The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
help with ceiling cloud over drums; how thick?
Old 4th April 2011
  #1
Gear Nut
 

help with ceiling cloud over drums; how thick?

Hello,

I recently moved and am trying to get my new room setup. It has hardwood floors, drywall ceiling/walls, and a 10'' ceiling. Currently in the process of adding absorption in the corners.

I want to add a ceiling cloud over the primarily recording areas (drums mainly, also some guitar and vocals). I'm not sure how large to make the clouds.

From what I've read, you want the cloud to cover the area being recorded... so have the drums footprint mirrored on the ceiling. How thick should I make them, and how far off the ceiling should they hang? I'll be working with OC703 (or the roxul equivalent).

thanks!
Corey
Old 5th April 2011
  #3
SAC
Registered User
 

Generally, the minimum you want to consider in order to increase the low end frequency extension is a 4" thick panel suspended 4" from the boundary/wall surface.
Old 5th April 2011
  #4
Gear Guru
 
Glenn Kuras's Avatar
If your ceiling was only 8' or lower I would say stick with 2" with a 2" gap, if for no other reason to keep height in the room. But since you have 10' then I agree with SAC, 4" with a 4" gap.
Old 5th April 2011
  #5
Gear Nut
 

Thanks, I was thinking either 4 or 6 inches would be good.

The lost 8 or 12 inches from the ceiling is a total non-issue for me. Is there any other reason to go with 4 over 6?

thanks again,
Corey
Old 5th April 2011
  #6
Gear Guru
 
Glenn Kuras's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by coreybox View Post
Thanks, I was thinking either 4 or 6 inches would be good.

The lost 8 or 12 inches from the ceiling is a total non-issue for me. Is there any other reason to go with 4 over 6?

thanks again,
Corey
If you can go 6" then go for it. The thicker the better. thumbsup
Old 5th April 2011
  #7
Lives for gear
 

you could also design your traps to be on a pulley system...e.g have the ceiling traps flush with the ceiling when room is not in use, and then lower the traps down to have the desired gap from the ceiling when recording.

im surprised with room dimensions usually being such a constraint that we dont see more designs that are dynamic and can be in one position for recording/mixing and another position when not.
Old 8th April 2011
  #8
Lives for gear
 
RKrizman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Glenn Kuras View Post
If your ceiling was only 8' or lower I would say stick with 2" with a 2" gap, if for no other reason to keep height in the room. But since you have 10' then I agree with SAC, 4" with a 4" gap.
Noob question I know, but is 2" with a 2" air gap better or worse than 4" mounted right on the ceiling? (and no, that's not what she said).

-R
Old 8th April 2011
  #9
Lives for gear
 
avare's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by RKrizman View Post
Noob question I know, but is 2" with a 2" air gap better or worse than 4" mounted right on the ceiling? (and no, that's not what she said).
It is worse.

Andre
Old 10th April 2011
  #10
Lives for gear
 
RKrizman's Avatar
 

Thank you for the pithy answer.

-R
Old 11th April 2011
  #11
Gear Guru
 
Glenn Kuras's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by RKrizman View Post
Noob question I know, but is 2" with a 2" air gap better or worse than 4" mounted right on the ceiling? (and no, that's not what she said).

-R
If you are only dealing with upper mids/higher frequencies then 2" with a 2" gap will work fine. But if dealing with lower frequencies then go with the 4" with a 4" gap.
Old 12th April 2011
  #12
Lives for gear
 
RKrizman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Glenn Kuras View Post
If you are only dealing with upper mids/higher frequencies then 2" with a 2" gap will work fine. But if dealing with lower frequencies then go with the 4" with a 4" gap.
This I know, of course, but that wasn't the question.

-R
Old 12th April 2011
  #13
Gear Guru
 
Glenn Kuras's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by RKrizman View Post
This I know, of course, but that wasn't the question.

-R
Not as good??? Better?????//
Old 15th June 2011
  #14
Lives for gear
 
mikeyrad's Avatar
 

I need to revive this thread!

