The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
 Search This Thread  Search This Forum  Search Reviews  Search Gear Database  Search Gear for sale  Search Gearslutz Go Advanced
Cakewalk by Bandlab getting glitchy audio DAW Software
Old 2nd June 2018
  #1
Gear Maniac
 

Cakewalk by Bandlab getting glitchy audio

I have never used Cakewalk products. Currently I use Reaper and have been very happy with it for ten years. Previously I used Digital Performer, Pro Tools and Opcode StudioVision.

I downloaded the Cakewalk by Bandlab software and installed it.I'm using it with an Arturia AudioFuse interface on a new HP laptop with 8th gen 4-core I7 processor. I launched it and it started scanning VST's, but it seemed like it was only scanning VST3 instruments. Then, it got stuck on NI Battery (I have Komplete 11). After a half an hour I cancelled the scan. The only instruments that show up are the Arturia V-Collection and Sonar.

I can deal with the rest of the instruments later. I just want to see how it handles VSTi instruments. I fired up the Matrix instrument and the Jupiter 8 instrument. Both produced glitchy sounds when more than one note was playing. This happened in buffer sizes of 256 and 512. I didn't try anything lower.

This makes it completely unusable for me. I haven't had glitchy audio playback ever, with any of the DAWs I have used. Is this common with this product?
Old 4th June 2018
  #2
JAT
Lives for gear
No. I would think the interface is the problem, and the drivers. That is usually the problem. Which drivers are you using - ASIO drivers are generally the best for glitch-free and low-latency performance. And those buffers are way to large - I used to run 124 10 years ago and it is half that and less now.
Old 13th June 2018
  #3
Gear Maniac
 

I'm using the ASIO drivers. I loaded one of their demo sessions and it played fine. I'm going to try it again. I'm not switching from Reaper, I just wanted to see what Sonor was about.

Last edited by mcmike; 14th June 2018 at 08:57 PM..
Old 14th June 2018
  #4
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcmike View Post

This makes it completely unusable for me. I haven't had glitchy audio playback ever, with any of the DAWs I have used. Is this common with this product?
Yes, unfortunately it is common, I was a long time Cakewalk/SONAR user, started with Pro Audio 9. All software has it's bugs etc, unfortunately Cakewalk/SONAR has always had MORE than it's fair share of bugs, it's flaky, can be very temperamental and quite unstable, audio engine dropout are all to common and can be brought on at will if you know how to push it's buttons (nothing exotic by the way) it is also rather crash prone, as shown by the recommendation that is often thrown around to keep one hand on the save short cut, and the advice often given to save often, this is all when compared to various other products available. Yes there are people who have, or at least say they have no problems with it, I never really did either, I just found other products that were far superior, far more stable, faster, and without all the annoyances and workarounds needed to make things work as they should that didn't, so I moved on, as by the way have many other long time users after the demise of Cakewalk last November forced their hand to check out the opposition. I, as I suspect others used it for long enough to know the many many workarounds required to make things work that don't work as described, and long enough to know what buttons not to press to avoid disaster.

All this is of course carried over to Cakewalk by BandLab, which if you read their forums there are people stuck in demo mode (demo mode for a free product? lol ), people not being able to install, it hasn't actually been a smooth release. Of course now that Cakewalk/SONAR/CbB is essentially freeware, I'm not sure things are going to get any better, Roland and Gibson were not able to turn Cakewalks fortunes around, what makes anyone think things are going to be any different now? It has been loosing money since pre Roland years, it hasn't been profitable/viable for well over a decade, and with good reason. It has a very well deserved bad reputation around the traps, and the main reason is because of it's buggy, flaky, temperamental, crash and dropout prone nature and past, which by the way is still present today. I wouldn't and couldn't in all good conscience recommend the product to anyone, you would do well to steer clear of it and choose another product.
Old 14th June 2018
  #5
Hi. I have not had any issues in SONAR, or Cakewalk by Bandlab. I think most issues are done between the chair and the pc Or poorly documented how to optimize it from the developer. I've not had a single crash or freeze in years. I also have Studio One 3 and mixbus 4. I tested REAPER as well. None of those have caused me any issues.
I've had to "optimize" each DAW setup to fit my use.
Perhaps check MIDI playback buffer in Preferences? It defaults to 250, but I always adjust that to 500.
Hope it helps.
All the best.
Old 14th June 2018
  #6
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jih64 View Post
it's buggy, flaky, temperamental, crash and dropout prone nature and
I guess I picked a bad day to try it . I'm going to uninstall it.

