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Can Bass Traps Lean Against the Wall (Straddling)? Dynamics Plugins
Old 21st December 2010
  #1
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hereticskeptic's Avatar
Can Bass Traps Lean Against the Wall (Straddling)?

Wondering if this is cool, as opposed to placing them on stands or mounting them. I've seen images where Ethan did this, but wasn't sure if that was simply for test reasons, and is not a preferred method. I just figure it will be a lot easier to lean the traps against the wall, straddling, if this is considered cool. Ethan? Glenn? DanDan? Andre? Anyone?
Old 21st December 2010
  #2
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hereticskeptic's Avatar
Also, for the panels that folks are hanging, are you doing this by attaching wire to the back of the traps, or via another method? If it is by wire, can someone detail how this is done? If another method, can you explain that method? I was thinking of going with Tri Traps from GIK (for a few reasons), but would rather save the money, build them myself and be able to save up for other things I need.

That being said, I may still be going with the Tri Traps, in order to please the lady of the house. Appreciate your feedback good people.
Old 21st December 2010
  #3
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Glenn Kuras's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by hereticskeptic View Post
Wondering if this is cool, as opposed to placing them on stands or mounting them. I've seen images where Ethan did this, but wasn't sure if that was simply for test reasons, and is not a preferred method. I just figure it will be a lot easier to lean the traps against the wall, straddling, if this is considered cool. Ethan? Glenn? DanDan? Andre? Anyone?
Actually if you have the floor space I like doing it that way. When you need to move the panel or use it for something else you just pick it up and go.heh

Quote:
Also, for the panels that folks are hanging, are you doing this by attaching wire to the back of the traps, or via another method? If it is by wire, can someone detail how this is done? If another method, can you explain that method? I was thinking of going with Tri Traps from GIK (for a few reasons), but would rather save the money, build them myself and be able to save up for other things I need.

That being said, I may still be going with the Tri Traps, in order to please the lady of the house. Appreciate your feedback good people.
See the following LAME video I did.

Old 22nd December 2010
  #4
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Thx Glenn. Nice! I can just lean them for the corners? Sounds great! No need to mount or anything sounds like a plan. I got he ooks hooks that are a shield, and then you're supposed to hang them using picture wire, either the way you did it, or with a wire stretching completely across the width or length of the wood backing. What type of wire will work for this, and how on earth do you get those eye bolts to stay in place on the wood backing?

I watched a youtube video of a woman who skipped that step (attaching the eye bolts), and wouldn't want to do it without knowing they were securely attached. I also saw a youtube video of a woman who used a different type of hanger (in place of the eye bolts), which was attached using screws. Anyone aware of such a thing?

Another question I have is whether wood backing is needed on ever panel make. I've read someone state that you need backing if you're placing the panels completely against the wall, and don't need it if you're spacing. Would the panels not be somewhat flimsy without the backing (using OC 703)? Is it smarter to just always add backing and hang/place panels flush against the wall? If this is done, would it be wise to use thicker pieces of plywood in order to create more space between the wall and the fiberglass? For example, would it be smart to add a 6" thick wood backing to a 6" panel that will sit flush up against the rear wall in a small room, as opposed to trying to hang it with spacing between the wall and panel?

I really, really appreciate any insight into these concerns of mine. These are the final pieces of info I need to devise my plan. I am going to pick up the OC 703 today.
Old 23rd December 2010
  #5
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Glenn Kuras's Avatar
I would use the heaviest wire you can and still be able to twist it. For the eye bolts you should be able to just screw them in.

As far as backing, you don't want backing when spacing or straddling panels. If you don't have spacing them the backing is fine. Not really a "construction" guy but a wood frame should be fine if built well.
Old 23rd December 2010
  #6
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How come the GIK acoustics 4 inch bass traps are so cheap in US dollars at $69.99? How is your company even making money on them? Is that with Guilford fabric? But even if you use low end panel fabrics, I have no idea how you can sell them so cheap. Do you guys all live "minimalist" lives or something? Because there is no other company that can even compete with these prices. Or do you get free materials?

