The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
 Search This Thread  Search This Forum  Search Reviews  Search Gear Database  Search Gear for sale  Search Gearslutz Go Advanced
Single instrument overdubs in stereo?
Old 8th September 2006
  #1
Gear Addict
 
Dr Funk's Avatar
 

Thread Starter
Single instrument overdubs in stereo?

Hi Bruce

I know you're a big fan of recording in stereo - as am I!! When you're recording single instrument overdubs, do you record much in stereo, and do you ever move the player 'off centre' in front of the mics, so that the instrument appears 'naturally' either to the left or right in the mix?

Also, would you mind sharing any examples of stereo techniques you prefer for particular applications? I saw the pic of the Rode XY mic on acoustic guitar - are there any others?

By the way, I'm reading your book at the moment and thoroughly enjoying it! It's an honour to have you here. heh

Cheers

Frank McGing
Old 17th September 2006
  #2
Viking
 
Bruce Swedien's Avatar
 

If you are further interested in learning about Blumlein Pair technique...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Funk View Post
Hi Bruce

I know you're a big fan of recording in stereo - as am I!! When you're recording single instrument overdubs, do you record much in stereo, and do you ever move the player 'off centre' in front of the mics, so that the instrument appears 'naturally' either to the left or right in the mix?

Also, would you mind sharing any examples of stereo techniques you prefer for particular applications? I saw the pic of the Rode XY mic on acoustic guitar - are there any others?

By the way, I'm reading your book at the moment and thoroughly enjoying it! It's an honour to have you here. heh

Cheers

Frank McGing
Thanks Frank....

Here's a photo of me setting up my two favorite Royer R-122's in Blumlein Pair... I think I was going to record a small vocal group...

If you are further interested in learning about Blumlein Pair technique... We must talk... It's a fantastic Stereo Mike Technique...

Bruce

Attached Thumbnails
Single instrument overdubs in stereo?-brucie-pair.jpg  
Old 17th September 2006
  #3
Gear Addict
 
Dr Funk's Avatar
 

Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Swedien View Post

If you are further interested in learning about Blumlein Pair technique... We must talk... It's a fantastic Stereo Mike Technique...
Yes, please!! Any info you'd like to share would be great! I'm a recent convert to Blumlein stereo, as I've only just bought a matched pair of mics with a good Figure 8 pattern. So far, I've used a Blumlein pair on acoustic and electric guitar and Hammond/Leslie and it's been a revelation! I recorded a guitar solo the other day from about 3 feet away from the amp, and that extra bit of air and natural depth was just what it needed to sit beautifully in the mix. Plus it collapses perfectly into mono.

Speaking of mono compatibility, what do you think of ORTF stereo? Although I also love using this technique, I've always considered it to be something of a trade-off in mono compatibility.

Cheers

Frank
Old 18th September 2006
  #4
Gear addict
 
ramjet's Avatar
 

yes please, do talk more

all this info from you Mr Swedien is most interesting

cheers David Luscombe
Old 18th September 2006
  #5
Gear interested
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Swedien View Post
If you are further interested in learning about Blumlein Pair technique... We must talk... It's a fantastic Stereo Mike Technique...
Hello!

I would love to learn about this technique and what advantages it has compared to XY or MS recording processes.

Thank you in advance!

Roland Rath
Old 19th September 2006
  #6
BoW
Gear interested
 
BoW's Avatar
 

..yes!

Would be a pleasure to hear more.

Boris Baargeld
Old 19th September 2006
  #7
Viking
 
Bruce Swedien's Avatar
 

One other microphone that is a truely omni mike is the B &k 4006...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Funk View Post
Hi Bruce

I know you're a big fan of recording in stereo - as am I!! When you're recording single instrument overdubs, do you record much in stereo, and do you ever move the player 'off centre' in front of the mics, so that the instrument appears 'naturally' either to the left or right in the mix?

Also, would you mind sharing any examples of stereo techniques you prefer for particular applications? I saw the pic of the Rode XY mic on acoustic guitar - are there any others?

By the way, I'm reading your book at the moment and thoroughly enjoying it! It's an honour to have you here. heh

Cheers

Frank McGing
Frank......

About stereo.....

The brilliant Alan Dower Blumlein made his first stereophonic recordings in the 1930's. In essence all the details of modern stereophonic microphone technique may be found in the British patents of Mr. Blumlein. His inventive imagination conceived a recording and reproducing system that he called “Binaural”. It was, in truth, a real stereophonic reproduction system.

