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No Mics That Sweetwater Does Not Sell?
Old 8th May 2017
  #31
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Animus View Post
This is why mic shootouts are kind of silly when you think about it. They are dependent on the source so much. All they tell you is what mics sounded the best on the particular source they recorded. Better than nothing I suppose if you can't audition the mics yourselves. Kudos to all for the hard work making this happen.
+1

Buying a mic without auditioning it first for a weekend is crazy in my book!

Everyone knows theres is no "best" mic only "most appropriate" or "best match"
for this singer - on this song.

Sometimes the best match is a cheap dynamic - some boutique LDC's are on epic fail on some singers (great singers!) so you have to keep an open mind and a varied mic locker.

The only mic shoot out of importance to me is the ones I do in my studio with the mics I have available or I have on demo.

The ones on the internet are just a bit of fun entertainment
Old 8th May 2017
  #32
Quote:
Originally Posted by Animus View Post
This is why mic shootouts are kind of silly when you think about it. They are dependent on the source so much. All they tell you is what mics sounded the best on the particular source they recorded. Better than nothing I suppose if you can't audition the mics yourselves. Kudos to all for the hard work making this happen.
Will a shootout tell you what a mic will sound like on your voice? No.

Will a shootout tell you what a mic will sound like on any other singer's voice? Not really, but you'll know more than you did if you've never heard it before.

Most importantly, though, will you know more about how the mic sounds compared to others that you might be familiar with? I think the answer is yes. And being more informed is always better than the alternative.
Old 8th May 2017
  #33
Quote:
Originally Posted by thehightenor View Post
So ....

Why were the other 49 mics mediocre compared to the Redd mic (the current GS flavour of the month) I own a few past "flavours of the month" - and I would mind adding a Redd to my locker (after a demo of course)

What exactly made them mediocre?

All I was saying is given a different set of singers/genre and the whole perspective would change.

But clearly I miss understood your point - fair enough.
Why is the sky blue? Because it is. I listened to 50 microphones on the Sweetwater page and decided that only one of them was worthy of the term, "special", to my ears & in my opinion, which I went out of my way to state clearly,

It is assumed and obvious that no microphone would work for every singer or sound source on earth. But....at a certain point, that remains entirely up to the User of said equipment. It is open ended. There is no answer to be found. But yea, I have more than one microphone in my stable. I have several. Each unique in their own way.

So to answer your question, I didn't hear anything blow me away except for the chandler. Maybe it won't blow away my other mics on sources. I am going to get one in house and see.

Because I do my own evaluations.

To call something uniquely new a "flavor of the month" illiterates the differences between our expectations of such things here at Gearslutz. You wonder about the misinformed commentary, and I wonder about a Tool in relation to my work.


peace
Old 8th May 2017
  #34
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Mixwell View Post
Why is the sky blue? Because it is. I listened to 50 microphones on the Sweetwater page and decided that only one of them was worthy of the term, "special", to my ears & in my opinion, which I went out of my way to state clearly,

It is assumed and obvious that no microphone would work for every singer or sound source on earth. But....at a certain point, that remains entirely up to the User of said equipment. It is open ended. There is no answer to be found. But yea, I have more than one microphone in my stable. I have several. Each unique in their own way.

So to answer your question, I didn't hear anything blow me away except for the chandler. Maybe it won't blow away my other mics on sources. I am going to get one in house and see.

Because I do my own evaluations.

To call something uniquely new a "flavor of the month" illiterates the differences between our expectations of such things here at Gearslutz. You wonder about the misinformed commentary, and I wonder about a Tool in relation to my work.


peace
I've been pro in this industry for 38 years. I've bought over the decades many "flavours of the month" some have gone on to be life long tools - others got sold after the honeymoon period faded.

I see you're a dealer and I have no idea if you're going to stock the Redd mic? So I'm not implying you have vested interest, just wanted to make that clear.

But calling a Blue Bottle, Bock 251 and M Ref C (all of which have been used to cut vocals on mutli platinum records) "mediocre" compared to the Redd is exactly what turns the Redd into the "GS flavour of the month" imho.

For what it's worth I'm going to arrange a demo of the Redd too .... it's hard to resist (lol) and I'm sure it won't disappoint (but it might - you never know till you try).

It's good with me though and I'm certain you know pro audio inside out.

Best

Last edited by thehightenor; 9th May 2017 at 08:57 AM..
Old 9th May 2017
  #35
Quote:
Originally Posted by thehightenor View Post
I've been pro in this industry for 38 years. I've bought over the decades many "flavours of the month" some have gone on to be life long tools - others got sold after the honeymoon period faded.
We are getting pretty "circular" here...I mean, if we're going to nit pick around it...lets just be real with each other. We are here looking for new sh#t.

