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Very small control room remodel... less absorption ETC
Old 12th February 2010
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Very small control room remodel... less absorption ETC

Hello.

Before we begin, there is to be no arguing in this thread. PLEASE. (This is in reference to name calling...clearly if a theory is wrong, please comment intelligently)

I would like to use ALL available tools to redesign the current layout of my control room.

I have attached a rendering of the room as it stands today.

To this point I have never touched an analysis software program, though I am eager to learn.

This room is up two stories from my live room... so there is no visual contact... that's another subject altogether.

The dimensions of the room are as follows:
(these are very close estimates, I will measure exactly next time I am there... as well as actual size of the closet. And edit this post.)
9' wide
9' long
just over 8' tall

Clearly, this room can be profiled as a small acoustical space. The closeness of room dimensions will provide challenges in correcting room modes, which I am open to correcting using resonator style traps... should they be deemed appropriate. I'm skeptical that I will be able to achieve a good semi-diffuse mix position, but if it can be done in this room...

Current acoustic treatments:

Front wall - floor to ceiling, nearly wall to wall trap. 4" thick 6lb. density rockwool.

Side panels, cloud, back wall - (6) 2' x 4' x 2" OC 703 panels, breathable back... spaced roughly 1" from wall/ceiling

Corner trap - 2' wide, floor to ceiling bass trap. 4" thick rockwool, suspended on a breathable 2" thick frame (total 6" thick) straddling the corner.

Ceiling rear - (2) skyline diffusors (measurements to follow)

Closet - corners are filled with Foam -by - mail's 18" corner chunks. There is a heavy curtain hanging in the doorway to curtail HF reflections from the back wall of the closet.



Gear:

Mac
LOGIC
Soundcraft Ghost
Otari 1" 16 track
Presonus firestudio
Yamaha HS80m
Event 20/20

Currently, The monitors rest a top the hollow desk, on top of Primacoustic's recoil stabilizers, and angled slightly upward using Auralex's mopads. (Roughly 6" in the front, pointing to ear level)

The mixer has been left off to the side, as my tape machine snakes were not long enough to position the mixer in front. We have recently added a few patchbay's to the rack, so as finances allow we will get the wiring to move the mixer.



Time line and other qualifications:

This is where things may get tricky. There are a lot of projects lined up currently for the studio, as well as my own home remodel. I fully intend to devote as much time and money as I can to this venture, but just to warn off the bat, this may be a slow process.

I am rather skilled with wood working, so all treatments will be made by hand, as those already in place have been (with exception of the current diffusors).

There is likely to be a lot of specific terminology being used by contributors. Understand that I understand very little of it, and I will be diligent in asking for explanations of terms... this thread should provide an example of how to use tools and understand them from a very rudimentary starting point.

My hopes are that this thread will be able to provide a glimpse of the process needed to take a room from "absorption everywhere", to that of a well thought out system.

I will post pictures of the process, as well as screen shots from what ever software tools are suggested. If you are wanting current pictures, there is a link in my signature line to "OUR STUDIO" that contains photos of this space as it stood today.


A very sincere thanks to those who may choose to help me realize this goal,

- John
Attached Thumbnails
Very small control room remodel... less absorption ETC-control-room-top.jpg   Very small control room remodel... less absorption ETC-controlroom-door-way.jpg  

Last edited by johndykstra; 16th February 2010 at 05:51 PM.. Reason: clarification
Old 12th February 2010
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Clearly, my first step is to get the mixer to it's rightful position, take accurate room dimension measurements, and get room analysis shots of the room. Details and edits to follow.

Concerning the doorway:

Currently, the bass response of the room is greatly improved by the door remaining open, however, High frequencies suffer due to the reverberation outside the room, and the door in the open position blocks my back wall panel. We have been checking mixes with both scenarios, in an attempt to view the "whole picture". I've been considering building a replacement door, one in which the panels will be replaced with 1" 703, and fabric on both sides. It's my estimation, that the bass will behave as with the door open... taking advantage of the added cubic volume outside the room, while dampening the High freq. mess from coming back in. Thoughts?

