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Gibson Brands ceases development on all Cakewalk products DAW Software
Old 13th January 2018
  #301
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmcecil View Post
Your lack of understanding doesn't make it a bad analogy.
Just for the record, my critique wasn't from a lack of understanding, more a commentary on the banality of it...

trust me, not much to not understand.
Old 13th January 2018
  #302
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jmcecil's Avatar
Although, there is no "websters" definition. There is an industry understanding and expectation. I can find endless definitions in manuals and online that state something like this one
Quote:
DAW Stands for "Digital Audio Workstation." A DAW is a digital system designed for recording and editing digital audio. It may refer to audio hardware, audio software, or both.
I however have never seen one that referred to a MIDI Sequencer as a DAW. Not ever. Even the people that make them don't call them DAWs.
Old 13th January 2018
  #303
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sharke View Post
The question "can a MIDI-only sequencer be a DAW" could quite credibly be answered more than one way, the way I see it. I can appreciate both arguments. Which further reinforces my feeling that there is no watertight, correct definition.
Let's look at it a different way ...
If you publicize that you have a DAW
Bob asks if he can record some vocals
You say "oh, I can only work with MIDI"

That conversation makes no sense.

If you publicize that you have a MIDI Sequencer, Bob will have some idea of what you can record and process.

Again, this is going back to when the applications were individual things. Yes, MIDI Sequencing is built into a lot of DAWs now. But I stand by the statement that a MIDI sequencer ... even a workstation ... is not a DAW. Simply because there is a connotation involved that pre-existed the merger of the two application capabilities. MIDI is an appendage of a DAW, it is in and of itself not a DAW.
Old 14th January 2018
  #304
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DAW is for digital audio.

Midi Sequencer is a program that lets you program and control midi sequences.

This is common sense for those of us who actually came up with this stuff. I've been doing this for about 30 years now so I remember when this stuff was distinct products. I think a lot of the issues are that younger kids today don't know a time when midi sequencing wasn't part of a DAW so they don't get the concept that a DAW is for Digital Audio and midi sequencers control the midi aspect. So that might be where some of the problem with the semantics are.

When I moved away from using my Amiga for this and started using a Roland MC-50 when it first came out, was called a "Hardware Sequencer" not a DAW. After that I moved to the PC and used Cakewalk v5. That's where I started with Cakewalk. I remember the big hullabaloo when they eventually added audio in version 4 I think - that's why they renamed it "Pro Audio" because now it did Audio. So before they added audio, it was still called a Sequencer. Because it didn't deal with Digital Audio (or the DA of DAW).

Hell, even before digital audio, Cakewalk referred to itself as a sequencer.

Old 14th January 2018
  #305
JAT
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It helps if you worked with music back then. As I recall, Digidesign (or maybe one of the more exotic digital software recorders) started using Digital AUDIO Workstation to separate their computer program that recorded and manipulated AUDIO, as opposed to the myriad of MIDI sequencers. When Cakewalk and other of the old sequencing companies incorporated AUDIO recording into their programs they pushed the WORKSTATION idea, since those programs could do both audio and MIDI, unlike their audio only brethren.

It was just a little earlier that hi-end synths were advertised as WORKSTATION synths once they included MIDI editing - you didn't need a stinking computer to compose (or more importantly, play back live) MIDI. Little doubt Cake and others were gloaming onto that aspect of WORKSTATION. You can do everything with our Program.

According to the original meaning of DAW, only Vegas and other such audio-only software should be considered true DAWs today. However, through the common usage DAW has come to mean all-in-one music software. As I said earlier in this thread, I think most users today expect their DAW to do both audio and music. So I would still be hesitant to call it a DAW, without the addendum that it doesn't do MIDI.
Old 15th January 2018
  #306
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Wow.. that was a long interesting debate on DAW's and Sequnsers. Now, what about the new term ''beatmaker, drummer'' and you produce? If you play everything and do percussion which produces beats are you a producer or a beatmaker?