Quote:
I see you're a dealer and I have no idea if you're going to stock the Redd mic? So I'm not implying you have vested interest, just wanted to make that clear.
Yea, I sell em. I have been a dealer for Chander gear for about....8 years maybe? Yea, the ones that come in, get sold. If that's what you're asking.

Quote:
But calling a Blue Bottle, Bock 251 and M Ref C (all of which have been used to cut vocals on mutli platinum records) "mediocre" compared to the Redd is exactly what turns the Redd into the "GS flavour of the month" imho.
To be completely honest, I do find those mics mediocre in real life. This is no different. I have used all three, and out of the three you mention I like the Bock the best, but I don't think its as special as the price dictates. In other words, I wouldn't pay that price for it's sound. The Blue Bottle sounds like sticking your head into a bowl of oatmeal and personally, the "WOW" factor of the Manley wears off once you listen to it a few times. I find it harsh usually. Sometimes it sounds OK. As does that Dull Bottle mic.

Are we talking about real opinions about microphones or What other people use to make platinum wall hangers?

I guess I am confused....

Quote:
For what it's worth I'm going to arrange a demo of the Redd too .... it's hard to resist (lol) and I'm sure it won't disappoint (but it might - you never know till you try).
This might sound like I am trying to be a smart ass, but now I am curious why you aren't demoing the other 49 mics as well, or at least the ones that people make platinum hits with.

Quote:
It's good with me though and I'm certain you know pro audio inside out.
I don't know pro audio inside and out. I know my own tastes inside and out because I live with them day in and day out.
Old 9th May 2017
  #36
Lives for gear
Quote:
Are we talking about real opinions about microphones or What other people use to make platinum wall hangers?

I guess I am confused....
Well, I owned a Blue Bottle and all the vocal caps - it was a dissapointment to me, I thought it sounded average on my voice - I sold it and lost £1750, but still I have respect for it as I have heard some truly beautiful vocals recorded with it.

I would like to demo a decent 251 replica though either Bock or Tele (maybe Fea will do one soon) I love edge termintaed caps they have a completely different vibe to an M7 for instance, I already own a boutique U47 replica which is my current go to.

I would like to demo the Redd mic to see where it fits between the 251 and 47 thing which I personally find to be somewhat polar opposite - listening to the Sweetwater clips it sounded to have some tube compression and enhancement in a nice way - it reminded me of my Rode Classic which alluded to that kind of sound but never really got it right.

The Redd mic is definately it's own thing - in a good way I think.

Last edited by thehightenor; 9th May 2017 at 09:52 PM..
Old 11th May 2017
  #37
Lives for gear
Hey High Tenor-
Not in the shootout alas, but well worth checking out [along with the Bock and T-Funk both of which can be quite a good match to the right singer] in the 251 flavor profile is the Mojave MA-1000... For what it's worth, I personally think [like all Mojave products] it's a pretty good value.

And I highly agree you should try mic's when possible on your voice or customer. Barring that a well done, calibrated shoot out is a pretty handy tool.

Happy Recording-

Jonathan

Last edited by Jonathan@FPA; 11th May 2017 at 04:28 AM..
Old 12th May 2017
  #38
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ddageek View Post
As much as some real classics would have been fun, ummm DuH ! This is a dealer doing a demo!
They have a shoot out comparison coming (done in their studio) of the Telefunken C12. U47 and 251E up against the very best vintage versions of the same model mics we could find- some from Blackbird rental, some from Telefunken 's private collection. With male and female voice. It was done to show the sales folks the difference so they could be accurate in their descriptions to customers and understand how close the Tele's were to the real thing. So that should be available very soon.

Brad

What I was saying was coming above is now posted in its own Sweetwater Mic Shootout thread.

Last edited by Brad Lunde; 31st May 2017 at 05:46 AM.. Reason: new info
Old 20th May 2017
  #39
Gear Guru
 
Brent Hahn's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by brucerothwell View Post
Any of the included mics ones that Sweetwater does not sell?

If not, isn't this all just a big advertisement?
Since I know nothing about how big retail works, I think it'd be interesting to know why Sweetwater won't or can't sell particular brands. It can't just be on the basis of quality.
Old 20th May 2017
  #40
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
Since I know nothing about how big retail works, I think it'd be interesting to know why Sweetwater won't or can't sell particular brands. It can't just be on the basis of quality.
Retail chains only sell products they can get in quantity.

