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Impossibly small, empty room Condenser Microphones
Old 6th August 2010
  #1
Gear nut
 

Thread Starter
Impossibly small, empty room

So, I have an empty third bedroom in my smallish LA apt. I'm looking to set up a small editing/mix room in there and while the room is empty I want to get some acoustical treatment going.

Just want to see what you guys think.

The room is 8'6" X 11'2" with standard 8' ceilings.

I know... not ideal. My lease is up in Feb, I might stay, might not, so I don't want to get too crazy.

I have some treatment available to me:

8 or 10 2' X 2' X 1 1/2" Fiberglass panels. (I think they're these...)

I also have access to 3 auralex room kits brand new in the boxes, but I need to inspect them and see which packages they are and what's in them....


I plan on using the room for doing audio for webisodes and short films, and doing some music composing and overdubs.

So, where should I start?
Old 6th August 2010
  #2
SAC
Registered User
 

Dorothy: Now which way do we go?

Scarecrow: Pardon me, this way is a very nice way.
...
Scarecrow: [points other way] It's pleasant down that way, too.
...
Scarecrow: [points both ways] Of course, some people do go both ways.

Choices?

You can, as most will, simply assume the problems and rush to fix them based on general pattern recognition (meaning your room is essentially identical with mine, knowing only that it is a small polygon heh ) - which may address some issues and aggravate others;

or, you can measure and verify/identify exactly that with which you are dealing, and then proceed to specifically address each issue.

I prefer the latter option, but its your choice.

In any case, the general scenario is going to involve bass trapping to mitigate modal behavior (hopefully employing frequency selective traps that trap LF and leave the mid/high specular energy in the room...surgical use of broadband panel absorption to control early reflections in the ISD (initial signal delay) gap (with a symmetrical response being a fundamental concern), and then diffusion to create a more diffuse well behaved (meaning no excessively hot reflections) laterally oriented decaying soundfield thereafter.

The basic measurements can be made using a freeware program such as RoomEQWizard in order to generate a basic frequency response and waterfall to identify basic room mode issues, and an impulse and ETC response in order to identify the intensity, time and orientation characteristics of each specular reflection - as well as to help provide ongoing information regarding the development of the diffuse soundfield if you choose to attempt that route.

The differences in the two approaches is generally that if you go with the former generic solution, you end up using allot of absorption and end up with a dead room as there is no means by which to intelligently distinguish constructive from destructive energy and to adjust the behavior aside from eliminating all reflections.
Old 6th August 2010
  #3
Gear nut
 

Thread Starter
Thanks for the reply. Just looking for some starting point. Like, which way should I orientate the desk? How close to the wall should I get? Can I start taking measurements with a Studio Projects c4 w/ the omni cap?
Old 6th August 2010
  #4
Lives for gear
 

Old 6th August 2010
  #5
Gear Guru
 
Glenn Kuras's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagineaudio View Post
Thanks for the reply. Just looking for some starting point. Like, which way should I orientate the desk? How close to the wall should I get? Can I start taking measurements with a Studio Projects c4 w/ the omni cap?
For measuring the room see the following free program
Room EQ Wizard - REW Home Page

For your desk start by facing the short wall and sit back around 38% of the room length. You may find that moving forward or back will help the response. At that point you will want to trap as many corners as possible with no less then 4" panels made from mineral wool or rigid fiber glass. Hit the early reflection points with thinner panels (What Are Early Reflection Points. SPOTLIGHT:Bob Ebeling - Revolution Studio) and thick panels and diffusion for the back wall. See the following as a guide for placement.
GIK Acoustics: Room Setup

Quote:
Dorothy: Now which way do we go?

Scarecrow: Pardon me, this way is a very nice way.
...
Scarecrow: [points other way] It's pleasant down that way, too.
...
Scarecrow: [points both ways] Of course, some people do go both ways.

Does the SA in SAC stand for Smart A$$?


Old 6th August 2010
  #6
SAC
Registered User
 

The Wizard of Oz and Monty Python quotes TOO OFTEN reflect exactly the situations we often encounter ...and I sorta like them with my wry humor... (I love the Marx Brother too, but few would catch their reference...)