I have been with Sonar for so many years it's like losing a family member. Cakewalk has overcome some difficult times and I pray that they overcome this one as well.
It seems as though most of today's Beatmakers couldn't handle Sonar's learning curb, I enjoyed that about it. Maybe that killed many newcomers in this younger generation that want's microwave everything and all things sounding alike. I had a feeling something was going on when they stopped charging for upgrades. I'm going to keep using Sonar Platinum until it becomes unusable, and I'm praying that it will never happen.
Old 15th January 2018
  #307
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reggmail View Post
I'm going to keep using Sonar Platinum until it becomes unusable, and I'm praying that it will never happen.
They're still using cars from the 50s in Cuba, ingeniously and resourcefully at that.

While something from a marketing and hype aspect may be for all intents and purposes be defunct, it shouldn't preclude one from using it to their fullest and be productive with it. It's not like a piano, even though it's hundreds of years old, is useless, right?

...on your other point, with the introduction of the 'Beat Thang', taints and sullies any association with 'beatmaker', jus' sayin'. Prolly safer with the 'producer' tag...
Old 15th January 2018
  #308
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reggmail View Post
Wow.. that was a long interesting debate on DAW's and Sequnsers. Now, what about the new term ''beatmaker, drummer'' and you produce? If you play everything and do percussion which produces beats are you a producer or a beatmaker?

I have been with Sonar for so many years it's like losing a family member. Cakewalk has overcome some difficult times and I pray that they overcome this one as well.
It seems as though most of today's Beatmakers couldn't handle Sonar's learning curb, I enjoyed that about it. Maybe that killed many newcomers in this younger generation that want's microwave everything and all things sounding alike. I had a feeling something was going on when they stopped charging for upgrades. I'm going to keep using Sonar Platinum until it becomes unusable, and I'm praying that it will never happen.
I'm in two minds about those beat making kiddiwinks. If you browse the EDM Production Reddit on a regular basis you will be shocked at how eager some of them are to become the next great producer without knowing the slightest thing about music (questions like "how do I make chords? How do I write a melody?") But at the same time, the production techniques they're using are extremely involved and technical, above and beyond those generally practiced by your average home producer mixing more traditional music. Sidechaining, multiband processing, complex routing, intricate mid/side processing etc are all part of their everyday arsenal and I have to admit, some of the electronica/EDM productions you hear these days are produced extremely well in terms of clarity, balance, instrument separation etc.
Old 19th January 2018
  #309
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmcecil View Post
So anyhow, back on topic. When moving from Sonar, I'm having a hard time finding another fusnic that can contraptualize my lithography. Any convergences?
Would you mind translating this into English? I lost my Captain Midnight secret decoder ring a long time ago.
Old 19th January 2018
  #310
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Quote:
Originally Posted by musicman691 View Post
Would you mind translating this into English? I lost my Captain Midnight secret decoder ring a long time ago.
According to previous post it was suggested that we can use any words we want any way we want because it makes sense to us. Surely communication will still be possible. Evidently, your question suggests that maybe definitions are important for communication. Thanks for asking
Old 19th January 2018
  #311
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Allright y'all - Shut up.

I'm gonna be 56 Sunday.
I use Sonar Platinum connected to the internet with Windows 10 and Automatic Corruptdates disabled.

I use Acronis true image to keep it all just the way it is.

I have only used SONAR since leaving tape behind.
It always did more than I need and still does. And that's analog recording with some midi here and there.

If it's cooler to run a different daw, fine, you all fight over who's the hippest of them all. I'm hold up in a high mountain cabin with a cherry setup and no ya cant come see it.

So there.

Hey Sharke
Old 20th January 2018
  #312
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bitman View Post
Allright y'all - Shut up.

I'm gonna be 56 Sunday.
I use Sonar Platinum connected to the internet with Windows 10 and Automatic Corruptdates disabled.