Last edited by johndykstra; 12th February 2010 at 07:04 PM.. Reason: doorway question
Old 12th February 2010
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I think your proposal is a tad optimistic, judging from previous threads.

Before you change anything I'd set up REW (or whatever) and get used to
that by running enough tests until you're comfortable with it. Given that
your (really) small room has been given the classic treatment it would be
interesting to see how it currently behaves. For the sake of symmetry (and
reflections) do you have an absorber on the door ?

My first impression is that you won't get very far away from having absorption
just about everywhere. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that you need more
than you already have. Your room is close to the dreaded cube and you're
sitting right in the middle. The cards are stacked heavily against you.

How does the room sound now ? Are you able to do decent work in it ?

Paul P
Old 12th February 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulP View Post
I think your proposal is a tad optimistic

Paul P
Understood.

Thus the "if it can be done here...it can be done anywhere" statement.

I think I may have been editing my last post while you were typing, so see it for questions re: the door.

I think the room sounds pretty darn good as is. We've had some very good projects ranging from bluegrass/country to hip-hop come through thus far, and they have translated quite well to the outside world. I'll post a few examples if the bands will allow it. Our band has only recorded there some time ago, under MUCH different conditions, though our stuff is one of the upcoming sessions that may delay some of the remodel.
Old 12th February 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulP View Post
Your room is close to the dreaded cube and you're
sitting right in the middle. The cards are stacked heavily against you.
In terms of this, my understanding may be off... given that all of the dimensions are closely spaced, there should be a very concentrated room mode. Given that concentration, I may be able to utilize Helmholtz resonators. My current vision is floor to ceiling in the two front corners, as well as all of the dead space in the closet.
Old 12th February 2010
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Holy helmholtz batman!

Just having some fun here. Very slow day at work. Two renderings attached. First is the amount of HH absorbers I can envision without completely disrupting the space, and the second is those boxes superimposed into the room. Clearly, there's no math behind the size of these... again just for fun
Attached Thumbnails
Very small control room remodel... less absorption ETC-hh-alone.jpg   Very small control room remodel... less absorption ETC-hh-place.jpg  
Old 12th February 2010
  #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
Just having some fun here.
Interesting idea. Now let's have some below 500hz frequency response graphs !
Then we can see what frequencies will need attacking (my guess is something
around 70hz) and what size helmholtz resonators will be needed. The problem
with the forumulas is they don't say how much energy will be absorbed by a
given resonator, only what dimensions will target which frequency. So you won't
know if you need 1 or 25. (unless I'm missing something).

Another article on the subject : here .

Paul P
Old 13th February 2010
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
I think the room sounds pretty darn good as is. We've had some very good projects ranging from bluegrass/country to hip-hop come through thus far, and they have translated quite well to the outside world.
I'd hesitate to touch the room at all if it already works pretty well. It would
be a bit of a bummer to go to a lot of trouble and expense, not to mention
spend a lot of time not making music, only to achieve a small improvement.

On the other hand, the more you do the more I'll learn so I won't try too hard
to talk you out of it.

Paul P
Old 13th February 2010
  #9
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Arguing

dyk, I don't agree about not arguing heh

Could you let me have a few more details?
What are the surfaces made of? e.g. Drywall, Concrete, Wood on studs, Wood on concrete, etc.

Even though you have a seemingly disastrous 9x9, 'soft' walls at LF, e.g. Drywall will act as large panel traps, absorbing bass. Strangely I have seen the number 125Hz associated with such panels. One of your problems is 126Hz. Maybe very lucky.

You have quite a bit of treatment, but not all making sense to me. Can you reverse and have that fully treated wall behind you? Is there only one corner trap?
I see no cloud. They always seem to have a wonderful effect on imaging and clarity.

