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Sonar "colors" recordings?
Old 1st August 2005
  #31
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I'm shocked that people are finding HUGE differences between Samp and Sonar. I did my own test with Sonar 2 and Samplitude 7. Recorded into sonar then 'Omfed' it to Samplitude. I thought the Samplitude BTD MIGHT have SLIGHTLY more extended frequencies from the bottom to the top, but even then I could of been imagining it. But the music I deal with is synth/sample based stuff so maybe the differences wouldn't show as much....also maybe the they handle plug-ins can be different cuz I just did a str8 bounce no volume or pan changes.

but I think personally there should be a disclaimer for GS "ANY TIME SOMEONE SAYS SO AND SO BLOWS SO AND SO AWAY AND THE PRICES ARE RELATIVELY SIMILAR, THE DIFFERENCE IS USUALLY SO SMALL THAT THE AVERAGE PERSON WOULDN'T KNOW THE DIFFERENCE."
Old 1st August 2005
  #32
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Well that's just it I am like you and most of the time I notice very small variance between equipment but in this case it is THAT obvious. Samplitude may be is adding something to make it sound better, I don't know (some have said that). To me it just sounded "clearer" and had more detail. I could distinguish instruments much more.

The only thing I am not sure about is if that was the summing or the actual tracks ro both. I did find the bass frequencies in Sonar to be "thicker" (a good thing). However I could boos the bass in Samplitude and almost get the same sound. Sometimes I want the bottom to sound like it does with Sonar.

I say maybe Samplitude may be adding something because all the other DAW I have heard sound exactly the same to me. So what is going on? I have no idea.
Old 1st August 2005
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluzzi
Well that's just it I am like you and most of the time I notice very small variance between equipment but in this case it is THAT obvious. Samplitude may be is adding something to make it sound better, I don't know (some have said that). To me it just sounded "clearer" and had more detail. I could distinguish instruments much more.

The only thing I am not sure about is if that was the summing or the actual tracks ro both. I did find the bass frequencies in Sonar to be "thicker" (a good thing). However I could boos the bass in Samplitude and almost get the same sound. Sometimes I want the bottom to sound like it does with Sonar.

I say maybe Samplitude may be adding something because all the other DAW I have heard sound exactly the same to me. So what is going on? I have no idea.
Not saying your lying, but my 'test'(if you could actually call it that) made the platform(summing wise) negligible. I just chose Samplitude cause it doesn't crash on my computer, while Sonar will once in a blue and since Samp8 they have these cool Analog Modeling Suite plugs which I think are the best plugs that do what they do.
Old 1st August 2005
  #34
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No its no lie. Why would I lie about that? Nothing for me to gain, I am not even using Samplitude!

My test was to play the same files on both Sonar v3 and Samplitude v7 (or was it v6?). In any case no plugins were used! All tracks were panned center, all were at "0" (zero) on the faders and all sent to the stereo buss. So the same processing is going on on both programs, nothing less nothing more.

Volume was adjusted so that both matched closely.

Then I would start Sonar and play for about 15 seconds then switch to Samplitude and play for 15 seconds.

Its an irrefutable difference! I will argue this to death. The difference is so obvious if you cannot hear it either your test is flawed or there is something in the recording chain that is affecting the sound much more. I came to this conclusion before I found out others were also hearing the same thing so it wasn't like I was trying to prove a point. In actuality I didn't because I am using Sonar (for particular reasons) not Samplitude. Some other things in Samplitude bother me and I am not using Sonar to Sum. Also its not like Sonar is unusable, it sounds great! But when you hear Samplitude something happens to the sound that makes it clearer. The most noticable thing for me was how each instrument was easily distinguishable and seperated from the others. It was more 3D like. If I was mixing ITB I think I would go with Samplitude.

I am not the only one hearing this. I am also not one of those fanatical persons that has to have 24 bits/192KHZ with $20,000 converters etc.

I am fussy but to a point (the point where it starts to get in the way of playing and writing). But I tried the above test a few times and its a HUGE difference.

I said it before "maybe Samplitude is adding some sort of enhancer " I don't know.