And to clarify, I'm not a newbie. I"m a former product manager at Akai, Digidesign/Avid and E-Mu, and product development manager at Tascam. I have been using sequencer software since 1983 on a Commodore 64. My previous DAW software use was Opcode Vision, Pro Tools, Opcode StudioVision and Digital Performer using Pro Tools hardware, and now Reaper. I also have dabbled with Logic and Cubase.

Thanks for the replies.
Old 14th June 2018
  #7
Lives for gear
I have been successfully using CbB. There were Win7 updates pending a reboot that caused some glitches for me. Everything was good again after they were applied.

I didn't see which OS you have.
Old 20th July 2018
  #8
Here for the gear
 

Successfully using CbB here.Have been for a long time. Not to say I dismiss the OP issues. I just think we need to know a bit more and maybe you need to look a bit deeper.
Old 20th July 2018
  #9
Lives for gear
 
ionian's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcmike View Post
I have never used Cakewalk products. Currently I use Reaper and have been very happy with it for ten years. Previously I used Digital Performer, Pro Tools and Opcode StudioVision.

I downloaded the Cakewalk by Bandlab software and installed it.I'm using it with an Arturia AudioFuse interface on a new HP laptop with 8th gen 4-core I7 processor. I launched it and it started scanning VST's, but it seemed like it was only scanning VST3 instruments. Then, it got stuck on NI Battery (I have Komplete 11). After a half an hour I cancelled the scan. The only instruments that show up are the Arturia V-Collection and Sonar.

I can deal with the rest of the instruments later. I just want to see how it handles VSTi instruments. I fired up the Matrix instrument and the Jupiter 8 instrument. Both produced glitchy sounds when more than one note was playing. This happened in buffer sizes of 256 and 512. I didn't try anything lower.

This makes it completely unusable for me. I haven't had glitchy audio playback ever, with any of the DAWs I have used. Is this common with this product?
Long time sonar user here and I just went through this. I never had this issue, updated Sonar to the bandlab version and had non-stop glitching and the CPU meters pegging all 12 meters of my 12 core. I know it's not a computer power issue because I have no problems with any other DAWs and never had before with Sonar.

I found a function buried in preferences called "Plug in load balancing" and I activated it (I never had it in the version I had before I updated) and it solved my issue. Try that out.

Last edited by ionian; 23rd July 2018 at 07:10 AM.. Reason: corrected name of function
Old 21st July 2018
  #10
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by ionian View Post
...
I found a function buried in preferences called "Plug in loading" and I activated it (I never had it in the version I had before I updated) and it solved my issue. Try that out.
More precisely, it's at checkbox at:
Preferences ... Playback and Recording ... Plug-in Load Balancing
Old 22nd July 2018
  #11
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ionian View Post
I found a function buried in preferences called "Plug in loading" and I activated it (I never had it in the version I had before I updated) and it solved my issue. Try that out.
Thanks. I'll try that.
Old 22nd July 2018
  #12
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MediaGary View Post
More precisely, it's at checkbox at:
Preferences ... Playback and Recording ... Plug-in Load Balancing
That worked. Thanks!
Old 23rd July 2018
  #13
Lives for gear
 
ionian's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcmike View Post
Thanks. I'll try that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcmike View Post
That worked. Thanks!
Happy I could help! Like I said, I went through the same thing which is weird because before that function existed, Sonar worked fine without it - now that they added it, Sonar doesn't work fine unless it's checked. When they added the function, I guess they changed how the program behaves when it's not checked?