Starting simple. I would drive some sine waves into the room. Try approximately around 63 and 70 Hz and double and triple those. When you hit the mode frequency exactly you will know all about it. Move to the corners listening or measuring level. The enormous levels you will encounter should convince you to treat these corners very aggressively. The enormous nulls you will find around the middle of the room may show you where not to sit.
studiotips - tips on studio design, acoustics, and wiring SuperChunks and Corner Absorbers. FRK on the front. Or buy the biggest best bass traps you can afford.

Skylines at such close dimensions, I dunno, I had some and got rid of them. Didn't like the 'ping'.

You could use measurement software. It may not be very encouraging to see the graphs though so brace yourself. You may be lucky however, and remember to turn on the smoothing to get a sense of the sonic trend. A guilty pleasure perhaps but it will make you feel a lot better than no smoothing. No smoothing is for when you are seeking and destroying some very specifics. Use the frequency response graphs to optimise your speaker and listening positions. Barefoot's Wall Bounce Calculator 2D is very useful. I don't think the 3D is ready yet but why not have height as one of your 2D's

I hope Lupo will join in regarding the other parts of the software who's name shall not pass my lips in case it draws out vampires......heh

DD
Old 13th February 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulP View Post
I'd hesitate to touch the room at all if it already works pretty well.
Paul P
I hear you. I am going to get the mixer up front, and shoot the room with a waterfall and ETC. We'll take it from there. Once the mixer is centered, I think we'll relocate the monitors to mass loaded stands.

So I've read the soffit mount thread over at the John Sayer's forum. Based on the vented design posted there, I came up with this: (see below)

What I would do, is build three separate cabinets for one side:

-A lower super chunk, with the vent stack through the top.

-A speaker assembly, with the vent through the top and bottom, but the rest of the cavity filled with sand.

-And an upper super chunk, again with the vent stack penetrating the bottom.

All of this to make it possible for me to build these in my shop, and move them in modularly. Clearly, before anything happens, I will get an accurate measurement to determine proper angles and depth.

A few questions regarding effectiveness:

Will these "separate from the structure" monoliths provide the same SBIR reduction benefits as a true soffit mount?

Should the top assembly be a super chunk, or do you loose the soffit effect in the process?

My Yamaha monitors (HS80m) have a rear port. Does that automatically disqualify them as a soffit mount candidate?
Attached Thumbnails
Very small control room remodel... less absorption ETC-monitor-soffit.jpg  
Old 13th February 2010
  #11
Gear Guru
Interesting

Soffit mounting seems like a very useful way to go. Soffits, to my understanding need to be solid. Basically a huge solid extension of the front panel of the speaker. I don't think your design achieves that goal, but maybe I am missing out on something. Could you point me to the vented design you referred to plse?
DD
Old 13th February 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanDan View Post
dyk, I don't agree about not arguing heh
please try

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanDan View Post
Could you let me have a few more details?
What are the surfaces made of? e.g. Drywall, Concrete, Wood on studs, Wood on concrete, etc.
All walls are uninsulated paster/lat on wood stud ala 80 year old house.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanDan View Post
Even though you have a seemingly disastrous 9x9, 'soft' walls at LF, e.g. Drywall will act as large panel traps, absorbing bass. Strangely I have seen the number 125Hz associated with such panels. One of your problems is 126Hz. Maybe very lucky.
fingers crossed