If it takes a couple hours to professionally make and finish a panel hand built and provide the proper finish for the rear air-offset like I do, and sanding the corners and edges of the wood, (unless you have an automated process) then are you guys using Asia for low labor costs? I simply don't understand. Not to mention the stapling of fabric which has to be tight and perfect - it cannot be a rushed job. The stapling cannot show any lines - it must require a specific procedure so that there are no visible lines.

When I build only 2 inch panels, I have to charge at least 67 dollars CAD and for super densitites like 6pcf and 8pcf densities I muct charge more, and 3 inch I do for about in the mid 70s (more pricy for super density) and 4 inch in the mid 80s (more pricy for super density). I do them hand built. And yet GIK is making 4 inch bass traps for $69.99 USD (which comes to about $73 CAD). You cannot find these prices among any other company in North America. Even "Real Traps" are outrageously priced.

In Canada, my prices are considered a very good price because panels in the music store here usually start at about $86 for 2 inch. Do you guys get free materials or something?

I use rockboard 40, rockboard 60, and rockboard 80 depending on the density request (as some people prefer various different sounding character to their rooms).

When I build 3 inch I have to raise it to around $75 roughly (prices fluctuate in materials so I am only giving approximates). This is still below the price of the 2 inch panels bought at the store. But its tough because the price of rockboard is not consistently relative across all thicknesses and densities. Prices in Canada are all disproportioned in this respect and all out of whack at various industrial insulation suppliers. Some suppliers are better than others.

But I formulate my pricing so I make at least $20 per hour. Anything below that rate is unacceptable in an industry in which you are not working full time. (Unless you guys make panels full time).

But with that said how are you guys able to charge that low for 4 inch bass traps? Are you automating the process? An assembly line? Because if this is based on workers hand-building the panels like I do, then how are such workers even affording to eat? LOL.
Old 23rd December 2010
  #7
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Glenn Kuras's Avatar
Quote:
How come the GIK acoustics 4 inch bass traps are so cheap in US dollars at $69.99? How is your company even making money on them? Is that with Guilford fabric? But even if you use low end panel fabrics, I have no idea how you can sell them so cheap. Do you guys all live "minimalist" lives or something? Because there is no other company that can even compete with these prices. Or do you get free materials?
-Machinery
-Quantity
-Production

heh

Honestly we pay hourly rates that are well above US standards. We just make sure we maximize production time by hiring the the right people and training them correctly. It is made up from the things I listed above.

Not to brag, but I think the new Q7D is even a better value. Considering it would take someone a few days to build one of them and it still would not be as good. My running joke is you can tie them to your car, drag them to the studio and they still would be in one piece.
Old 23rd December 2010
  #8
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hereticskeptic's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glenn Kuras View Post
I would use the heaviest wire you can and still be able to twist it. For the eye bolts you should be able to just screw them in.

As far as backing, you don't want backing when spacing or straddling panels. If you don't have spacing them the backing is fine. Not really a "construction" guy but a wood frame should be fine if built well.
Aw damn. I went and bought enough wood for backing of each panel. Not very expensive, but now I'm wondering what's the best approach if I were to add backing to each one. Also, How can you hang the panels without backing? I mean, how would one attach eye bolts and such to just the fiberglass alone? Seems like it wouldn't hold whatsoever.

I've only seen tutorials of traps/panels being made where backing was used. Am I missing something? Should I just add backing to each one and then hang it so they are all flush against the wall? Also, I'm pretty sure I've been told repeatedly that when straddling the corners, you should add backing. I really don't want to do all of this wrong, and can still return all of the materials purchased, outside of the wood, as I jus bought it all last night.
Old 23rd December 2010
  #9
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Glenn Kuras View Post
-Machinery
-Quantity
-Production

heh

Honestly we pay hourly rates that are well above US standards. We just make sure we maximize production time by hiring the the right people and training them correctly. It is made up from the things I listed above.

Not to brag, but I think the new Q7D is even a better value. Considering it would take someone a few days to build one of them and it still would not be as good. My running joke is you can tie them to your car, drag them to the studio and they still would be in one piece.
But your 6" plus air gap Monster trap is $118.99. This is a strange leap in price for a mere 2" difference. Which leaves me even more perplexed here. As your 4 inch is $69.99 are they not?

