c per download.
Good point

I've heard people use the term points for PPD or SRLP, although I don't know if anyone has a SRLP deal anymore...but in either case yeah gross isn't actually correct.

I think the bigger point () is if the artist has a major record deal then get a lawyer. If not, then a a few points is likely to leave the OP feeling like he got a raw deal if some money from syncs comes along, but not from a label. They land a 50k sync and he gets $125-500 from the master sync license, and effectively a ~74/26 split with the artist if @ 50% pub and only a 99/1 split if no pubs.

If the goal was to charge a low upfront fee, and the tracks are from scratch I would call the upfront fee the production fee, do a 50/50 split for publishing and master and write a letter of intent to renegotiate the master if a label comes along. It would be in his interest to renegotiate anyway, and with the label it's their bat and ball when they can just re-record it...

Last edited by RyanC; 23rd August 2018 at 04:18 PM..
Old 24th August 2018
  #11
Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanC View Post
Good point

I've heard people use the term points for PPD or SRLP, although I don't know if anyone has a SRLP deal anymore...but in either case yeah gross isn't actually correct.

I think the bigger point () is if the artist has a major record deal then get a lawyer. If not, then a a few points is likely to leave the OP feeling like he got a raw deal if some money from syncs comes along, but not from a label. They land a 50k sync and he gets $125-500 from the master sync license, and effectively a ~74/26 split with the artist if @ 50% pub and only a 99/1 split if no pubs.

If the goal was to charge a low upfront fee, and the tracks are from scratch I would call the upfront fee the production fee, do a 50/50 split for publishing and master and write a letter of intent to renegotiate the master if a label comes along. It would be in his interest to renegotiate anyway, and with the label it's their bat and ball when they can just re-record it...
If the artist has a major label deal, you should be getting a production fee, plus the points, plus hopefully a mix/engineering fee. So the few hundred from a sync is a bonus.

If you’ve not got that upfront fee, you should keep a much higher percentage of the master, and thus a bigger cut of a sync buyout - but even a 50k buyout doesn’t come to that much when you’ve divided it all up.
Old 23rd October 2018
  #12
Here for the gear
 

Using a throwaway account I managed to forget about this thread

Thanks everyone for chiming in, I really appreciate your experience and perspective.
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