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Gibson Brands ceases development on all Cakewalk products Virtual Instrument Plugins
Old 1 week ago
  #151
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
I beg to differ. Part of the reason for me abandoning SONAR was my interaction with Noel on the Cakewalk forum. Numerous times I tried to explain technical things to him that he simply did not get. There were particular design decisions that made certain tasks impossible in SONAR. (Certain things were intentionally blocked in software because Cakewalk were afraid the flexibility would confuse customers. This was explicitly stated by Noel himself). I gave precise step by step explanations of the problems and easy fixes (basically just removing the intentional and artificial limitations) but Noel didn't understand the problem and kept saying that the SONAR workflow was better even though it made certain tasks impossible.

Alistair
That forum is absolute cancer for pros and anyone who needs advice on pro-features. I'm sure it's chased away as many pros as anythings.

For the record I'm a hobbyist, but try asking a "pro" question there and you'll get 10 replies from clueless morons and never get an actual answer.
Old 1 week ago
  #152
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norfolk martin's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmcecil View Post
to me ionians main point... and correct one ... is that Gibson did NOT buy a cash cow, wring out everything it could, and leave the rotting carcass. Gibson bought a rotting carcass hoping it looked better on the inside than the outside. And, by integrating it into their portfolio they could build enough brand pollination to resuscitate it. Gibson being in its own financial situation lead to the predictably awful approach to terminating Sonar. But, they are not to blame for the cash drag brought to the company other than the dumb decision to throw more cash at the money pit. Cakewalk killed Cakewalk. Gibson just did a ****ty job of dealing with it.
I agree that, in a lot of areas, the program improved after the Gibson purchase, though I went from version 4.5 to X1 and then on to Platinum pro, and never used the 8.5 version that some users seem to regard as the "best."

The frustration, IMO, is largely due to two issues.

The first is that it is a pain to learn a new DAW, and to lose project compatibility with (in my case ) over 10 years of projects that have been produced in Cakewalk;

The second is the loss of a number of "tied" VST modules when converting to another system.

The selling of "lifetime contracts" last year, and the modern practice of maintaining a front that a company is continuing and progressing until the day you pull the plug certainly didn't help users' perception of Gibson.
Old 1 week ago
  #153
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norfolk martin's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gordon View Post
That forum is absolute cancer for pros and anyone who needs advice on pro-features. I'm sure it's chased away as many pros as anythings.

For the record I'm a hobbyist, but try asking a "pro" question there and you'll get 10 replies from clueless morons and never get an actual answer.
I'm not a pro, but the most prolific forum advice givers did often seem to those with the least ability to analyze a question and determine a problem. The usual response was some variation on "user error" or "it's your hardware."

This is of course, the common curse of the internet .
Old 1 week ago
  #154
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by norfolk martin View Post
The first is that it is a pain to learn a new DAW, and to lose project compatibility with (in my case ) over 10 years of projects that have been produced in Cakewalk;
Of course people are in a hard spot if they choose this route. I still think the idea that your projects won't be available concern is a bit of chicken little. In other words, the projects that are in progress are the ones that you will have to convert at some point. But, I don't see why you'd lose access to your existing projects to pull something out.
Quote:
The second is the loss of a number of "tied" VST modules when converting to another system.
To me this is the major kick in the nuts. I fortunately chose to NOT buy into the proprietary plugins. I got burned by that in a video conversion app may years ago.
Quote:
The selling of "lifetime contracts" last year, and the modern practice of maintaining a front that a company is continuing and progressing until the day you pull the plug certainly didn't help users' perception of Gibson.
The lifetime contracts were a huge indicator that things were not going well. But, no company advertises going out of business until they are going out of business. Just like they can't announce upgrades and/or sales. If they did, it would kill sales and ensure going out of business. Again, I'm not defending Gibson. There are certainly classier ways to do some of these things. But, the events themselves are predictable and standard practice.
Old 1 week ago
  #155
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norfolk martin's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmcecil View Post
Of course people are in a hard spot if they choose this route. I still think the idea that your projects won't be available concern is a bit of chicken little. In other words, the projects that are in progress are the ones that you will have to convert at some point. But, I don't see why you'd lose access to your existing projects to pull something out.
I won't completely lose "access" because the raw .wav files of each track are still available. I'll lose most of the work I've already done on those projects.