I will be posting my new studio build layout soon for you slutz to rip apart

So my question is, i have about a 6' 10" ceiling and i want to put a cloud above my drum riser.

Would it benefit me to do a 4" cloud with a 4" gap or 2" cloud with a 2" gap because of my low ceilings?

...also putting a cloud above my mix position (ceiling same height) and i will do a 4" cloud with a 4" gap

...also drum riser will be made with 2x4's sitting on 5 spare tires, for decoupling purposes!(got that trick from a guy on here)

thanks for your help!
Old 15th June 2011
  #15
Lives for gear
 
John Suitcase's Avatar
 

From a playability perspective, the 2" cloud might be better, though thicker is better for bass, as stated. But, if you have a 6" riser on tires (maybe another 8"?)that's 14" plus the 4" of the thinner cloud, leaves 5'4" for the drums and mics. That seems awful low to me, can you play in that space? There will be almost no room for overheads, though you could use a M/S setup out front, instead.

Unless I'm misunderstanding your riser plan, it seems like you won't have much room for any cloud!

You might skip the riser, unless you have a really good reason to isolate from the floor. Keep in mind that the riser may resonate, which can be good, or not.
Old 15th June 2011
  #16
Lives for gear
 
ritelec's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeyrad View Post
...also drum riser will be made with 2x4's sitting on 5 spare tires, for decoupling purposes!(got that trick from a guy on here)
How are you planning to stop the drums from rolling away???
Old 15th June 2011
  #17
Lives for gear
 
mikeyrad's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Suitcase View Post
From a playability perspective, the 2" cloud might be better, though thicker is better for bass, as stated. But, if you have a 6" riser on tires (maybe another 8"?)that's 14" plus the 4" of the thinner cloud, leaves 5'4" for the drums and mics. That seems awful low to me, can you play in that space? There will be almost no room for overheads, though you could use a M/S setup out front, instead.

Unless I'm misunderstanding your riser plan, it seems like you won't have much room for any cloud!

You might skip the riser, unless you have a really good reason to isolate from the floor. Keep in mind that the riser may resonate, which can be good, or not.
John, I will have to get an exact measurement and get back to you, I see your point.

Ritelec, the tires will lay flat and setup like 5 on a dice, or x shape I guess too
Old 15th June 2011
  #18
Lives for gear
 
ritelec's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeyrad View Post
Ritelec, the tires will lay flat and setup like 5 on a dice, or x shape I guess too
I know what you were planning. Just playing Mike.

2x4 + sheathing + tire depth to the all ready lower ceiling with cloud (8"dwn)???


What exactly do you expect to achieve with this form of "decoupling" or "decoupling" in the first place???


Just a thought, put them on the floor.
Old 15th June 2011
  #19
Lives for gear
 
mikeyrad's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ritelec View Post
I know what you were planning. Just playing Mike.

2x4 + sheathing + tire depth to the all ready lower ceiling with cloud (8"dwn)???


What exactly to you expect to achieve with this form of "decoupling" or "decoupling" in the first place???


Just a thought, put them on the floor.
Thanks for helping me think abou this a little more. I guess Ill only be tracking scratch tracks of other instruments while I'm recording drums so a drum riser really won't be needed. I just wanted decoupling from the drums so no unwanted rumble would get into any other instruments being recorded.

Now I can have some extra height to maybe fit a 4' cloud 4" down, that's would be awesome to e able to fit that. I got some measuring to do!
Old 15th June 2011
  #20
Lives for gear
Drum risers don't always solve problems, they probably create more problems than their worth quite often.

Build the cloud first & then see if you have any problems. You can always just decouple the bass drum itself via some foam & be done with it.
Old 15th June 2011
  #21
Gear Guru
 
Glenn Kuras's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by bensaddiction View Post
Drum risers don't always solve problems, they probably create more problems than their worth quite often.