I use Acronis true image to keep it all just the way it is.

I have only used SONAR since leaving tape behind.
It always did more than I need and still does. And that's analog recording with some midi here and there.

If it's cooler to run a different daw, fine, you all fight over who's the hippest of them all. I'm hold up in a high mountain cabin with a cherry setup and no ya cant come see it.

So there.

Hey Sharke
Hey Bitman!

Sonar does analog recording??
Old 20th January 2018
  #313
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sharke View Post
Hey Bitman!

Sonar does analog recording??
Yeah! Analog goes in, Analog comes out.

Don't make me come over there.
Old 20th January 2018
  #314
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I'm not convinced. I think you think there's a reel of tape inside your computer.
Old 30th January 2018
  #315
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For me, (and for all the angst posted) sonar represents the epitome of possibilities, and the agony of defeat.

They tried, in many ways, but alas it all comes down to one thing.......

Nuendo is 20-40% better in it's audio engine
Old 30th January 2018
  #316
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toowrongfoo View Post
For me, (and for all the angst posted) sonar represents the epitome of possibilities, and the agony of defeat.

They tried, in many ways, but alas it all comes down to one thing.......

Nuendo is 20-40% better in it's audio engine
As said before (and being an ex-Sonarite) the program could have had the world as it's oyster just like Shia LeBouef could have had the gold mine that is the Indiana Jones franchise. With the exception of Logic it's the last sole operating system daw s/w that I know of; heck even long-time Mac-only DP went dual platform. Yeah they were working on a Mac version but cheaped out on the code using a translator program because they didn't have the programming chops to do a true Mac Version.

I don't know who I'd trust to pick up the intellectual property (assuming Gibson doesn't use it as some kind of tax write off) and make a real go of it. I do know I wouldn't trust MicroSnot with it and Apple already has ilLogic.
Old 30th January 2018
  #317
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Quote:
Originally Posted by musicman691 View Post
As said before (and being an ex-Sonarite) the program could have had the world as it's oyster just like Shia LeBouef could have had the gold mine that is the Indiana Jones franchise. With the exception of Logic it's the last sole operating system daw s/w that I know of; heck even long-time Mac-only DP went dual platform. Yeah they were working on a Mac version but cheaped out on the code using a translator program because they didn't have the programming chops to do a true Mac Version.
The lack of a Mac version of Sonar had no or very little bearing on its failure. This is always brought up by people that don't understand that there were much more fundamental issues with the software and the company but it is a red herring.

Alistair
Old 30th January 2018
  #318
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sorry, but 20-40% never gets old .....

ah, me and humor two ships that never pass in the night......
Old 31st January 2018
  #319
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
The lack of a Mac version of Sonar had no or very little bearing on its failure. This is always brought up by people that don't understand that there were much more fundamental issues with the software and the company but it is a red herring.

Alistair
It's far from a red herring. Corporate thought it was a good idea but unfortunately didn't give it the resources needed. Adding a true Mac version would have sold a LOT more units that would have helped the bottom line.
Old 31st January 2018
  #320
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Quote:
Originally Posted by musicman691 View Post
Yeah they were working on a Mac version but cheaped out on the code using a translator program because they didn't have the programming chops to do a true Mac Version.
That's a little contradictory. Correct statement would be "either they cheaped out or they didn't have the programming chops."

Personally I don't think the problem with Cakewalk was ever programming chops and I think the Cakewalk coders were excellent (the two mastering plugins they stupidly gave away in their final year were superb). The reason why the Mac version never took off was a lack of money. They didn't have the resources to code a Mac version properly AND develop new features AND work on bugs and stability. Ideally they should have plowed as much as they could into bugs and stability, because the program is a mess. I'm still plodding along with it to get some final large projects finished and boy, it's annoying.