My situation is perhaps a bit different to that which you are envisioning I've got a decade of mostly live 16+ track recordings that require a lot of work and manipulation to hammer into shape, and many of which I'm not finished with. A lot of plug ins, eq, volume envelopes, non destructive edits etc.

Unless someone come up with a converter to read at least part of the Cakewalk .CWP file format, I will have to start each one from scratch with a new DAW, or keep an "offline" Cakewalk machine ( which is the direction I'm heading in).
Old 1 week ago
  #156
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by norfolk martin View Post
Unless someone come up with a converter to read at least part of the Cakewalk .CWP file format, I will have to start each one from scratch with a new DAW, or keep an "offline" Cakewalk machine ( which is the direction I'm heading in).
Not trying to be argumentative, I just don't see why you just don't keep doing it in Sonar. It's not going to stop working for a long time. Anyhow, I'll let it go.

I guess my main thing was that although I'm no Gibson fan from a company perspective, it's a little narrow minded to just throw the bricks through their window. There are plenty of other windows that need that are more deserving of those bricks. And, in reality they may have done Sonar users a favor by keeping things going this long. You might have had to go through this a few years ago with a much much crappier version of Sonar.
Old 1 week ago
  #157
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norfolk martin's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmcecil View Post
Not trying to be argumentative, I just don't see why you just don't keep doing it in Sonar. It's not going to stop working for a long time. Anyhow, I'll let it go.
No offence taken, I think we're taking about different scenarios

I intend to go on using Sonar for mu existing projects. But, IMO, it can only be guaranteed to go on working if the machine is isolated from Windows updates. IME Microsoft pays very little attention to audio issues, and Windows updates are known for causing problems in existing Asio drivers and DAW setups.

However, isolating a machine is not that easy. Almost all plug-ins require online activation , and a lot of plug-ins "phone home" to check registration on a regular basis, so one can only run an offline machine for so long. (By example, my Focusrite interface came with a set of Softtube plugins , one of which I really like. But it won't run unless the dreadful "Gobbler" plug -in verification program is running and on-line, and it appears to re-confirm registration about every week!)

Hence, I'm left looking for a way to permanently kill Windows updates without taking the machine offline. Microsoft does not seem to like that idea. The only advice I've received so far is to disable the Windows update service from starting, although others have warned me that this can cause ancialliary problems

That's the sort of thing I mean by "pain in the neck."
Old 1 week ago
  #158
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javahut's Avatar
Old 1 week ago
  #159
JAT
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I use SONAR on a windows 7 machine and it works and only updates defender these days - if I let it, although I never connect it except to load new programs. It should be pretty stable for the next few years, I would think.
Old 1 week ago
  #160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by javahut View Post
Any company that thinks Les Paul Reference Monitors are a good idea... can't be doing much right.
Hory clap . . . that's not a joke!
Old 1 week ago
  #161
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by JAT View Post
I use SONAR on a windows 7 machine and it works and only updates defender these days - if I let it, although I never connect it except to load new programs. It should be pretty stable for the next few years, I would think.
Yeah, but eventually your hardware will fail.
Old 1 week ago
  #162
Gear Addict
 
ponzi's Avatar
I just furnished my living room with Les Paul (tm) chairs and sofas--as good as it gets!
Old 1 week ago
  #163
JAT
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gordon View Post
Yeah, but eventually your hardware will fail.
Hence "the next few years," which you quoted.
Old 1 week ago
  #164
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norfolk martin's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by javahut View Post
Any company that thinks Les Paul Reference Monitors are a good idea... can't be doing much right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gordon View Post
Hory clap . . . that's not a joke!
Yup, its true. For anyone that hasn't seen them, near-field monitors with a "striped maple" face and a sunburst finish.

Gibson Pro Audio - Les Paul Monitors

Next Week........the Gibson refrigerator in a maple sunburst finish with Fluffy pink and brown tolex interior. A genuine facsimile of Les Paul's signature is on the door, and it has gold speed knobs to control temperature.