The tracks were Live drums, Bass direct, electric guitar, Congas and Hammond B3.

I am not trying to convince anyone of this impression and I have heard the "digital is digital all the time" argument but my ears tell me otherwise in this case.
Old 1st August 2005
  #35
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluzzi
The difference is so obvious if you cannot hear it either your test is flawed or there is something in the recording chain that is affecting the sound much more.

Interesting accusation (well not that interesting, since everyone everywhere uses it to defend their viewpoint on a particular sound when others disagree), but how in the world can you assume that others' tests are flawed if they don't hear a difference, but not equally acknowlege that there is a 50% chance that perhaps the difference you're hearing is because YOUR test is flawed and/or the gear is affecting the sound?
Just because there is a difference in one case does not mean that case is the "right" case. Perhaps where the difference is heard, that case is the "wrong" case.
Old 1st August 2005
  #36
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Curtis Franklin's Avatar
 

i use pt at the studio where i freelance. i will record live tracks there, bounce them to wav's and import them into sonar (all that the same sample rate and bith depth) i will then edit and export them to wavs and take them to the studio.

besides the edits that i have done there is no difference in the fidelity of the tracks. sometimes i even favor the dither algorithm included in sonar 4 to that in pro tools. maybe im CRAZY!!!!
Old 1st August 2005
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluzzi
All tracks were panned center, .
What about the infamous pan law?
Old 1st August 2005
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juicemaster1500
I'm surprised no one's mentioned this, but Cakewalk did something with their Sonar soundengine from version 3 to verson 4. I'm not talking about just the panning laws, but the overall sound is improved. At higher samplingrates this program now sounds GOOD. More clear, more hifi. Version 3 didn't sound 100%, v4 does.
That would make it incredibly easy to compare identical mixes, at least on one platform. I assume you could open up a version 3 project in 4, right? Then all settings, files, plugins would be identical, you could bounce down the new mix, listen, phase reverse, see if 4 really was better/different than 3. Wouldn't help in comparing to other DAWs, but might prove that an "audio engine", whatever the hell that is, can be different, have different sound, can be improved.

Did any Sonar users do that, and post up the results anywhere?
Old 1st August 2005
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Teacher
I'm shocked that people are finding HUGE differences between Samp and Sonar. I did my own test with Sonar 2 and Samplitude 7. Recorded into sonar then 'Omfed' it to Samplitude. I thought the Samplitude BTD MIGHT have SLIGHTLY more extended frequencies from the bottom to the top, but even then I could of been imagining it. But the music I deal with is synth/sample based stuff so maybe the differences wouldn't show as much....also maybe the they handle plug-ins can be different cuz I just did a str8 bounce no volume or pan changes.

but I think personally there should be a disclaimer for GS "ANY TIME SOMEONE SAYS SO AND SO BLOWS SO AND SO AWAY AND THE PRICES ARE RELATIVELY SIMILAR, THE DIFFERENCE IS USUALLY SO SMALL THAT THE AVERAGE PERSON WOULDN'T KNOW THE DIFFERENCE."
I agree. I think any difference anyone is hearing is either because they want to hear a difference, or they're comparing apples and oranges (2 completely different mixes, or even slightly different mixes, or other differences...), or there are volume differences that make one sound slightly better than the other.

If someone can prove otherwise, I, for one, would love to hear it.
Old 1st August 2005
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dasbin
Interesting accusation (well not that interesting, since everyone everywhere uses it to defend their viewpoint on a particular sound when others disagree), but how in the world can you assume that others' tests are flawed if they don't hear a difference, but not equally acknowlege that there is a 50% chance that perhaps the difference you're hearing is because YOUR test is flawed and/or the gear is affecting the sound?
Just because there is a difference in one case does not mean that case is the "right" case. Perhaps where the difference is heard, that case is the "wrong" case.
First its not an accusation! Its an opinion! Second I am not the only one hearing this. Do a search (even on the Sonar forum!) and you will see that the results are almost always the same. Samplitude has a superior sound! Do the test instead of just throwing up rhetoric. Don't worry about what I am saying its just my opinion. If you are positive of yours then fine stay with it.