Anyway happy to help. I've been working now a few days since I found that and checked it and I haven't had a single hiccup.
Old 27th July 2018
  #14
Gear Head
 

I can confirm that historically Cakewalk/Sonar was always a bit too glitchy comparing with other software. When using any software - OS itself, file managers, archivators, office suite, compilers, IDE, other DAWS etc. - it develops some feel what is acceptable level of bugs and glitches software can have. And unfortunately Sonar was always above "average" level. Noting very critical, it was still good program to make music, but crashes, unexpected behavior, glitches leading to hangs or requiring project re-open at some moment became too annoying. Used Cakewalk since Pro Audio 9 on different PCs and OSes from Win98 till Win7 and experience was the same. Tried to write few bug reports, but that was useless. Low level of quality control is just within DNA of Cakewalk developers. Now tried Bandlab version out of nostalgic reasons and during few days of usage got one crash during hardware scan, few UI glitches and media Browser unable to play some midi loops, which work well in other DAWs. When program is free there are little chances big investment will be done to improve overall quality. But for free it is very good DAW, it just required to lower quality expectations before trying it
Old 29th July 2018
  #15
JAT
Lives for gear
A lot of the glitches I have in CbB are from MS updates. That always seems to screw things up, from SONAR (which I still use) to CbB to my (admittedly old) email software. And with the "free" CbB there are a lot of newbie questions like "I'm using a reltek sound interface and my drums don't sound like John Bonham." So of course they are going to have a lot of technical problems which they don't even have the language to describe. And SONAR has always attracted musicians that had a PC already and a hankering to record themselves. But I've never found SONAR especially buggy or susceptible to crashing than a lot of my other Win programs. It runs great on most properly tuned PC, most of the time.

The biggest POS DAW I ever tried was Protools for PC, which wouldn't run and could barely crawl way back when it was released. But AVID has the Mac thing down ;-) Still, I walked away from PT for PC quicker than AVID did. And if I had as many problems as some have w/ SONAR I would have dropped it like a pin less grenade and figured it was my problem, since thousands of others apparently use it fine.
Old 13th August 2018
  #16
Lives for gear
 
Nonlinear's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by stacev View Post
...unfortunately Sonar was always above "average" level...crashes, unexpected behavior, glitches leading to hangs or requiring project re-open at some moment became too annoying...When program is free there are little chances big investment will be done to improve overall quality. But for free it is very good DAW, it just required to lower quality expectations before trying it
I have just started using CbB and have also found it to be a bit buggy/erratic - but I love some of the features so I’m hoping to stick with it. I have submitted several bug reports and they replied “confirmed and noted”. - so I am hopeful that this is still being worked as an active product. At least they took the time to check and reply!

HOWEVER - and I’m sorry if this sounds ungrateful - but even “free” becomes expensive if it wastes hours of your time fighting bugs. Still hopeful - we’ll see.
Old 14th August 2018
  #17
Lives for gear
 

I been using cakewalk products since the late 90's.
Glitches are typically due to things like not properly optimizing your OS or trying to do everything on the same drive.
I wouldn't even try and run it on a computer with less then one additional internal drive so I can write the wave files to an independent drive.

Most Laptops only have one internal drive so that leaves you SOL. I have a High end HP workstation laptop which I run for mobile work. Its got three internal drives and I optimized it for running audio and it screams running Sonar. It took awhile setting up because the unit only runs Win 10 Pro 64 bit. It was the first 64 bit system I've used as a DAW so getting the plugins properly set up in the right folders took a bit of self education.

In the end I wound up setting up a 32 and a 64 bit version of X1.

I was going to try the Band Lab version but simply haven't gotten around to it yet.
I hope the OP knows that the Bandlab Version is 64 bits only. If he's tried to set it up on a 32 bit machine its not going to run and may screw up his OS.

Other then that, you always want to check the computer's specs against the programs minimal needs.
The quickest way of getting in trouble is when your OS fails to meet the minimum specs of the machine. I know from previous experience, you may be able install the program on a machine that lacks the horsepower. That doesn't mean you'll be able to run it however. Pat attention to things like the Memory needed free hard drive space or you can kiss goodbye to that program ever running right.