The fanboyism in the Sonar community didn't help at all. Their frantic attempts to discredit and silence anyone who had serious issues with the program pretty much got them the Sonar they deserve. I left the Sonar Facebook group today after its moderator jumped down my throat for mentioning bugs and stability issues in response to someone who made the delusional claim that Sonar's only problem was a "lack of marketing." He said "why are you here, I don't even recall you ever helping anyone" - this, after at least a couple of years of helping and chiming in with hundreds of people's problems. They really are a cult, I don't know how else to describe it.
Old 31st January 2018
  #321
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sharke View Post
The fanboyism in the Sonar community didn't help at all.
What, as opposed to the fanboyism for other DAW platforms (looking at you, Logic Pro)?
Old 23rd February 2018
  #322
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So, BandLab is taking over Cakewalk:

BandLab Technologies Announces Acquisition of Cakewalk Inc. Assets >> BandLab Blog
BandLab Technologies x Cakewalk | Important Announcement

Surely there's a thread dedicated to this, but damned if I saw it...
Old 23rd February 2018
  #323
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dluther View Post
So, BandLab is taking over Cakewalk:

BandLab Technologies Announces Acquisition of Cakewalk Inc. Assets >> BandLab Blog
BandLab Technologies x Cakewalk | Important Announcement

Surely there's a thread dedicated to this, but damned if I saw it...
< sarcasm >Yay, Sonar on my watch so I can compose my own ringtones and alarms. < / sarcasm>
Old 23rd February 2018
  #324
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmcecil View Post
< sarcasm >Yay, Sonar on my watch so I can compose my own ringtones and alarms. < / sarcasm>
BandLab actually has pretty impressive technology. For example, they have an entire DAW, with 2 million users, running in the browser.

I met with them at NAMM. They seem passionate about music creation.

Pete
Old 23rd February 2018
  #325
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Psychlist1972 View Post
BandLab actually has pretty impressive technology. For example, they have an entire DAW, with 2 million users, running in the browser.

I met with them at NAMM. They seem passionate about music creation.

Pete
It's a brilliant move on BandLab's part.

The only thing that can derail them now is if Kylie Jenner tweets something bad about them...
Old 23rd February 2018
  #326
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Psychlist1972 View Post
BandLab actually has pretty impressive technology. For example, they have an entire DAW, with 2 million users, running in the browser.

I met with them at NAMM. They seem passionate about music creation.

Pete
I put that in sarcasm quotes on purpose
However, the focus of their technology seems to target a different demographic than the old Cakewalk demo. They may actually be going the right direction though. I wasn't actually taking a shot at BandLab as much as the seeming disconnect between the Cakewalk user base and BandLab user base.

In reality pulling Sonar from the ashes is a good thing regardless. Especially with the "no cost to existing users" statements. It will be interesting to see how the company visions affect the product.
Old 23rd February 2018
  #327
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmcecil View Post
However, the focus of their technology seems to target a different demographic than the old Cakewalk demo.
They can incorporate CW's IP within their platform.

While allowing all the CW users to continue on with a familiar tool that many have had a long investment and commitment.

Sounds like a win win...
Old 23rd February 2018
  #328
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 12tone View Post
They can incorporate CW's IP within their platform.

While allowing all the CW users to continue on with a familiar tool that many have had a long investment and commitment.

Sounds like a win win...
Again, I was being sarcastic. I understand the implications and possibilities.
Old 23rd February 2018
  #329
I'm with you guys... there's cause for concern, but a living software is better than a not-to-be-updated legacy product or, worse, a completely orphaned product (in most cases, we'd like to think... ) Here's a still developing thread with CW god-uncle Craig Anderton briefly appearing: Cakewalk Lives


I've used CW/Sonar since CW Pro Audio 6 in 1996.
Old 24th February 2018
  #330
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1 View Post
Here's a still developing thread with CW god-uncle Craig Anderton briefly appearing: Cakewalk Lives
Craig kind of jumped on PreSonus' bandwagon when Cakewalk tanked. His 'tip of the week' posts are now being published there, not at the CW forum.
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