Some boutique mic makers cannot supply in sufficient numbers of units.

Plus you need to be able to show a certain standard of manafacturing if a big retail chain is going to offer normal levels of support in terms of returns and repairs.
Old 22nd May 2017
  #41
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
Since I know nothing about how big retail works, I think it'd be interesting to know why Sweetwater won't or can't sell particular brands. It can't just be on the basis of quality.
I'll tell you this, which was a big revelation since coming to Sweetwater less than two years ago. There are brands that we would like to carry that cannot (or are not prepared to) manufacturer the quantities that we could sell. That's definitely a factor. They might have to expand their manufacturing or personnel drastically. Some just aren't interested in doing that. I've heard that several times since coming here.
Old 22nd May 2017
  #42
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynn Fuston View Post
... There are brands that we would like to carry that cannot (or are not prepared to) manufacturer the quantities that we could sell. That's definitely a factor. They might have to expand their manufacturing or personnel drastically. ...
Then maybe there's a side to that that implies their craftsmanship involves time & skill - handmade & quality control - & can not be mass produced.
Old 22nd May 2017
  #43
Quote:
Originally Posted by aremos View Post
Then maybe there's a side to that that implies their craftsmanship involves time & skill - handmade & quality control - & can not be mass produced.
Well, scalability is definitely a factor. But there are companies that can maintain "handmade & quality control" (quoting you) that have managed to do that for generations and still have scaled up to meet incredible demand. There are many examples of vendors who have done that. But it's not easy.

NOTE: Just because a company doesn't want to keep up with demand (or expand demand) doesn't inherently mean that the quality is higher. Those two are not inextricably linked. There are companies where you sign up to buy their product and they'll get it to you when they finish it. That could be six months from now or two years from now. Just give them the money and wait.

The truth is that there are some companies that are happy having only a handful of employees and don't want big business headaches. I remember when I first encountered this some 20 years ago. I offered to advertise for a business and they were like "No, we're selling everything we make right now and we're good with that. We don't really want to make twice as many units or work twice as hard. So no thanks."

Different people have different priorities.
Old 22nd May 2017
  #44
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
Since I know nothing about how big retail works, I think it'd be interesting to know why Sweetwater won't or can't sell particular brands. It can't just be on the basis of quality.
Let's say your advanced audio. One guy and a handful of help and a factory in china that he visits often.

Does he really need to give a portion of the sale to a reseller or just do it direct himself? Would he want to double his unit volume and lower his portion of the profit?

Sweetwater must a take a portion of the cash to support the sales. So until you get very large with factory automation, it does not make sense to use them for sales.
Old 22nd May 2017
  #45
Gear Guru
 
Brent Hahn's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by elegentdrum View Post
Would he want to double his unit volume and lower his portion of the profit?
Double the volume for half the profit would be a wash and nobody would want to do that. Obviously.

But make it more like quadruple or sextuple and the numbers start to work. If, that is, the headaches don't increase along with it and you find yourself to be no longer a mic designer, but someone who spends all day doing things like getting bids for parking-lot striping and workers' comp insurance.

I had a pair of bosses who grew their studio from a little two-guy thing into a major NYC "facility," where they became multimillionaires who spent all their time managing and wheeling and dealing. One of them thrived on it, the other guy was miserable.
Old 24th May 2017
  #46
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lame pseudonym's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by brucerothwell View Post
Any of the included mics ones that Sweetwater does not sell?

If not, isn't this all just a big advertisement?
Oh, those darn evil capitalists !!
Old 24th May 2017
  #47
Lives for gear
 

I am not sure in most cases its the way you guys are talking about quadrupling sales, or that it a decision about whether you want a dealer to share in the profit. That assumes too much, that most product already has sustaining sales and wide awareness. That would not be true.

Most pro audio manufacturers need access to customers to tell their story to that customer. If its great, if customers know about your stuff they will buy it. Your stuff does what nothing else does! But you can't tell that story all by yourself. Forums can really help but its still not enough. Inventors are often not good story tellers or business guys. You need dealers to bridge the gap between the manufacturer and customer. If you read about it on a forum and it sounds awesome but no dealers have it or know anything about it, it doesn't sell very well. If the business is only you and you can live on very low sales maybe you can survive. But most manufacturers today cannot possibly live on those kind of numbers, the cost of the equipment needed to build things is very very high.