You should also google up Optimizing computer for Audio and visit the Black Viper site for additional tweaks.
Win 10 is especially a huge pain in the ass to optimize properly and get it to run well. By default, Win 10 makes you log on through the Microsoft site which allows you to sync all your accounts together through the cloud. All that stuff is terrible for a DAW. You don't want to be surfing the net when recording. You have to change your MS account to Local so when you log on its bot going on line.

There's a ton of other stuff too, far to much to list here. I'm not what you'd call an expert but I been into computers for a living since the very first PC's were being sold. I've been running DAW's since the mid 90's when they first started coming out with 1G drives. I used to mix tape down to a computer then Burn CD's.
I was making old 1/4 Gig single core computers record 16 channel recordings by 1998. Slow as hell and loads of latency when mixing but they didn't crash.

Reaper is always going to run better by the way. It won the shootout on maximum number of plugins without crashing so there's something about its architecture which is low CPU Consumption.

ASlso you can forget about trying to run any of the Cakewalk plugins on other DAW programs. Cakewalk Plugins are not directly XST compatible. Cakewalk uses their own plugin format. The program incudes as converter which allows you to run Steinberger Compatible VST plugins on Cakewalk. It doesn't work the other way around. Cakewalk plugins are not going to load or be recognized by other DAW programs. Only your 3rd party VST plugins will be.

Not sure about the VSTI plugins. I suspect they might be the same deal because you need to use the plugin organizer to recognize them.
If you are trying to run either in Reaper, you can forget that idea before you even begin. Its not going to happen.
Old 14th August 2018
  #18
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by wrgkmc View Post
I been using cakewalk products since the late 90's.
Glitches are typically due to things like not properly optimizing your OS...
Those crazy system tweaks and optimizations could be important in late 90's. Now I just install programs on default OS and in most cases they work well. If some program works bad while most others work well on the same system, then there is the problem of that program. If program requires babysitting to make it work, it is bad too.
Old 18th August 2018
  #19
Lives for gear
 
Nonlinear's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by stacev View Post
If program requires babysitting to make it work, it is bad too.
YES! And not just CbB.

A big problem nowadays, IMO, is that software is no longer a "finished product" like it was years ago. What is being released nowadays - especially in the DAW market - are incremental snapshots of ever-evolving products. They are in perpetual "beta" mode. They keep adding new features which creates an ever growing list of bugs - some of which never get fixed while new ones are added on top.

The way this SHOULD be done, IMO, is to draw a line in the sand and say version XX has XX features. Any future "dot" revisions to that version are bug fixes, period. New features shouldn't get added until next full version (YY) release.

But cutting cost (i.e., increases profit) is all that seems to matter nowadays so very few companies seem to work this way. The public likes more "bells and whistles" so that's what they focus on.
Old 23rd August 2018
  #20
Gear Nut
 
Dark star Balla's Avatar
 

I'm having mad issues with Sonar. So I posted this on a different cakewalk page also. But I have signal both audio & midi but no sound. I am using an RME Fireface 800 with the asio drivers. Fully updated and Cakewalk is updated also. In case it is relevant I am using an i7 quad-core 3.5 with 32 gig memory and the p z 77 motherboard. I went through all the steps of tweaking my system using that glitch free guide. Each day I get the sound working and then once I shut down and start back up the next day I have to go through the process again for some reason. Sometimes if I'm sitting idle too long my sound of dropout and I'll have to go through all kinds of steps again messing with my system until I can get the sound back up sometimes it requires shutting down and rebooting or it could be as simple as closing Cakewalk and restarting it. Frustrating them the less. Just curious as to whether anyone else has or has had this issue? Sorry for the long thesis. Just trying to be as thorough as possible to see if anyone can help me resolve the issue and want to know the steps to take whenever it happens again in case it happens in the middle of a session and I need to get back up and running fast. Trying to find help where I can.