As to the letters' significance...I was thinking either that or 'sage advice'...hard to tell, isn't it????? hehhehhehhehhehheh Glenn, you have to stop feeding me straight lines! ...how could I resist an opening like that!!heh

...oh gesesh!!!, gotta go... its getting deep.... and this chair is not tall enough...

Have fun!

Old 6th August 2010
  #7
Gear Guru
 
Ethan Winer's Avatar
 

Lightbulb

Quote:
Originally Posted by SAC View Post
The Wizard of Oz and Monty Python quotes TOO OFTEN reflect exactly the situations we often encounter
At least once a day something in my real life parallels an episode of The Simpsons. I know so many Homer quotes it drives my wife crazy. heh

Mmmmm, Homer quotes....

--Ethan

________________
The Acoustic Treatment Experts
Old 6th August 2010
  #8
Gear Guru
 
Glenn Kuras's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethan Winer View Post
At least once a day something in my real life parallels an episode of The Simpsons. I know so many Homer quotes it drives my wife crazy. heh

Mmmmm, Homer quotes....

[/url]
It is the show The Office I seem to run into.

"That's what she said"
Old 6th August 2010
  #9
Gear Guru
 
DanDan's Avatar
Temporary

Family guy here, Lois is hot....

imagine
seems like you would want temporary treatments, ones you can take with you or easily sell.
If you glue a CD to the back of foam, it can them be hung on the wall on a thumbtack.
The corner products from Real GIK and others are self standing and take up minimal space, with maximum effect, in the corners. Very advisable in your tiny room.
GIK have folding self standing hinged panels.
The other single panel traps can be laid against the walls or attached with minimal holes in the sheetrock. A cloud is worth the hassle.
I am sure you get my drift.
The basics of Room Treatment are well written at both GIK and RealTraps.
studiotips - tips on studio design, acoustics, and wiring is worth a look too.
DD
Old 6th August 2010
  #10
Gear nut
 

Thread Starter
^^^ See, knew there was a reason to start this thread. Gluing CD's to use for hanging is genius!

My original plan was to glue the acoustic treatments to luan and hang those with a hook that suspends them so they aren't in direct contact with the wall.

As for corner trapping (and after I make some measurements!):

Do I need to fill the whole corners or, for instance, can I take 2 2-inch fiberglass panels and glue them together and catty-corner them.

Like I said above, I have 2'X2' panels already so I would need 8 of them for each corner (2 layers of 4, ceiling to floor)

On my way to check out the software Glenn linked to above.
Old 10th August 2010
  #11
Gear nut
 

Thread Starter
bumping. measured the room with the link glenn posted above, but not sure what I do with it from here.
Attached Thumbnails
Impossibly small, empty room-graph.jpg  
Old 10th August 2010
  #12
Gear Guru
 
DanDan's Avatar
Basics

imagine, you find yourself in a very common position.
I recommend that you read the articles at RealTraps and GIK.
Also StudioTips. Most people come up with exactly the same questions at the start of exploring acoustics. These articles were written with that in mind.
Similarly, if you wish to get a head start with Measurement I wrote a Room Analysis Primer. It's a Sticky at the top of this forum.
The CD idea is cute, not mine though. Plywood or cardboard can get the job done also. With Bass traps the answer is always more, no matter what the question is heh
DD
Old 10th August 2010
  #13
Gear nut
 

Thread Starter
Yeah, I started getting into acoustics and room measurements about 4 years ago, but I've been bouncing around from place to place since then and haven't had a room I needed to treat since.

I remember bits and pieces of it, and I grasp the basics, I'm just not sure about how to apply any of it.

Edited to add: Imma check out your sticky.
Old 10th August 2010
  #14
Gear Guru
 
DanDan's Avatar
Understanding

imagine, it is not mandatory that you get fully up to speed on the theories.
Most small rooms require exactly the same treatment.
Why not just go with that?