Because you see, I offer 5 inches plus 1.5 inch air gap at about a hundred dollars. So do you see what I am getting at in an observance of what appears to be a disproportionate pricing system based on materials? Or is there a different density material in the monster one? What are you using in there. 705? Rockboard 80.

But one fact I do know for sure is that none of the above systems tame much bass below 80Hz at all. So at the end of the day, to absorb any frequency properly, one must apply the quarter of the wavelength industry standard divided 2 for angle of incidence. Therefore, to all reading this, in order to properly absorb any thing at around 100 hz, you would need to have a 17 inch trap. And in order to properly absorb 50 Hz you would need to have a 34inch deep bass trap.

Because 80Hz is a very popular spike for kick drums and we therefore have so many producers mis-judging the level of the kick drum for mixes - constantly going back to the mix after its not right sounding elsewhere. This is the most common complaint in the industry - for obvious reasons - a very difficult frequency to control, and even more difficult of a problem is producers and engineers who prefer a kick drum spike at even lower frequencies. Sub bass is very hard to get perfect and this is why rooms must have low bass solutions.

Movie theatres definetly have veavy duty solutions of immense thicknesses behind the screen to give the audience an accurate listening experience - accurate to what the original sound designer and mixers intended to be heard. But in a studio or home threatre, a 6 inch trap, even if placed in a corner with the triangle air gap is not an effective solution. Even an 8-inch trap is insufficient.

So how exactly is your company compensating for these severe bass problems at 80 hz and below?
Old 23rd December 2010
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hereticskeptic View Post
Aw damn. I went and bought enough wood for backing of each panel. Not very expensive, but now I'm wondering what's the best approach if I were to add backing to each one. Also, How can you hang the panels without backing? I mean, how would one attach eye bolts and such to just the fiberglass alone? Seems like it wouldn't hold whatsoever.

I've only seen tutorials of traps/panels being made where backing was used. Am I missing something? Should I just add backing to each one and then hang it so they are all flush against the wall? Also, I'm pretty sure I've been told repeatedly that when straddling the corners, you should add backing. I really don't want to do all of this wrong, and can still return all of the materials purchased, outside of the wood, as I jus bought it all last night.
Dude, you gotta add a mineral sheet at the back so fibres dont escape into the air!
Old 23rd December 2010
  #11
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hereticskeptic's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcousticsWizard View Post
Dude, you gotta add a mineral sheet at the back so fibres dont escape into the air!
I haven't heard or seen anything about this until now. I think some are adding a sheet of fabric to the front of the backing, so that there is fabric covering the back of the fiberglass. Others are just leaving the back open, and I suppose assuming that no fibers will escape with the panels already been attached to the walls and not being moved.
Old 24th December 2010
  #12
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Here is what I mean as far as a mineral fibre backing. .

http://s904.photobucket.com/albums/a...t=DSC00392.jpg

It also acts similar to FRK with acoustical properties, but you have to staple it accurately around the back on the inner part of the frame. And you have to develop a system to hold the fiberboard firm and not moving loose at all.
Old 27th December 2010
  #13
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Anyways, can GIK please advise on which of their products, if any, can provide solutions for low bass under 100hz? And if not, what exactly is GIK doing to address this issue?
Old 28th December 2010
  #14
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Glenn Kuras's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcousticsWizard View Post
Anyways, can GIK please advise on which of their products, if any, can provide solutions for low bass under 100hz? And if not, what exactly is GIK doing to address this issue?
You can see your lab testing from Riverbank at the following page. It shows a lot of absorption below 80hz
GIK Acoustic Panels are tested and certified.
Old 2nd January 2011
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glenn Kuras View Post
You can see your lab testing from Riverbank at the following page. It shows a lot of absorption below 80hz
Sir, what you are suggesting contradicts the actual science. I share the science at the link below. Therefore, any of these types of traps you offer which do not have a barium-loaded membrane will not effectively absorb below 80 Hz.