Stereo microphones

I’ve heard it said that stereo microphones are too expensive for the average studio to buy. That statement is absolutely untrue! There are many microphone companies today that are making excellent microphones and most of these companies offer extremely well executed stereophonic microphone systems for surprisingly reasonable prices.

I’ll mention a few of the new breed of high-quality stereo microphones. I personally own many examples of these great mikes. I have used all of them.

The Royer Ribbon SF-12 stereo coincident ribbon microphone....
This mike is the most expensive of the new stereo mikes. It sounds absolutely
fantastic! It is well worth the price.

The Audio-Technica - AT825 OnePoint® X/Y is a permanently charged-fixed backplate electret stereo condensers microphone.....

The Beyerdynamic MCE 82 - Stereo condenser is a permanently charged-§fixed backplate electret stereo condensers microphone..... for x/y recording...

The Rode NT-4 -Rode NT4 is a stereo condenser microphone.
The two 1/2 in. capsules are in an X/Y arrangement, mounted at 90 degrees of each other. This stereo mike is DC-biased, and externally polarized. A true condenser mike....

The Sennheiser MKE-44P is a is a permanently charged-fixed backplate electret stereo condensers microphone.....

The Audio-Technica, the Beyerdynamic, Sennheiser and the Rode stereo microphones are priced below $1,000.00. Definitely within the budget restrictions of a personal use studio. You have no excuse not to own and use one of these incredible stereophonic mikes! Your music recordings will benefit greatly!

My personal favorite Stereo Microphone of all of these is the Rode NT-4. and it is a real bargain price-wise as well!!!

Here’s something interesting... Two identical monophonic microphones, properly positioned, will give an end result recording that is virtually the same as what you would get from a stereo microphone. However, the big advantage of using a stereo mike is that the two capsules are sonically matched, and the stereo mike system is very easy to use. Just set it up and away we go!

Of course, some of my favorite, truly sterophonic recordings that I have done, were recorded with two, or in some cases three, separate microphones. These, of course I recorded with the Decca-Tree technique. If you are interested in the Decca-Tree, let me know and we can talk about it. It is a bit involved...

A good example of one of these, is the overture for the soundtrack album for the movie, “THE COLOR PURPLE”. I recorded this incredible piece of music with my old pal Quincy Jones in 1985 in the beautiful, huge music soundstage at Burbank Studios in Burbank.

What an experience! The gorgeous overture for “THE COLOR PURPLE”, written and orchestrated by Quincy, played by 80 of Hollywood’s best musicians, in one of the world’s supreme large scoring stages.

However, the plot thickens! This gets really interesting! My main microphones for this fantastic event were three lovely Neumann M-50 omni-directional( And I do mean omni-directional!) mikes mounted on a large Decca-Tree.(More about that later.) Of course I used many sweetener mikes for solo instruments, but at least 75% of the orchestra mix comes from those three microphones!(The Neumann M-50 and the Neumann M-150 are probably the most genuinely omni-directional microphone systems that are available to our industry. One other microphone that is a truely omni mike is the B &k 4006...)

PLEASE NOTE: JUST BECAUSE A MICROPHONE HAS AN OMNI-DIRECTIONAL PATTERN INDICATED ON IT, DOES NOT MEAN THAT IT IS AN OMNI-DIRECTIONAL MICROPHONE!!! We can talk about this also, if you want...

Bruce Swedien


Old 19th September 2006
  #8
Gear Head
 

>Here's a photo of me setting up my two favorite Royer R-122's in Blumlein Pair...<

Hi Bruce,
Would you say that the Blumlein Pair microphone technique is the cornerstone of your Acusonic Recording Process?

Old 19th September 2006
  #9
Here for the gear
 

Hi Bruce,
I saw a video about the evolution of the decca tree technique from one of our last soundengineering conventions that interested me a lot. Do you think that tracking and reproduction techniques for orchestras have to evolve empirically or do you think that new creative and revolutionary methods are possible like e.g. in the pa technics (like line arrays)?
As for stereo, you mentioned the new stereo mics that are partly electret based. These type of capsule was for a long time a big no-no for many pro's, how do you think about that?
Also, the ribbon mike has a great comeback generally, not at least because of russia's and china's great marketing with price dumping. Do you think it lost it's popularity before, because of the high prices and the lack of good preamps (with lots of quality gain) at the time when silicon pushed tubes out of the market?
Also, in times of the new and highly affordable DAW hardware, what is your opinion about a good workflow, i.e, do you like 'on-tape' tracking, or do you prefer to characterize the final sound 'in the mix' like it's preferred in europe (I wonder if this is based on our institutional broadcast history...)
Do you prefer downmix and mastering in the analogue domain completely or do you consider mixing in-the-box.
I ask this because nowadays highest bit- and samplerates are available in good enough quality, good dithering is possible and affordable (Weiss-R8brain-Barbabatch) and first 'liquid audio' digital hard and software (like the focusrite liquid mix) shows indistinguable results compared with expensive analogue equipment. I still like the analogue domain very much but digital has evolved in a way that i had not dreamed of in the 80's, especially in the last few years.