Each interior tray is designed to look like the storage box in a vintage Gibson case, and holds plenty of "Les Paul special edition Miller Light" for "the last true rockers" to drink.

Celebrate the spirit of American freedom and the greatest guitar in Rock 'n' Roll history with the new "Les Paul Fridge!"
Old 1 week ago
  #165
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by norfolk martin View Post
Celebrate the spirit of American freedom and the greatest guitar in Rock 'n' Roll history with the new "Les Paul Fridge!"
been done already ... I actually want one of these for my workshop LOL

Old 1 week ago
  #166
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fireberd's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmcecil View Post
to me ionians main point... and correct one ... is that Gibson did NOT buy a cash cow, wring out everything it could, and leave the rotting carcass. Gibson bought a rotting carcass hoping it looked better on the inside than the outside.
Probably true. If Sonar was doing well Roland probably wouldn't have dumped it. As I mentioned in another thread I had suspicions that things were not well when they quickly jumped on the subscription bandwagon obviously to generate $$ and then the "lifetime" money grab. The financial problems of Gibson probably didn't help anything either.
Old 1 week ago
  #167
Lives for gear
 
JayTee4303's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by norfolk martin View Post
No offence taken, I think we're taking about different scenarios

I intend to go on using Sonar for mu existing projects. But, IMO, it can only be guaranteed to go on working if the machine is isolated from Windows updates. IME Microsoft pays very little attention to audio issues, and Windows updates are known for causing problems in existing Asio drivers and DAW setups.

However, isolating a machine is not that easy. Almost all plug-ins require online activation , and a lot of plug-ins "phone home" to check registration on a regular basis, so one can only run an offline machine for so long. (By example, my Focusrite interface came with a set of Softtube plugins , one of which I really like. But it won't run unless the dreadful "Gobbler" plug -in verification program is running and on-line, and it appears to re-confirm registration about every week!)

Hence, I'm left looking for a way to permanently kill Windows updates without taking the machine offline. Microsoft does not seem to like that idea. The only advice I've received so far is to disable the Windows update service from starting, although others have warned me that this can cause ancialliary problems

That's the sort of thing I mean by "pain in the neck."
We record to 3 primary PCs here, "quick and dirty" jams, improvs, collaborations, and compositions on the Live Room Vista Core Duo, 1-3 player master quality tracks on theWin7 I-7 in the Tracking Room, which houses synths and tube amps, and an I7 Win8 audio master PC in the control room.

Only the Core Duo is connected to the net full time. Primary plugs include Izotope and IK, we're running Sonar X2P, and we have zero problems with authentication on the offline machines.

Of course, we never trusted any cloud activity, 3rd party dongles, or forced update operating systems...for precisely this reason among MANY others.

The subscription model, and co-incident appearance of the Cakewalk fanbois on the forum were my warning indicators. Most of the competent forum participants either left or went silent at that time.

The "Lifetime Updates" HAD to be one of two things...a high confidence guarantee from a top -of- their-game vendor, or a last gasp red flag, and in the very visible environment described above, I had no doubt which of the two I was looking at.

My rules are very simple. My boxes, my drives, my network, my OS, my software. Any attempt to circumvent my rules is a red flag...that **I** am making a poor decision. I DO NOT trust my work to other peoples' systems, period.

That's why I have 3, I5 laptops running Win10 that have never, by design and discipline, touched the net since build-out. They serve their intended purpose beautifully, month after month, zero Redmond interference.

That's why the Gobbler Fiasco never was an issue here.

That's why one ancient, unused plugin, East West Ministry of Rock, requires an I-lok, which is behind the TR I7, that I haven't seen in years. No Waves.

No version 1 to version 2 UAD theft of service.

I DO NOT respect EULAs that attenpt to take control of my machines, period. If I cannot circumvent those EULAs, I choose other options before installation in production computers.

THEY...DO NOT...have your interest at heart.

Just say "No."

Or...lose your long work hours and benefits to Gobbler, Microsoft Cortana, I-lok, UAD, Avid, etc...that you can find a woeful example of here at GS EVERY WEEK.