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanDan View Post
You have quite a bit of treatment, but not all making sense to me. Can you reverse and have that fully treated wall behind you? Is there only one corner trap?
I see no cloud. They always seem to have a wonderful effect on imaging and clarity.
Reversing my position would put the diagonal wall in front of me, and make the doorway quite obtrusive. We had originally mixed on the wall that the mixer is currently on, but the closet on the right made imaging a mess. The fully treated wall was to lower SBIR (see post above), and absorb as much as I could. Probably overkill and misallocated, but it is what it is. Currently, yes, there is only one corner trap. There is a cloud. It is the 2' x 4' transparent rectangle in front of the two skylines. 2" deep, 1" space.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanDan View Post
Starting simple. I would drive some sine waves into the room. Try approximately around 63 and 70 Hz and double and triple those. When you hit the mode frequency exactly you will know all about it. Move to the corners listening or measuring level. The enormous levels you will encounter should convince you to treat these corners very aggressively. The enormous nulls you will find around the middle of the room may show you where not to sit.
studiotips - tips on studio design, acoustics, and wiring SuperChunks and Corner Absorbers. FRK on the front. Or buy the biggest best bass traps you can afford.
I've experienced the nulls already. At mix position if you sit attentively, all is well. If you lean back in the chair

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanDan View Post
Skylines at such close dimensions, I dunno, I had some and got rid of them. Didn't like the 'ping'.
they actual made a tremendous difference, particularly in flutter

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanDan View Post
You could use measurement software. It may not be very encouraging to see the graphs though so brace yourself. You may be lucky however, and remember to turn on the smoothing to get a sense of the sonic trend. A guilty pleasure perhaps but it will make you feel a lot better than no smoothing. No smoothing is for when you are seeking and destroying some very specifics. Use the frequency response graphs to optimise your speaker and listening positions. Barefoot's Wall Bounce Calculator 2D is very useful. I don't think the 3D is ready yet but why not have height as one of your 2D's
I don't understand the bolded portion, but to the rest

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanDan View Post
I hope Lupo will join in regarding the other parts of the software who's name shall not pass my lips in case it draws out vampires......heh

DD
I hope LUPO will join us as well. I don't mind the vampire either, but I fear I may have eaten too much garlic for him to show.

Thanks Dan,

John
Old 13th February 2010
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanDan View Post
Could you point me to the vented design you referred to plse?
DD
It was in a John Sayer's link you provided in another thread. Essentially the vent is to keep the amp cool.

Sorry, it was Amishsixstringe who actually posted the link:

John Sayers' Recording Studio Design Forum • View topic - Soffit mounting?

Last edited by johndykstra; 13th February 2010 at 09:08 PM.. Reason: found the link
Old 13th February 2010
  #14
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I see

John. That Wall Bounce Calc is worth a look. You may be able to create an SBIR dip at the mix position at a frequency of interest. Take a look at minimum distance also, almost touching the wall. The bolded bit suggests using distance from the ceiling or floor as one of your 2 dimensions rather than the side wall. Vertical placement of your speakers may create an SBIR dip of interest just as well as the side wall. I am not convinced that a mere 4 inches of fibre will have much effect on SBIR. My own test with LF RealTraps behind speakers had no measureable effect. The Soffit of course eliminates SBIR as the speaker is in the boundary. But like it's sister the PZM, the boundary needs to be solid. I would be thinking cement loaded MDF.
DD
Old 13th February 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanDan View Post
The Soffit of course eliminates SBIR as the speaker is in the boundary. But like it's sister the PZM, the boundary needs to be solid. I would be thinking cement loaded MDF.
DD
Understood. However, look into my proposal a bit further. The bottom cabinet would be filled with rockwool, yes, but it is also not your typical super chunk; rather a quite substantial frame filled with a super chunk. THe speaker portion of the "stand" is also quite mass loaded. Imagine the top and bottom plates being 2-4 layers of plywood... perhaps even green-glued together, and the rest of that enclosure would be filled with sand... minus the small roughly 2" deep slit for the vent. Any vibration passed through to the lower, or upper cabinet for that matter, should surely be dampened by the super chunk. THese three cabinets could also be coupled together with solid panels. Sort of "finishing panels" once they are in place. The three separate structures are merely to be able to get them into the room.