Sorry, i know, a lot of questions, but i'm really excited about what you think about all that.

Kind regards,

Martin
Old 19th September 2006
  #10
Lives for gear
 
Curtis Franklin's Avatar
 

I would love for you to talk about an omni not being an omni.

Thank you.
Old 19th September 2006
  #11
Lives for gear
 
David Herbert's Avatar
 

Hello Bruce (first post in the forum),
Please continue on this fascinating topic.
Thank you,
David Herbert
Old 20th September 2006
  #12
Gear interested
 
Rockastle's Avatar
 

More about the DECCA-TREE Technique

"Of course, some of my favorite, truly sterophonic recordings that I have done, were recorded with two, or in some cases three, separate microphones. These, of course I recorded with the Decca-Tree technique. If you are interested in the Decca-Tree, let me know and we can talk about it. It is a bit involved..."

Hi Svensk!

Thanks for bringing this topic. I've never tried this technique before as I've only seen it used in large scale recordings such as orchestras, specially for film soundtracks.

What kind of sound sources would you record with this technique?
Can you set a Decca Tree with regular mic stands?
How does the pattern of the mic used would affect the end result?

Thanks a lot.

Hernan, Buenos Aires. rockastle@hotmail.com
Old 20th September 2006
  #13
Gear addict
 
ramjet's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Swedien View Post
Thanks Frank....

Here's a photo of me setting up my two favorite Royer R-122's in Blumlein Pair... I think I was going to record a small vocal group...

If you are further interested in learning about Blumlein Pair technique... We must talk... It's a fantastic Stereo Mike Technique...

Bruce

hi

yes could you please talk more on how, and where you would utilise the Blumlein Pair techique.

cheers David Luscombe
Old 20th September 2006
  #14
Lives for gear
 
Krubbadoo's Avatar
 

Bruce, I must thank you so much for all your generosity towards us. Talk about knowledgeable advice. You're da man!
Krubb
Old 20th September 2006
  #15
BoW
Gear interested
 
BoW's Avatar
 

Decca tree

Hello, Bruce Swedien,

..interesting.

Have you been using delay lines to get the sweetening microphones in correlation with the L-R channels of the Decca?

I remember, that you used to mike the different instrument groups of the orchestra seperately in Stereo on that particular project, or am I wrong?

Is the Decca-Tree your favourite main microphone technique? Why?

Greetings : Boris Baargeld

Old 20th September 2006
  #16
Viking
 
Bruce Swedien's Avatar
 

My favorite true stereophonic microphone techniques is “Blumlein Pair” method.....

Gearslutz All.......

My unquestionably favorite true stereophonic microphone techniques is the “Blumlein Pair” method. This fantastic microphone technique was conceived in the fertile imagination of Alan Dower Blumlein. It is perhaps the best known of all single point stereo microphone techniques. Almost every engineer has at least heard of a “Blumlein Pair”, as crossed figure-of-eights (NOT cardioids as some mistakenly believe) at 90 degrees are commonly known, even though Blumlein himself patented other techniques. It incorporates two bi-directional microphones, one on top of the other to make the capsules as coincident as possible, angled at 90 degrees to each other. It is probably the most candid of all truly stereophonic microphone techniques.

You can hear this techique in action, for yourself, on the Andre Crouch choir on the song "Man In The Mirror" on Michael’s “BAD” album.

Bruce Swedien

Old 21st September 2006
  #17
Gear Head
 

Bruce,

I'm new to gearslutz, and am a big fan of your forum. Quick question for you, regarding the Blumein mic technique. Looking at the mics, are you singing into one straight on and the other at 90 degrees, or are they each 45 degrees off axis. And the Royer R-122...is it a bi-directional mic? Does the technique work if the mics are not bi-directional?

Thanks for investing so much time in our futures!

Daren Smith

Old 21st September 2006
  #18
Gear Addict
 
Dr Funk's Avatar
 

Thread Starter
Hi Bruce

Thanks for all the info on stereo setups!! I agree now, having had a bit of time with Blumlein pairs that it really is the way to go!