It is a binary solution set. Either handle your needs via your own FINAL authority,...or LOSE.

There is no other option.

Taking production computers offline isn't a hassle if well planned. It is instead, freedom, confidence, and insurance.
Old 1 week ago
  #168
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frans's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by JayTee4303 View Post
...Of course, we never trusted any cloud activity, 3rd party dongles, or forced update operating systems...for precisely this reason among MANY others.
My rules are very simple. My boxes, my drives, my network, my OS, my software. Any attempt to circumvent my rules is a red flag...that **I** am making a poor decision. I DO NOT trust my work to other peoples' systems, period.
It is a binary solution set. Either handle your needs via your own FINAL authority,...or LOSE.
Exactly that. If YOU can not decide what is running, when something installs or if you need any ongoing online permission/consent to run it, you are dependent with a rope around your neck, waiting for some corporate entity to pull. It's like a cashless society - somebody else decides if your phone/credit card can pay or not. They pull the plug, you're S.O.L.
Old 1 week ago
  #169
Gear Head
Hi all, I’m sorry to hear about the end of development for Sonar. As a long time fellow Boston/Cambridge based software developer, we at MOTU certainly appreciate the effort and challenges that go into maintaining a successful DAW. We understand how important these products can be to our users for both their livelihood and creative pursuits. For those who are currently in search of a new DAW, I wanted to make sure that you’re all aware that MOTU offers a cross-grade from any other DAW software to Digital Performer 9.51, and in fact we recently announced that we're offering a 50% discount on all crossgrade purchases to $195 (regularly $395). This offer will be good through December 21 2017. You can check out the latest list of features DP has to offer here: MOTU.com - Overview
Lastly I wanted to share a way to contact me directly if you have any questions about any aspect of DP, I can be reached at: dpcrossgrade@motu.com
You can also feel free to give us a call here at MOTU: 617.576.2760
Old 4 days ago
  #170
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmcecil View Post
been done already ... I actually want one of these for my workshop LOL

I would actually be ok with that in my place.

Pete
Old 4 days ago
  #171
Gear Addict
 

Honestly, the minutia in threads spellbinds me.....

Cake did this to themselves. Gibson and sir "dumb ass" just did it in further.

Roland didn't dump this off because they were stupid, but because it was smart.

There has NEVER been a more hated (fanboi excluded) company in all my 20'ish years on bulletin boards. Other than the vitriol from "die hard" cakewalk fans ( most of which don't even understand the things they claimed, that didn't work) they are A-1 in the complaint department.

In fact, I'd not need as much therapy if it wasn't for my cakewalk experiences
Old 4 hours ago
  #172
Gear Head
 

Cakewalk must have had a pretty substantial user base. There is an opportunity for a slimmed down company to serve that, provided Gibson sells it for a reasonable price and the debt levels are serviceable. If Gibson really needs cash as badly as people claim then I suspect they'd shop it around

I don't get the hate aimed at Sonar. Over the last 15 years or so, I've found it to be no less stable or more problematic than the other major DAW programs. They all have their moments and issues.

The business perspective is a different matter. The parent company (Gibson) has some serious financial problems (or so I've read) so you really do have to take that into account. Cakewalk is not in a growth segment anymore and the market for DAWs is much changed from even 10 years ago. There is A LOT more competition and many of the new comers have low prices, different (less costly) upgrade models, and probably a lot less overhead than the Avid, Yamahas (Cubase) and Cakewalks of the world. Why would Gibson invest more in that sector? They want money. I'd argue (and this thread proves my argument) that Cakewalk also suffered a serious (and erroneous) perception issue. It just wasn't cool enough for many.

Cakewalk needed to adapt to the current reality. It didn't. I personally expect more casualties because its hard for a Yamaha to compete with Reaper, Bitwig, tracktion and whatever comes next. Basically, consumer segment of the DAW software industry is being deluged with low cost and frequently more efficient options. I'd argue that really only Avid is safe for now and only in the pro segment. Logic is as well because Apple sees it as a strategic necessity.

I wish the ex employees luck with whatever they do next but i hope someone saves and refocuses Cakewalk/Sonar
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