How can a test that uses the same exact files and no plugins whatsoever and the identical output path be flawed? Please tell me what else I can do to make it all equal? That one person hears something and another doesn't is OK for me, but just a bit incrdible since we all deal with audio here! Again I repeat I am not a Golden Ears type, I don't hear that much difference between decent converters and supposidly high end ones BUT I DO HEAR THE DIFFERENCE BETWEN SONAR AND SAMPLITUDE!
Its that obvious and therefore that is why I insist for everyone to do a totally equal test. Other than that I do not see what you want.

Also if my test was flawed so were everyone else that agrees. If you know a better way to test please let me know.

I recently did some mike tests using 2 cymbals and a tom and recorded to Sonar.
I had 2 others listen in on the tracks. One is a drummer friend who I know has great ears, the other was an amazing vocalist who's audio perception was unknown to me.

Of us 3 my friend the drummer spotted very small variations in the mikes and was able to point them out to me until I did hear them. The vocalist looked at both of us and said he heard no difference between any of the tracks. I heard mostly what my friend heard but not all. What does this prove? I don't know but again here is someone that sings in pitch always but could not discern subtle mike qualities. So is it that I hear too much? Or is it the vocalist does not hear enough? I remember a time when I couldn't hear subtleties either. I trained myself to do so. I am happy with the way I can perceive now. I am nowhere near where some great engineers are but its good enough for me.

The scary thing is that Samplitude was enough of a difference where I believe even that vocalist would have noticed!

I don't want to start a Sonar vs Samplitude war nor do I want to or intended to insult anyone. I truly appologize if anyone was offended. I know sometimes writing can screw up the intended meaning. So no offense everyone.
Old 1st August 2005
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JP11
I agree. I think any difference anyone is hearing is either because they want to hear a difference, or they're comparing apples and oranges (2 completely different mixes, or even slightly different mixes, or other differences...), or there are volume differences that make one sound slightly better than the other.

If someone can prove otherwise, I, for one, would love to hear it.
The files were the same! (apples/oranges? Nope just Apples).

The mix was null! All faders were at 0 point. Overall volume was adjusted so as not to have volume influence the ear. Loud sometimes can be interpreted as better.

No plugins. Nothing! Nada! in the path.

What more can I say. It is unbelievable and if I were the only one with this opinion I would have performed the test more often (I did it 3 times to make sure).

The only way I can prove it is to have you here and listen. Or do it yourself. Now it also may be the track quality or type of music recorded. I had real Drums, direct Bass guitar, Electric Guitar, Hammond B3 and vocals. Song was a mid tempo Blues/R&B flavoured. Maybe some styles will show the differences where some others won't because of teh instruments.

Like anything in audio, no one can prove it for you. You have to prove it to yourself by doing your own tests.

I know I will be redoing them at th eend of the year again, with th enewest versions of each this time.
Old 2nd August 2005
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluzzi
The files were the same! (apples/oranges? Nope just Apples).

The mix was null! All faders were at 0 point. Overall volume was adjusted so as not to have volume influence the ear. Loud sometimes can be interpreted as better.

No plugins. Nothing! Nada! in the path.

What more can I say. It is unbelievable and if I were the only one with this opinion I would have performed the test more often (I did it 3 times to make sure).

The only I can prove it is to have you here and listen. Or do it yourself. Now it also may be the track quality or type of music recorded. I had real Drums, direct Bass guitar, Electric Guitar, Hammond B3 and vocals. Song was a mid tempo Blues/R&B flavoured. Maybe some styles will show the differences where some others won't because of teh instruments.

Like anything in audio, no one can prove it for you. You have to prove it to yourself by doing your own tests.

I know I will be redoing them at th eend of the year again, with th enewest versions of each this time.

The apples/oranges comment wasn't referring to you...I think other people compare a song they did in one app at one time to another at another time, everything is different, and they claim one app is better than the other...that sort of thing...

You didn't mention about the pan law...if Samplitude was set 3 db higher in the center, it's going to be 3 db louder, right?