To return to the thread title, could I get your thoughts on recording single instrument overdubs in stereo? And more to the point, double tracking in stereo. This is something that's on my list of things to try. Example: set up a Blumlein pair, record an acoustic guitar with the player sitting in front of the mics but to the left, and then double track with the player moved to the right. Result? A double tracked guitar that's already panned and has a great natural depth. I suppose it's double Blumlein?

Well, that's the theory - but does it work in practice?

And thanks again for being here - it means a lot!

Frank
Old 22nd September 2006
  #19
Viking
 
Bruce Swedien's Avatar
 

Absolutely NOT!!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Ettel View Post
>Here's a photo of me setting up my two favorite Royer R-122's in Blumlein Pair...<

Hi Bruce,
Would you say that the Blumlein Pair microphone technique is the cornerstone of your Acusonic Recording Process?

Mark....

Absolutely NOT!!!!

Bruce Swedien


Old 22nd September 2006
  #20
Gear maniac
 

For those interested, there's a bit more info on the blumlein pair here...

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/chris.b...Coincident.htm

Bruce,
I'd be most interested to know your opinion or experience with the Soundfield Microphone. As a location sound recordist I love this mic:-)

Tom
Old 24th September 2006
  #21
Viking
 
Bruce Swedien's Avatar
 

Delay lines with this technique are for the most part uneccessary. ....

Quote:
Originally Posted by BoW View Post
Hello, Bruce Swedien,

..interesting.

Have you been using delay lines to get the sweetening microphones in correlation with the L-R channels of the Decca?

I remember, that you used to mike the different instrument groups of the orchestra seperately in Stereo on that particular project, or am I wrong?

Is the Decca-Tree your favourite main microphone technique? Why?

Greetings : Boris Baargeld

Boris........

Never!!! Delay lines with this technique are for the most part uneccessary. Miking an Orchestra is a huge and complex topic....

Boris asks-------->Is the Decca-Tree your favourite main microphone technique?------>Bruce answers - Boris, all I can say to that question is: Decca-Tree is ONE of my favorite microphone techniques, but it most definitely is NOT my MAIN mike technique...

Bruce Swedien

Old 25th September 2006
  #22
BoW
Gear interested
 
BoW's Avatar
 

Orchestra recording

Dear Bruce,

sorry for beeing a bit unclear about what I meant..

With main microphone, I meant "Hauptmikrophon" (D), that microphone that is usually located around the conductors place when recording an orchestra, compared to the "Stuetzmikrophone" (sweetening microphones) in the orchestra for reinforcing soloists or instrument groups.

I just was curious about your favour of the "Hauptmikrophon"-technique. I saw a couple of pictures, where you used the "Decca-Tree". However, many engineers rave about MS, NOS or ORTF and regard the "Decca" as well as the Brauner "Atmos" as "unscientific". Like many - often gear related - topics in the Pro Audio business the arguments about that are fought with the fierce conviction of crusaders.

Your main favourite microphone technique is the Blumlein-pair... I know...

It's such a pity, that this forum is closed, soon.

Greetings : Boris Baargeld
Old 26th September 2006
  #23
Gear nut
 
pinwale's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drumhum View Post
For those interested, there's a bit more info on the blumlein pair here...

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/chris.b...Coincident.htm
I feel like I've seen this text somewhere before!

Bruce, it's such a thrill to chat with someone of your stature about this. Do you ever use Faulkner arrays, or Jecklin disks, or even the Bruck 360 dual M-S approach? I'm a big fan of stereophonic microphone techniques. Any other information you could paste in here would be really appreciated.

Cheers!

Fortrill Thatcher
Leeds, UK
Old 26th September 2006
  #24
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Swedien View Post
Gearslutz All.......

My unquestionably favorite true stereophonic microphone techniques is the “Blumlein Pair” method. ...

Have you had a chance to tried the SoundField MKV? With the tetrahedral capsule arrangment, it seems to be a quick-n-easy "Blumlein-in-the-box" mic.

I've been researching the SoundField mic and it dawned on me that I should be asking opinions of folks who consistently use Blumlein (instead of engineers who usually record with space-pair or XY).

Thanks for your insights,
Jason
Loading mentioned products ...
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Similar Threads
Thread
Thread Starter / Forum
Replies
Freddo30 / So much gear, so little time!
5
Geddyleewannabe / So much gear, so little time!
7
AdamJay / Remote Possibilities in Acoustic Music & Location Recording
4
Midlandmorgan / So much gear, so little time!
0

Forum Jump