It's understood that this not quite a soffit, rather; a pair of floor to ceiling super chunks, some very massive speaker stands that clear up some real estate, as well as possibly providing some properties of a soffit mount system
Old 13th February 2010
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Oh, and what do you make of my door idea in post #2?
Old 14th February 2010
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Soffit failure

Small rooms suck. Take a look at this detail. I drew out the room and marked my 38% point. Attempting to align the soffits with the 60 degree configuration was a joke, so I remade a mock up for a 90 degree model. A good chunk of the inner flange would need to be removed to accommodate the mixer. Who am I kidding, the entire inner portion of the soffit would have to be sliced off.

So, good solid mass-y stands it is. It's good though, as I have learned that the mixer can be placed in front, and an acceptable 90 degree set-up achieved at 38%
Attached Thumbnails
Very small control room remodel... less absorption ETC-failure.jpg  
Old 14th February 2010
  #18
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What to do

I was going to bring up the width/angle thing. Speaker placement width wise can really help diminish some modes. I did assume that there was considerable thought (and effort, nice sketchupping) in the front corner devices. However I am still not fully getting it.
The bottom chunk is a substantial wooden from, filled with fibre or sand?
If it is filled with sand then you have half a soffit. If not you have only the panel extension around the baffle. I am thinking soffit or no soffit, I can't imagine being partially pregnant!
I have considered what may have been a similar plan in the past.
Two chunks with a speaker in the middle. This was planned for the back of my room. Surround speakers. I tested the response of a speaker on a stand, gradually moving towards and right into an existing corner/SuperChunk. Unfortunately the bass boost was not at all soffit-like. The anomalies seemed to get magnified. I suggest you do the same test before doing all that work. Let us know, you may get a different result. My room is concrete/brick. FM and REW excel at this sort of thing.
What I would really love to see is a 32inch SuperChunk in both front corners. FRK on front. Full height Space Couplers in front of that. This is an imaginary proven design. I have not seen FRK on a SSC tested. Nor SpaceCouplers. While both have shown increased LF performance on panels, the SSC application has not been tested. Also FRK behind a Coupler may hinder it's performance. Nevertheless if my wild guessing is correct, this is the ultimate bass trap.
Quickies-
A back ported speaker in a sealed area/box must be a problem.
The door idea sounds good to me.
DD
Old 14th February 2010
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still hope?

Based on my last post, I had given up on this idea....but. My original triangle rendering was based on the listening position being a point, as if the engineer had an infinitely narrow head. You'll see on this rendering, that when tracing the line to the ear, I actually get a bit more room for the "soffit" to extend toward center. A few more caveats I need to measure for: Actual room length, and considering that, is the room length measured from the back wall, or should the open door closet come into play regarding the 38% starting point? Also, I've given up on the idea of using the Yamaha's because of the port, but I've read multiple places that event 20/20's work well for soffit mounting, so I am going to measure those to see if they are any smaller than the Yamahas. Another benefit of the Events, is there is no back port, so I could remove the back plate of the speaker and remount it on the outside of the soffit... thus allowing me to keep the speaker section completely sealed... ventless. You will notice in the newest rendering that I have considered room for more insulation towards the corners (pink), as well as an arbitrary angled wall section(wood).

Dan, my logic regarding the soffit furniture. The speaker section of the three pieces would be the only one encased in sand. It's my understanding, that before anechoic chambers, they would test speakers by burying them in the ground. Consider this "box of sand" a little slice of earth. Does it provide the same isolation as actual ground, or a full soffit? Probably not, but based on the soffit plans I've looked at, I don't know that my proposal is far off. The bottom portion of the soffit, while originally was a box filled solely with rockwool, could easily be modified with a center column of mass, for a better footing, if that makes sense.


I'm going to let these ideas marinate for a day or two, and once I get back out to the studio to get accurate measurements, I'll post a more detailed sketch.
Attached Thumbnails
Very small control room remodel... less absorption ETC-monitor-soffit-2.jpg  
Old 14th February 2010
  #20
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Some points

The 38% thing is just a reasonable starting point. With drywall, calculation and measured responses will be quite different.
I strongly suggest that you try moving your speaker closer and closer until it is actually pretty much in your superchunk. Such a test convinced me that this half and half design will not work.