YouTube
Old 23rd August 2018
  #21
Lives for gear
 
Nonlinear's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark star Balla View Post
Each day I get the sound working and then once I shut down and start back up the next day I have to go through the process again for some reason. Sometimes if I'm sitting idle too long my sound of dropout and I'll have to go through all kinds of steps again messing with my system until I can get the sound back up sometimes it requires shutting down and rebooting or it could be as simple as closing Cakewalk and restarting it.
So it seems like what you're saying is that Cakewalk is not "remembering" your audio I/O settings? Did this just start? Did you update Cakewalk or anything else recently?

Do you have - or previously had - other versions of Cakewalk/SONAR installed? If so, perhaps the configuration files are getting tangled up. Try removing whatever you don't need and/or re-installing Cakewalk.

I'm not an expert on CbB/SONAR just another user offering suggestions. Hope you get it resolved soon and when you do please let us known what you found!
Old 23rd August 2018
  #22
Gear Nut
 
Dark star Balla's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nonlinear View Post
So it seems like what you're saying is that Cakewalk is not "remembering" your audio I/O settings? Did this just start? Did you update Cakewalk or anything else recently?
That is pretty much it and this has been an on going issue since installing this new CakeWalk by BandLabs. Been going back and forth with them fora while.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nonlinear View Post
Do you have - or previously had - other versions of Cakewalk/SONAR installed? If so, perhaps the configuration files are getting tangled up. Try removing whatever you don't need and/or re-installing Cakewalk.
I've done the reinstall thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nonlinear View Post
I'm not an expert on CbB/SONAR just another user offering suggestions. Hope you get it resolved soon and when you do please let us known what you found!
Thank you and that's why I'm here to get other/fresh points of view. I appreciate your input.
Old 24th August 2018
  #23
Lives for gear
 
Nonlinear's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark star Balla View Post
That is pretty much it and this has been an on going issue since installing this new CakeWalk by BandLabs. Been going back and forth with them fora while.
Unfortunately, as others above have said, I think it's stuff like this that prevented Cakewalk/SONAR from becoming a major player in commercial studios.

Hopefully the new owners will change this and not simply keep it on life support...
Old 24th August 2018
  #24
Gear Nut
 
Dark star Balla's Avatar
 

I guess I'm going to have to do an in depth comparison to ableton. I bought it to replace CakeWalk when they went down the 1st time but never got into it Because BandLabs brought CakeWalk back.
Old 24th August 2018
  #25
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark star Balla View Post
I'm having mad issues with Sonar. So I posted this on a different cakewalk page also. But I have signal both audio & midi but no sound. I am using an RME Fireface 800 with the asio drivers. Fully updated and Cakewalk is updated also. In case it is relevant I am using an i7 quad-core 3.5 with 32 gig memory and the p z 77 motherboard. I went through all the steps of tweaking my system using that glitch free guide. Each day I get the sound working and then once I shut down and start back up the next day I have to go through the process again for some reason. Sometimes if I'm sitting idle too long my sound of dropout and I'll have to go through all kinds of steps again messing with my system until I can get the sound back up sometimes it requires shutting down and rebooting or it could be as simple as closing Cakewalk and restarting it. Frustrating them the less. Just curious as to whether anyone else has or has had this issue? Sorry for the long thesis. Just trying to be as thorough as possible to see if anyone can help me resolve the issue and want to know the steps to take whenever it happens again in case it happens in the middle of a session and I need to get back up and running fast. Trying to find help where I can.

YouTube
Typing with thumbs...
Start with an empty project...no plugins.at all. Then add in the ones from the offending project. A court at a time. Troubles like the ones you describe are very frequently plugin-related.

As an example, I just had the new AS-Rack plug-in from Nomad Factory completely kill the Cakewalk USB 'soundcard' detection, and greyed out the Control panel. I have 60 or so other Nomad Factory plugins, but that one is deadly.
Old 24th March 2019
  #26
Here for the gear
 

I have found Cakewalk Sonar by Bandlab to be far superior with real-time audio latency and core sharing. I tried Reaper and its multi core multi thread sharing with any of the settings in its processor audio preferences is abysmal by comparison. Digital Performer 10 produces cpu spikes and for low latency it dose not compare with Sonar. I tried them both just to see if the rumors of superior multi threading especially with Reaper was true but the opposite turned out. Reaper and DP10 have poor multi threading and crackly low latency audio. Cakewalk Sonar by Bandlab has the best multicore threading and low latency realtime audio wins hands down, like 10 times better. I was surprised that Reaper was so bad.
Old 26th March 2019
  #27
Gear Addict
 