Please see the following scientific data from Primacoustic - one of the world's most reputable acoustics companies. They specifically lay it out in layman's terms, which shows that the solutions offered by many companies who state they make effective low bass absorbers are simply not to be trusted.

Are you aware of how long wave "lengths" really measure? Again, for your suggestions to work, you would either need to place a barium-loaded membrane vinyl system at the back your bass traps ... OR you would need to manufacture 17 inch traps to effectively absorb down to 100hz and 34 inch thick traps to effectively absorb down to 50hz. Otherwise you would be severely misleading your customers. Here is the article and I suggest everybody into this field to study this very carefully to know the importance of the membrane technology essential for any serious studio which has limited space to put treatment. Primacoustic is the most reputable mainstream acoustics company and I recommend their product to many people.

Here is the link to the science behind their membrane system.

Primacoustic Acoustic Solutions
Old 2nd January 2011
  #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AcousticsWizard View Post
Sir, what you are suggesting contradicts the actual science. I share the science at the link below. Therefore, any of these types of traps you offer which do not have a barium-loaded membrane will not effectively absorb below 80 Hz.

Please see the following scientific data from Primacoustic - one of the world's most reputable acoustics companies. They specifically lay it out in layman's terms, which shows that the solutions offered by many companies who state they make effective low bass absorbers are simply not to be trusted.

Are you aware of how long wave "lengths" really measure? Again, for your suggestions to work, you would either need to place a barium-loaded membrane vinyl system at the back your bass traps ... OR you would need to manufacture 17 inch traps to effectively absorb down to 100hz and 34 inch thick traps to effectively absorb down to 50hz. Otherwise you would be severely misleading your customers. Here is the article and I suggest everybody into this field to study this very carefully to know the importance of the membrane technology essential for any serious studio which has limited space to put treatment. Primacoustic is the most reputable mainstream acoustics company and I recommend their product to many people.

Here is the link to the science behind their membrane system.

Primacoustic Acoustic Solutions
Gotta say that sounds a lot like marketing to me. Also:



(from this thread pressure trap behind velocity trap)
Old 3rd January 2011
  #17
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Glenn Kuras's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by explorer View Post
Gotta say that sounds a lot like marketing to me. Also:



(from this thread pressure trap behind velocity trap)
Yep. heh

We have lab testing with thousands of rooms tested showing quite a bit of abortion below 100hz.
Old 3rd January 2011
  #18
Gear Addict
 

off point

With all due respect to a person with seemingly honest questions, AcousticsWizzard- you should start your own thread to ask questions rather than calling out to Glenn in another's thread. Also, I highly suggest you disclose your business motives for asking such questions by adding your business name to your signature.

I am personally a frequent user of mass-loaded membrane and have no issue with you touting the benefits of applications like the Primacoustics MaxTraps. However, Ethan and Glenn are 100% correct that control below 80Hz (actually below 50Hz) can be acheived with even 4"- 6#pcf providing you deal with enough surface area in the corner junctions (both trihedral and dihedral). Note: certain rooms with poor room dimensions will not comply.

Expanding further on control ~50Hz: on the extravagent side- the RPG/VPR Plate traps work exceptionally well. On the pedestrian side- 3' of lo-density "house" insulation does as well. It's all about location and what issue you're looking to address.

I've used all of the above to solid result.

Your pointed comments remind me of the old expression, "if you only have a hammer, everything looks like a nail".
Old 3rd January 2011
  #19
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Glenn Kuras's Avatar
Quote:
Your pointed comments remind me of the old expression, "if you only have a hammer, everything looks like a nail".
Mine is "If you're a hammer then you're a tool".

nuff said.
Old 4th January 2011
  #20
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by explorer View Post
Gotta say that sounds a lot like marketing to me. Also:

Excuse me, I was not referring to the real traps system. I was referring to the GIK models discussed in the video. So why even post a graph of a different product unfair to the discussion? WHERE did i refer to real traps?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffrey Hedback View Post