Just like a studio: if its just you and you own all the gear and you do stuff you like to do in there and its not your sole source of income, fine, that works. But if you aren't rich enough to just buy a console and a big HD rig and a pair of ATC 45s plus all these plug ins and outboard and microphones, you better be making money with it to make that worth it.

So I think whether a dealer carries it has more to do with convincing the dealer on the idea of your stuff, for them to see how unique it is, how different it is, how well it works and how you will take care of them and their customers if there is problem. You have to get in there and work hard even after you've invented this amazing thing. Again, much like a studio- you have to convince a user that you can do this better, differently that anyone else, how unique you are, how you'll take care of them. And as most studio owners know, getting studio customers is NOT easy. You have to work very hard to sustain it.

Brad
Old 1 week ago
  #48
Gear Head
Sure, Sweetwater is an awful company with really horrible people working there -BUT, this demo is really well done and useful.
Old 1 week ago
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prospect View Post
Sure, Sweetwater is an awful company with really horrible people working there -BUT, this demo is really well done and useful.
What? This is a very confusing post.
Brad
Old 1 week ago
  #50
Gear Head
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad Lunde View Post
What? This is a very confusing post.
Brad
Bad companies/bad people can sometimes do useful things. Just because they are horrible, doesn't mean they get everything wrong. How is that confusing?
Old 1 week ago
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prospect View Post
Bad companies/bad people can sometimes do useful things. Just because they are horrible, doesn't mean they get everything wrong. How is that confusing?
Because they aren't a bad company with bad people. Did something go wrong to make you think that?

Brad
Old 6 days ago
  #52
Gear Head
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad Lunde View Post
Because they aren't a bad company with bad people. Did something go wrong to make you think that?

Brad
Yes. I also thought that was a known thing. But, rather than go into it here, this mic comparison they did is pretty great.
Old 6 days ago
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prospect View Post
Yes. I also thought that was a known thing. But, rather than go into it here, this mic comparison they did is pretty great.
Okay, I have to address this "known thing" idea.

I've been on this board for a long time and I also visit Sweetwater and all the other dealers in the US. I have known these US dealers over a long period of time (30+ years for most of them). We focus on the best of the best in product through the best of the best in dealers in the US. If I thought a dealer was screwing one of our end customers I'd be all over that and would not sell them. I have fired dealers before and avoid other dealers- sometimes very large ones. I'm more selective than most manufacturers/distributors.

Over the years I've heard bad things about ALL my dealers at one point or another as there are conflicts that occur in commerce. Sometimes its misunderstandings, sometimes its mistakes, sometimes its personality conflicts, sometimes its product failures that make a mess for the end customer. I get calls from those end users when they feel they have been abused or screwed over. The dealers that are on my roster for my brands are all dealers that have proved themselves to do what's right and fix things that I call them about.

I am very proud of my dealer group, I think they are the best set of dealers we've ever had. And none of them have a reputation for being bad people or a bad company. How could a dealer grow in this market doing that? Impossible.

Now about the demo. I worked hard to get the Telefunken Diamond demo on site and Mark Hornsby at Sweetwater Studios, Sweetwater marketing department (and Lynn Fuston) worked hard to support us and film it. From my perspective, Sweetwater (and the rest of my dealers) want anything we can give them that helps the end users get more information or insight- unfiltered and honest. The Diamond demo was an expensive affair to film, edit and get the audio right. There was absolutely no push from Sweetwater to alter or tilt the results or favor one brand over another. They were honorable and did the right thing.

We hope to do this same demo at our other dealers and in fact we are doing something quite like it at AES on Wednesday at 7pm at Platinum Studios in NYC. The Telefunken crew and Dan from Alto will be there.

Brad
Old 6 days ago
  #54
Gear Guru
 
Brent Hahn's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by prospect View Post
Yes. I also thought that was a known thing.
If you had a problem with them, no that's not a known thing. You didn't post on GS about it, at any rate. If you're simply bagging on them based on hearsay, well, that's pretty low.

I say that having had a serious issue with my Sweetwater rep several years ago. It got really ugly, the owner stepped in, they put things right.
Old 5 days ago
  #55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad Lunde View Post
Okay, I have to address this "known thing" idea.

I've been on this board for a long time and I also visit Sweetwater and all the other dealers in the US. I have known these US dealers over a long period of time (30+ years for most of them). We focus on the best of the best in product through the best of the best in dealers in the US. If I thought a dealer was screwing one of our end customers I'd be all over that and would not sell them. I have fired dealers before and avoid other dealers- sometimes very large ones. I'm more selective than most manufacturers/distributors.