Quote:
For your desk start by facing the short wall and sit back around 38% of the room length. You may find that moving forward or back will help the response. At that point you will want to trap as many corners as possible with no less then 4" panels made from mineral wool or rigid fiber glass. Hit the early reflection points with thinner panels (What Are Early Reflection Points. SPOTLIGHT:Bob Ebeling - Revolution Studio) and thick panels and diffusion for the back wall. See the following as a guide for placement.
GIK Acoustics: Room Setup
What Glenn said, except maybe your room is a bit small for diffusion.

DD
Old 10th August 2010
  #15
Gear nut
 

Thread Starter
I'll have to upload a sketch of my room, but how do you deal with corner trapping when you have a door that just about butts up to the corner?


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Old 10th August 2010
  #16
Lives for gear
 
Weasel9992's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by imagineaudio View Post
I'll have to upload a sketch of my room, but how do you deal with corner trapping when you have a door that just about butts up to the corner?


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Use a panel on a stand or skip the corner. Not much else you can do.
Old 11th August 2010
  #17
Gear Guru
 
Glenn Kuras's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanDan View Post



What Glenn said, except maybe your room is a bit small for diffusion.

DD
If he does the set up like I said he going to be around 6' from the back wall, which is border line for GOOD diffusion. If anything I would start with thick absorption and use diffusion around that. If the budget is low then I would put it all at absorption/bass trapping.
Old 11th August 2010
  #18
Gear Guru
 
DanDan's Avatar
Cautionery

Borderline indeed, and where is that border?
Probably an unnecessary caution on my part. I was thinking about not having any bounce within the 20mS. However, I see that ISD figure sometimes quoted as 6-30mS LOL. Plus, Lupo did give us a link to an RGP room with a 9-10mS ISD.
I begin to suspect that diffusors or not is often a financial call, followed by a taste call. I further suspect that some diffusor designs are quite friendly towards close, others not, presumably the bigger ones need to be further away.
DD
Old 11th August 2010
  #19
Gear Guru
 
Glenn Kuras's Avatar
Quote:
I begin to suspect that diffusors or not is often a financial call, followed by a taste call. I further suspect that some diffusor designs are quite friendly towards close, others not, presumably the bigger ones need to be further away.
I can agree with all of that. thumbsup I know we are working our butts off so you designers can have quality, usability and freakin low price when it comes to diffusion! lol lol
Old 11th August 2010
  #20
Gear Guru
 
Ethan Winer's Avatar
 

Lightbulb

Quote:
Originally Posted by imagineaudio View Post
how do you deal with corner trapping when you have a door that just about butts up to the corner?
The photo below shows one solution. In this room, one trap is mounted on the door, but with a 3-inch air space to make the trap more effective.

--Ethan

________________
The Acoustic Treatment Experts

Old 11th August 2010
  #21
Gear Guru
 
Glenn Kuras's Avatar
Just make sure the door opens out (most doors open into a room) or you won't be able to open the door.
Old 12th August 2010
  #22
Gear nut
 

Thread Starter
Ethan, that's a similar position to my door, however it opens in to the room, so I don't know if that type of configuration would work. Unfortunately there is a closet door on the same wall that opens the same way, so I'm looking at dealing with 2 similar type of corners.

How are those panels in your picture mounted to the wall to achieve a 3" gap? Is it decoupled with any sort of rubber or....?

I appreciate everybody's responses and have been checking out the DIY threads, and I think I'm going to attempt building the corner traps from mineral wool and a wood frame.

Is there a good thread on here about building a cloud? That's going to be a bit tricky, too, as I have a large ceiling fan mounted in the center of the room.
Old 12th August 2010
  #23
Gear Guru
 
Ethan Winer's Avatar
 

Lightbulb

Quote:
Originally Posted by imagineaudio View Post
How are those panels in your picture mounted to the wall to achieve a 3" gap?
No decoupling is needed for bass traps. This type of mounting is done with post bases, available at most hardware stores. Here's the page on my company's site with the details, and I'm sure it could be made to work with DIY traps too:

RealTraps - Post Base (Rigid) Mounting

--Ethan

________________
The Acoustic Treatment Experts
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