Cakewalk by Band Lab has been absolutely rock solid for me. It's by far the most comprehensive DAW going - particularly for VSTi performance and workflow.
Old 30th March 2019
  #28
Lives for gear
 
johnnyv's Avatar
Funny with most software,, people will try it for a few minutes and throw in the towel when things don't go the way they "think" it should. You could change the name of the software and the complaints will be the same. You need to live with any software for a week or so before you pass judgement. All the major DAWs are in pretty good shape these days and they all have a certain amount of bugs. Most are so insignificant as to not be show stoppers. Otherwise that DAW should be long gone.

I use Cakewalk 4 hour daily and on W10 I have never had a crash or notice anything weird. On an older W7 Laptop I get the occasional hang on closing which is due to my Audio driver, not Cakewalk. Audio drivers are HUGE when using any DAW. Some DAW's are not as sensitive to driver issues.

For those of us who have used Cakewalk for many years this is the most stable version ever. When Bandlab took over they stopped adding more and more features and set the crew to working on bug fixes. The results are obvious. One sure sign to me that they have got things under control is the Cakewalk forum is pretty quiet. And 90% of the complaints go right back to either pilot error or audio drivers.

If it has any fault it's that Cakewalk is overly complicated and has 3 ways to do most tasks. A lot of real good features are hidden and not obvious.
Old 31st March 2019
  #29
Gear Head
I've been using Cakewalk since version 3.0. Back then there were no audio recording... just GM MIDI. (did anyone ever use patch 128 - gunshot. )
One of the best versions I used was 8.5. Solid as a rock. I didn't change until Sonar Platinum and am now using Cakewalk BbB, which is virtually Platinum, for about two months and, knock on wood, have not had a single crash in all that time.

I used to work strictly with MIDI. I have a very old Roland JV-1010 external module and a Kentron SD 2... also external. But due to problems that have started with them I took the plunge and am now working exclusively with VST's and plugins. I'm happy to say that Cakewalk BbB is still running solid and without a hitch.
Old 1st April 2019
  #30
Lives for gear
 
johnnyv's Avatar
Not to pick. but the short version is CbB = Cakewalk by Bandlab. And I also noticed a few calling it Bandcamp which is another company entirely.

When Bandlab bought Cakewalk they could have changed the name but then they really would have messed with peoples heads. They kept the name so everyone would obviously know what the software was. Cakewalk used the name Sonar for a long, long time ( Roland years) for it's top of the line DAW's. They also had Home Studio and Music Creator and a few other low cost DAW's.

The series back in the Sonar 5, 6 7 and ending with 8.5 were pretty stable. Then came the dark ages with X1 and this is where I think they lost many users or like me I stayed with 8.5. X1 and X2 gave the software a much deserved "buggy" reputation. They added way to many features and never stood still long enough to get rid of the bugs that result in complicated code. X3e was the first stable version in years and I jumped back in then. Gibson bought from Roland and changed the naming system entirely and lost the numbers. We now had Artist, Professional and Platinum ( or Splat)

Sonar Platinum was selling for around $400. Most of us were on upgrade pathways so never paid full retail. And a few years back we were all offered a Lifetime free licence. Most of the whining about Gibson killing Sonar was from lifetime members who felt 2 years was a pretty sort lifespan! Then there were those who missed the lifetime deal who had just paid for a year of updates and got nothing.

CbB is the exact same version as Sonar Platinum but does not include a bunch of the 3rd party VST's that were included. This is obviously impossible. But we have licences for Addictive drums, Melodyne to mention just a few. After the shut down Overloud and a few others took pity on us and gave us unlock keys.

In the end, unless Bandlab goes down we Cakewalk users are in the good place right now. It's free and they fixed a lot of bugs and they are not done yet.

Last edited by johnnyv; 1st April 2019 at 03:07 AM..
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Forum Jump
Forum Jump