Quote:
Consider this "box of sand" a little slice of earth. Does it provide the same isolation as actual ground, or a full soffit? Probably not, but based on the soffit plans I've looked at, I don't know that my proposal is far off.
I see. I expect the sand would do a stellar job of damping speaker cab resonances, plus contain any leaks. A soffit however is not an isolation structure. The principle at large here is similar to a loudspeaker with an infinite baffle. A speaker cone moves back and forward. In order to generate sound we need to lose the back radiation. A speaker box does this. However such a box has issues, modifying the speakers movement due to the springiness of the air inside plus cabinet resonance. Now lets fold that box out into an imaginary 'infinite' baffle. Imagine a huge panel (or wall) large enough to prevent the lowest bass frequencies from sneaking forward, we would have the perfect speaker. Not quite, but that is the idea. A soffit is a very large speaker baffle. That is why it is good to pretty much seal the speaker to it and not allow leaks from behind to come forward. Because the speaker is in the boundary, SBIR effects are zero.
There is a large 'free' bass boost which comes with soffit mounting. You will need an electronic shelving filter to compensate for this. Some speakers have it built in. e.g. Mackie 824. As best I can remember the frequency response is extended downwards a lot by the soffit, I am thinking an octave here. Lots to like here. If you chose to go soffit, do go all the way. Two walls of thick heavy MDF. These would be in the front two corners, wide enought to do the angle and speaker width things optimally. This will also help kill flutter and alter your room dimensions usefully IMHO. Lots to like here!
DD
Old 14th February 2010
  #21
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Enjoying the passeq?

Quote:
Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
in an attempt to view the "whole picture". I've been considering building a replacement door, one in which the panels will be replaced with 1" 703, and fabric on both sides. It's my estimation, that the bass will behave as with the door open... taking advantage of the added cubic volume outside the room, while dampening the High freq. mess from coming back in. Thoughts?
Sounds like a good plan! Make it 2" if you can. (symmetrical wrt to the trap on the other side)


Quote:
Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
All walls are uninsulated paster/lat on wood stud ala 80 year old house.
If I read that right, they should be leaky enough to alleviate most of the common bass issues. Is there a big difference between outside and inside in the low end? Do you hear obvious booming in the room now?

The real 38% is somewhere behind the 38% in the cube geometry, thanks to the closet. Substract corner volume and add closet volume if you want to find the true 38% point. Seems your walls are thin enough to make this a moot point though.

Get some measurements! You don't need that much bass trapping if the room is leaky. Imaging will be your primary concern and you can place listening position based on that, (to an extent) disregarding the modal response.


Is it possible to chop up some of the wall next to the closet door, to make a symmetrical opening?

First thing that came to mind: more side and cloud treatment, less in front, symmetrical absorbers on the rear sides(door and corner) and space coupling the closet. Possibly with some diffusion or polys inside the coupled space.
Old 14th February 2010
  #22
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Regarding your 90 degree listening triangle. I know of no one who listens
to music in such a position so I don't see how you could make proper decisions
regarding imaging and soundstage. It seems to me that you're positioning
your monitors more in the hope of acquiring a fancy acoustic treatment than
to create a setup that will translate well to the end user's environment.

Paul P
Old 15th February 2010
  #23
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Thanks all for the input.

For the most part, the ideas of helmholtz resonators, soffit mounted mains, etc... are me bouncing ideas for what may or may not need to happen next. Trying to get questions regarding feasibility started, before I really know what needs to happen.

Who knows, I may do measurements and find nothing needs to be done ... yeah right, but you know what I mean. I'm just kicking around ideas preparing for worst case scenario.

It seems to me that you're positioning
your monitors more in the hope of acquiring a fancy acoustic treatment than
to create a setup that will translate well to the end user's environment.

Paul P


Guilty. I like excuses for wood working projects. However, I've read in multiple places that the 90 degree set-up is legit. Given my mixer, I don't know that I will be able to avoid that. A shelf over the mixer would be far too resonant, and stands behind it would push me too far back into the room.