Over the years I've heard bad things about ALL my dealers at one point or another as there are conflicts that occur in commerce. Sometimes its misunderstandings, sometimes its mistakes, sometimes its personality conflicts, sometimes its product failures that make a mess for the end customer. I get calls from those end users when they feel they have been abused or screwed over. The dealers that are on my roster for my brands are all dealers that have proved themselves to do what's right and fix things that I call them about.

I am very proud of my dealer group, I think they are the best set of dealers we've ever had. And none of them have a reputation for being bad people or a bad company. How could a dealer grow in this market doing that? Impossible.

Now about the demo. I worked hard to get the Telefunken Diamond demo on site and Mark Hornsby at Sweetwater Studios, Sweetwater marketing department (and Lynn Fuston) worked hard to support us and film it. From my perspective, Sweetwater (and the rest of my dealers) want anything we can give them that helps the end users get more information or insight- unfiltered and honest. The Diamond demo was an expensive affair to film, edit and get the audio right. There was absolutely no push from Sweetwater to alter or tilt the results or favor one brand over another. They were honorable and did the right thing.

We hope to do this same demo at our other dealers and in fact we are doing something quite like it at AES on Wednesday at 7pm at Platinum Studios in NYC. The Telefunken crew and Dan from Alto will be there.

Brad
The guy said it was a good test,

He was probably talking about all the Sweetwater cube people who don't use microphones every day of their lives,
Old 5 days ago
  #56
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Lenzo's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by prospect View Post
Sure, Sweetwater is an awful company with really horrible people working there -BUT, this demo is really well done and useful.
They have been one of the most reliable and honest companies I have ever dealt with and I've purchased a lot of stuff from them over the years. Your post doesn't make any sense. You certainly don't know most of the people there. In fact you probably don't know any of them. And to be more specific, my rep, Yuval Fuchs has always gotten my order shipped the day I ordered it and has been the only rep from any company I've purchased from, to follow up and make sure I got the item I ordered. He also has been very helpful with any questions I've had.
L.

Last edited by Lenzo; 5 days ago at 05:00 PM..
Old 5 days ago
  #57
Gear Head
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
If you had a problem with them, no that's not a known thing. You didn't post on GS about it, at any rate. If you're simply bagging on them based on hearsay, well, that's pretty low.

I say that having had a serious issue with my Sweetwater rep several years ago. It got really ugly, the owner stepped in, they put things right.
I'm not "bagging on them based on hearsay" - it's on nearly 2 decades of buying gear from various dealers, and the most awful experiences being with Sweetwater car salesmen style tactics. Assuming otherwise, is pretty low, Brent. Further, not at any point did I say that my specific experiences were "known things" - it was a general statement because in conversations at AES, and other trade events, eyes roll when Sweetwater comes up - because they are generally a terrible company with terrible people.

Funny thing, my experience was similar to yours. Sales rep went berserk, and "management" stepped in to resolve the mess the low life created - and funny thing, they offered me a coupon and "direct line to manager" in exchange for not detailing my experiences on online forums.
Old 5 days ago
  #58
Gear Head
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lenzo View Post
They have been one of the most reliable and honest companies I have ever dealt with and I've purchased a lot of stuff from them over the years. Your post doesn't make any sense. You certainly don't know most of the people there. In fact you probably don't know any of them. And to be more specific, my rep, Yuval Fuchs has always gotten my order shipped the day I ordered it and has been the only rep from any company I've purchased from, to follow up and make sure I got the item I ordered. He also has been very helpful with any questions I've had.
L.
That's great that you have had positive experiences. I wish I could say the same, because demos like this comparison are fantastic. However, myself and other working folks I know have had pretty awful experiences.
Old 5 days ago
  #59
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Lenzo's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by prospect View Post
That's great that you have had positive experiences. I wish I could say the same, because demos like this comparison are fantastic. However, myself and other working folks I know have had pretty awful experiences.
Just a note to say that I don't know if a first time buyer can request a specific rep. I would think you could. But I'm sure some reps are better than others. Yuval has always been very good to work with and as I said, I can pretty much count on the fact that when I order something, he gets it shipped very quickly. A couple of times I had a question or two and left a message. My calls were returned very quickly.
L.
Old 4 days ago
  #60
Quote:
Originally Posted by prospect View Post
this demo is really well done and useful.
Glad you liked it. A lot of people worked really hard to do it right and do it well. I hope the Vocal Mic Shootout will be a valuable resource for the recording community for years to come.

Last edited by Lynn Fuston; 1 day ago at 02:19 PM..
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