I am personally a frequent user of mass-loaded membrane and have no issue with you touting the benefits of applications like the Primacoustics MaxTraps. However, Ethan and Glenn are 100% correct that control below 80Hz (actually below 50Hz) can be acheived with even 4"- 6#pcf providing you deal with enough surface area in the corner junctions (both trihedral and dihedral).
I have good reason to disbelieve that. Do you even realize how large such frequencies even are? 4-6inches will not do anything, you need 17inches thick to effectively absorb 100hz, and double that to 34inches effectively absorb 50hz. Therefore, since most people do not have that kind of real estate to allow for such depths, the membrane system must be introduced as an alternative - as you already grant benefits to. But you claim effectiveness of even 4 inch thicknesses - while clearly understanding the benefits of the membrane. Then why does Primacoustic and othe rhigh end trap manufactuers not just increase the fibre thickness by a couple inches instead of going through the trouble of engineering a membrane system into the schematic of the maxtrap? Oh wait! I have the answer - it is because it would not be nearly as effective as the membrane after a gap after their 3 inch OC705. Please look at the frequency charts on their data pages regarding what range is absorbed by the fibre (and not) and what range is "absorbed" (actually "converted" into heat by the kinetic process of the membrane). You sir cannot have it both ways.

Quote:
On the pedestrian side- 3' of lo-density "house" insulation does as well.
That comment alone gives me no reason to trust you as reputable in your claims. Low density batt from home depot does practically nill on such frequencies. You would be laughed out of any intelligible acoustics discussion if you brought up home depot batting in the conversation.

Quote:
I've used all of the above to solid result.
You would like to believe.
Old 4th January 2011
  #21
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Glenn Kuras View Post
Mine is "If you're a hammer then you're a tool".

nuff said.
Mine is: "dont stick your tool into anything that has a hole". I rest my case.
Old 4th January 2011
  #22
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The Beatsmith's Avatar
 

what the hell just happened
Old 4th January 2011
  #23
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Glenn Kuras's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by hereticskeptic View Post
Aw damn. I went and bought enough wood for backing of each panel. Not very expensive, but now I'm wondering what's the best approach if I were to add backing to each one. Also, How can you hang the panels without backing? I mean, how would one attach eye bolts and such to just the fiberglass alone? Seems like it wouldn't hold whatsoever.

I've only seen tutorials of traps/panels being made where backing was used. Am I missing something? Should I just add backing to each one and then hang it so they are all flush against the wall? Also, I'm pretty sure I've been told repeatedly that when straddling the corners, you should add backing. I really don't want to do all of this wrong, and can still return all of the materials purchased, outside of the wood, as I jus bought it all last night.
Sorry man this thread got a bit derailed by a competitor. Let me see if I can get it back on track.

For the backing of panels you want to leave it uncovered or cover it with fabric. If the panel is made with a wood frame then use eye hooks in the framing for hanging.
Does that clear it up for you?
Old 12th January 2011
  #24
Gear Head
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcousticsWizard View Post

That comment alone gives me no reason to trust you as reputable in your claims. Low density batt from home depot does practically nill on such frequencies. You would be laughed out of any intelligible acoustics discussion if you brought up home depot batting in the conversation.

You would like to believe.
Hmm is it just me, or do I remember reading on more than one thread that ROXUL Safe n Sound BATT from HOME DEPOT here in Canada had BETTER results with low frequencies?

and I quote Avare on one of those threads;

Quote:
It is actually better for bass traps than 703.

It is one of the public secrets in my part of the world for sound absorption. The last time I checked prices in detail, 3" 703 was $3.00/ft^2 and Safe n Sound was $0.28/ft^2.

Great stuff doing research before buying.


Are you in Canada? I was writing on another forum with a person from Texas and he could not find Safe n Sound there.

Soft yet absorbent,
Andre
Sorry for bringing this back to the table but since I am about to build my own bass traps in the next few days and that I planned on building my corner traps using a 6inch fram with Roxul Safe N Sound, I would like to know more..
Old 13th January 2011
  #25
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Glenn Kuras's Avatar
6" of that stuff will work well. You would need to lab test it to see if it really was better then 6" of 703.
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