Is it possible to chop up some of the wall next to the closet door, to make a symmetrical opening?

Lupo


Not my house. My guitarist owns it. I'm guessing no.


Thanks again guys. I don't know that I will do measurements until I can relocate the mixer. I can't relocate the mixer until I spend a ton on balanced tie lines.

We practice on Tuesday, if I can get some extra time, I'll go up there and download REW... just for giggles.


Thanks again guys,

John
Old 15th February 2010
  #24
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Man, your room is really small.

Quote:
Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
Guilty. I like excuses for wood working projects.
Ah, I can relate to this !

Here's a picture of my last project (closeup).

I've mentioned my shop is in boxes. I'm slowly losing my mind...
Gotta build traps. Gotta build diffusors. Arrgh

Paul P
Old 15th February 2010
  #25
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Great looking cabinet, Paul!



>However, I've read in multiple places that the 90 degree set-up is legit.

Then you need to slap multiple persons using a suitably large fish.

Stereo IS equilateral triangle. Your mixes will sound too narrow if you mix at 90', or you'll have to adjust to making mixes that sounds a mile wide to make them sound normal in the rest of the world.


>>Is it possible to chop up some of the wall next to the closet door, to make a symmetrical opening?
>Not my house. My guitarist owns it. I'm guessing no.

Try to convince him otherwise! Seems like a perfect place for adding some ambience.


>>Thanks again guys. I don't know that I will do measurements until I can relocate the mixer. I can't relocate the mixer until I spend a ton on balanced tie lines.

Measure anyway. The low end won't care about the mixer.
Old 15th February 2010
  #26
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Hey guys,

Read this page of the Sayer's soffit mount thread:

John Sayers' Recording Studio Design Forum • View topic - Soffit mounting?

Who's wrong here?
Old 15th February 2010
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulP View Post

Here's a picture of my last project (closeup).

I've mentioned my shop is in boxes. I'm slowly losing my mind...
Gotta build traps. Gotta build diffusors. Arrgh

Paul P
Paul that is gorgeous.
Old 15th February 2010
  #28
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60 degree dilemma

Hey guys. Just trying to design a mix position with the mixer up front. Using the 60 degree formula, I seem to be running into some logistical problems. Given the tight space, Not only would the monitors need to live partially on my mixer (not to mention the meter bridge would need to be removed), but to get even close to the width I need, my head may be too far into the triangle?

Am I going to need to go higher and narrower with the monitors, and angle them down a bit?
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Very small control room remodel... less absorption ETC-triangle.jpg  
Old 15th February 2010
  #29
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johndykstra's Avatar
 

I wish this all made more sense. Here is an attachement from John Sayers regarding the listening triangles. It seems that at 60 degrees you do sit well within the triangle... and based on this graphic, I could actually spread the speakers out a bit?

http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/do...e.php?id=24443
Old 15th February 2010
  #30
Gear Guru
Amazing

Paul, that amp looks stunning. Have you given up on the classic Soffit designs? If you were prepared to build the necessary 'walls' I believe it is the route to the best result.
Do you have to have a desk? I don't use one any more and it frees up the room greatly.
I have even imagined a roll around chair with a tiny shelf for the wireless keyboard/mouse.
I don't think 60, 90, or 38% should be taken literally. I work on headphones quite confidently half the time. 180? The brain adapts to these angles, particularly if you use a collection of reference tracks to 'calbrate' yourself periodically.
If you are not going the soffit route, I would get height adjustable stands and use FM or REW to determine the best compromise position to even out the Bass. It should be possible with a little ingenuity to hang the speakers. You might consider two subs in such a room. By careful placement, modal issues can be helped a lot with two subs in the optimum spot. Or even one perhaps. If do consider sub, and have money, I suggest you take a look at the Bag End system. I haven't heard it but it seems like someone is taking active eq seriously.
DD
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