I have done my own tests with different apps (not Sonar yet)...I hear no difference, I have phased reversed mixdowns, some cancel to nothing, some cancel to almost nothing. Some seem to have a louder output than others for some reason, even when the pan law is set the same. But when you adjust for that, I can't hear much of a differnce at all. My feeling at this point is any difference is insignificant. There may be differences with lots of plugins, or lots of altering of the sound, maybe Sampitude is better at that, I don't know, I haven't done a test like that.

I feel when someone makes some over-the-top claim about HUGE differences, how something is vastly superior to something else, it's up to them to prove it.

Post some files...
Old 2nd August 2005
  #43
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7 Hz's Avatar
I think this same argument has been done before, regarding many audio sequencers.

I may have been a little flippant in my earlier reply that it 'couldn't ' colour the sound. When i think of colour, its a frequency based thing, whereas I think the digital mixdown's 'sound' is the low level detail, right?

I presume that the different programs have different algorhythms to sum the audio. And different dithering. Or do they just add together and divide by two heh
Old 2nd August 2005
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by not_so_new
I really liked / like PARIS. It was/is a great sounding DAW, very..... errrrr.. "brown" is the word I often use to talk about it. It was a great sounding system and I would probably have bought one if... I ened up with Samp but I have not installed it yet so we will see.

Anyway I always kind of thought the "brownness" of Paris was from the A/D converters but I never tried importing a session..... no wait that is not true.
..
Could that brownness be based on the graphics .

I believe the Paris "sound", or it's ability to soft saturate or whatever it was, was not in the software, but the hardware. I believe when you ran Paris natively, it was just like any other app, overloading with nasty digital distortion.

So I think you're right about it probably being the Paris converters, and not the software, but I really don't know...
Old 2nd August 2005
  #45
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I give up. I didn't say (or didn't mean) it was a HUGE difference but a very evident one.

Pan law or not the overal volume was the same after same balance.

You say you didn't try any test with Samplitude. Well try then. But try with live instruments not MIDI generated music.

I also found no perceivable difference between any othe DAW. But when I tried Samplitude the diiferrence jumped out. I tested Digital Performer, Protools LE, and Sonar with Samplitude. They all sounded the same except for Samplitude.

Anyway this subject has blown out of proportion, really. Its one of those try for yourself and then decide. But don't tell me I am hearing something that is not there (you are implying that). I know what I am hearing!

As for posting files. What will that prove? You need to compare the files live. Its not for me to prove anything! I really do not care if you believe me. Its up to you to make the effort. I am not about to start to download Samplitude and do the entire test for you. There is nothing to prove this way. You try it. You no like, then at least you tried.

I suggest you do a search on all the recording forums for "Sonar & Samplitude". There is a lot of other examples. I guess its mass hysteria.

I am through responding on this subject. It is becoming a battle of words and that never ends well. Just try for yourself.
Old 2nd August 2005
  #46
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Well, whatever, no big deal really, although I think a lot of myths become reality, like people saying Samplitude has a superior sound, and I just don't know if that's a fair statement, but, again, whatever...I mean, you're right, it's up to the individual to decide I guess....

I've been testing various DAWs, Samplitude cancels completely with Cool Edit Pro...I believe their pan laws are 0, I don't thnk you can change Cool Edit, not sure about samplitude... Sonar sounds much like most other DAWs to me at -3...

Obviously, volume and pan laws can make one thing sound better (or at least louder, and louder always seems better) than another, when, really there is no (or almost) no difference...

but whatever...no one has to believe what I say either
Old 2nd August 2005
  #47
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natpub's Avatar
Already said this in another thread on the same subject, but whatever.

We compared Sonar and Samp extensively, but we only use external summing.

As a result, there was no significant difference. That said, we disliked the Samp UI and other capabilities compared to Sonar. Out main use is for soundtrack scoring applications, so Sonar meets out needs perfectly. I do like D/P, but in the end Sonar is just faster for us and we prefer PC's, hehe.

Nuendo is really awesome for scoring too, but is kind of top heavy when it comes to our kind of workflow.

I would not find it surprising at all if Samp's internal summing sounded "different" than some other editing programs out there, so it may be a cool thing for folks who are strictly ITB, or it may suck :-)

Listen, test, make up your own minds for your own application :P



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