Build the cloud first & then see if you have any problems. You can always just decouple the bass drum itself via some foam & be done with it.
Agreed!
Old 16th June 2011
  #22
Lives for gear
 
ritelec's Avatar
 

Drummer here by the way, All miked up and had been doing some recording for myself.

Picked up Superior Drummer last year. Long story short, It's AMAZING. I still play, but the "sound of" SD, the ability to manipulate instead of doing retakes, different sets, bleed control........I haven't been recording live drums lately.
And probably won't, unless maybe I open my room up to other bands with a drummer thats itching to play (and I'd still probably talk him into using the SD).

Just giving you something else to think about.
Old 16th June 2011
  #23
Lives for gear
 
JulianFernandez's Avatar
 

Drumagog is an awful thing for drummers who care about improving...
Work on your sound by refining your technique... If you can´t get your kit to sound good with a couple of bass traps (or even mattresses!), then you have some pad work to do!

I rather have an awful sounding take (but all played by me) than using some program to change every hit I played with some prerecorded event... tutt
Old 4th September 2011
  #24
Gear Maniac
 

Glen, my ceiling is 7'6",(yao ming's height.. LOL) should i go with 4" thick ceiling + 4" drop or 2" thick ceiling + 2" drop? this would be used in a live room and a vocal room.
Old 4th September 2011
  #25
Lives for gear
 
ritelec's Avatar
 

Not Glen but taking a poke at it.

4" thick is better than 2".

4" space is better than 2".


edit. I rescind that thought. Depending to what you want to hear from your kit..........2" could be nice.......

Glen???


-rich
Old 4th September 2011
  #26
Lives for gear
 
mikeyrad's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ritelec View Post
Not Glen but taking a poke at it.

4" thick is better than 2".

4" space is better than 2".
+1 my ceiling are 7ft and I'm goin with a 4" thick cloud 4" from ceiling.

The thicker the better, just keep the drop the same as the thickness.
Old 4th September 2011
  #27
Lives for gear
 
G. E.'s Avatar
 

Acoustic cloud

Quote:
Originally Posted by coreybox View Post
... I want to add a ceiling cloud over the primarily recording areas (drums mainly, also some guitar and vocals). I'm not sure how large to make the clouds. ...
I've put up a 2m x 2m x 10cm [~6' 7" x 6' 7" x 4"] "cloud" 15cm [~6"] beneath the ceiling just above the drumset (in a project studio at a friend's house) with good results.
Attached Thumbnails
help with ceiling cloud over drums; how thick?-asc_2093.jpg  
Old 4th September 2011
  #28
Lives for gear
 
boggy's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by G. E. View Post
I've put up a 2m x 2m x 10cm [~6' 7" x 6' 7" x 4"] "cloud" 15cm [~6"] beneath the ceiling just above the drumset (in a project studio at a friend's house) with good results.
Do you use foam for this cloud?
Old 5th September 2011
  #29
Lives for gear
 
G. E.'s Avatar
 

Cloud details

Quote:
Originally Posted by boggy View Post
Do you use foam for this cloud?
No, it's a kind of non-woven polyester fabric. We did a quick sound sample using overheads -- unfortunately the two mics were not level-matched and positioned correctly to give a good stereo image, so I separated left and right in two MP3s (no other audio processing involved).
Attached Files

overhead_L.mp3 (963.4 KB, 4307 views)

overhead_R.mp3 (963.4 KB, 4263 views)

Old 5th September 2011
  #30
Gear Guru
Isobond

G.E. Nice. Is that Caruso Isobond?
If a decent cloud, i.e. 4+4 minimum, is not possible there is another solution.
Use PZM mics, or Omnis attached to the ceiling. DPA 4061's are great for this.
No phasing, great LF response. Razor sharp imaging. You can remove the HF boosting grilles from the DPA's for a flatter response.
PZM's/DPA's can be placed behind the drummer if close to a hard wall. Again, great LF and solid imaging.
DD
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Forum Jump
Forum Jump