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DIY Binary Amplitude Diffuser anyone?
Old 9th September 2014
  #61
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+1
Old 9th September 2014
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebastian Vera View Post
Many thax for sharing the secuence!!!!

and 1 question for you.

John, Would you expect for a 1d binary diffuser using an optimized curved surface shape to show a true diffusion characteristic? or at least enchance it?
Sebastian,

Sorry I missed your question earlier..

I think that it would enhance the 1D binary... but that would have to be proven with testing. I am currently working on a theater that I have used optimized spline/wave arrays. But instead of using plywood as Dr. D'Antonio does with his optimized splines, I use slats in a 70/30 or 80/20 coverage. The math works great. We are building this over the next few months and I can't wait to see the final results, tests and perception testing with audience.
Attached Thumbnails
DIY Binary Amplitude Diffuser anyone?-jak-17.jpg  
Old 21st September 2014
  #63
Quote:
Originally Posted by jhbrandt View Post
Sebastian,

Sorry I missed your question earlier..
its allright!

Quote:
Originally Posted by jhbrandt View Post
I think that it would enhance the 1D binary... but that would have to be proven with testing. I am currently working on a theater that I have used optimized spline/wave arrays. But instead of using plywood as Dr. D'Antonio does with his optimized splines, I use slats in a 70/30 or 80/20 coverage. The math works great. We are building this over the next few months and I can't wait to see the final results, tests and perception testing with audience.
I understand. yesss!!! there is somthing really special to the eye about the slats, I really like them, hope my ears find them atractive too. Aesthetics and acoustic treatment are not best friends
Looks like a great design! I totally buy it! please share your thoughts when finished!!! Im really intrested!
Old 23rd October 2014
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boggy View Post
Thanks Roberto!!!



I think you complicate too much. It is not needed to be that precise with size of reflective and absorptive surface... It is even possible to go up to 75% reflective covering with "two dimensional MLS" as shown at image below:


Also generate a much larger sequence and use whatever part you like from it...

again 2D:



very nice photo!


Im interested in installing slats on my rear wall. My room is sounding a bit dull at the moment and this looks like a very cost effective way of possibly bring back so life to my room however i have a few questions i would like to ask.

In the photo of the 2d slat diffuser on the front wall, i noticed that the slats were vertically symmetrical.

Is it okay to have vertical symmetry on the rear wall?

would it cause a problem having the 4 slats centered on the rear wall like you have in the photo?

I have left over sheets of MDF (6mm) that i use for slats, what width would you guys recommend for the slats and what part of the sequence should i start from?

I am only able to place slats vertically on my rear wall due to the framing method i have used. My rear wall is W 2.4m x H 2.3m and there will be a 40mm gap between the slats and absorption.
Old 9th May 2015
  #65
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Question

Is it possible to use the MLS sequences posted to design 2D binary panels (ie. like the RPG BAD panel)?

Also can you predict the frequencies of diffusion based on the size/number of wells in a 2D binary panel?

Thanks.
Old 9th May 2015
  #66
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1D + 2D Diffusorbers combined

Quote:
Originally Posted by jayfrigo View Post
... They are absorptive below 1 kHz, and based on the depth of absorption behind the grating panel (usually 1-4") they can absorb some bass as well while minimizing absorption above 1 kHz. Size of holes (usually 1/2" or 5/8") affects higher frequency attenuation. These surfaces can also be curved in various ways for some applications ...
After some experimenting I got quite comfortable to predict the performance of 1D (walls) combined with suspended 2D (ceiling) "diffusorbers".
Attached Thumbnails
DIY Binary Amplitude Diffuser anyone?-_dsc2811.jpg  
Old 10th May 2015
  #67
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Thumbs up

Quote:
Originally Posted by G. E. View Post
After some experimenting I got quite comfortable to predict the performance of 1D (walls) combined with suspended 2D (ceiling) "diffusorbers".
Hi Gernot. Those look amazing. Can you share any info on how you calculated the pattern of holes for your 2D binary diffusorbers?

Thanks.

Last edited by audiovisceral; 10th May 2015 at 05:27 AM..
Old 10th May 2015
  #68
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robertopisa's Avatar
Congrats Gernot, nice work...

I published the patterns for the 2D binary, they come from a Schroeder's book, so they are public:

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/9413912-post113.html

-R

Quote:
Originally Posted by audiovisceral View Post
Hi Gernot. Those look amazing. Can you share any info on how you calculated the pattern of holes for your 2D binary diffusorbers?

Thanks.
Old 11th May 2015
  #69
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Too BAD :-)

Quote:
Originally Posted by audiovisceral View Post
... Can you share any info on how you calculated the pattern of holes for your 2D binary diffusorbers? ....
Glad you like it! I've already posted some answers about my 1D/2D desicions. Using typically 50% coverage you run a little bit into a problem at high frequencies using a lot of BAD-style panels, there's simply to much absorption in the highs. I successfully overcame this aspect with a larger grid distance (filling the nulls with 2x2 arrays of holes so that the holes themselves didn't become to large). Worked out just fine, hope that helps.
Old 13th May 2015
  #70
Very cool!
Old 13th May 2015
  #71
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1D/2D Again

Quote:
Originally Posted by jayfrigo View Post
Very cool!
Thanks a lot, I used the same modules in a small odd room as well.
Old 14th May 2015
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G. E. View Post
Using typically 50% coverage you run a little bit into a problem at high frequencies using a lot of BAD-style panels, there's simply to much absorption in the highs. I successfully overcame this aspect with a larger grid distance (filling the nulls with 2x2 arrays of holes so that the holes themselves didn't become to large). Worked out just fine, hope that helps.
Thanks for the info. That's useful to know about large numbers of BAD style panels being too absorptive at high frequencies. I was wondering why you drilled your nulls like that also. Interesting concept. I'm a little confused though as to how your 1D panels are not even more absorptive at the high frequencies than the BAD style panels. What percentage of the faces of your 1D panels did you plan to have covered by the slats? Looks like around 60% or so?

For my application, the space I'm working with is about 20'x14' with 11' ceilings. I'm planning on making my own BAD style panels out of 1/8th inch MDF over 4" ecose 3 pcf mineral glass. I was figuring that build approach would give me good bass trapping and diffusion without too much deadening.

Maybe based on your comments I will mix it up with 50% RPG polystyrene 2D skylines and/or some GIK Acoustics polystyrene 1D QRD's to avoid overabsorption. I'd love to build some pretty solid wood QRD's or skylines but the damn things get so heavy and they're so much work to stain and finish.

For building 1D QRD's, do you think 1/8th inch MDF is thick enough material to be effective? Perhaps I could keep the weight down that way.

Thanks again for the help.

Last edited by audiovisceral; 14th May 2015 at 06:05 AM..
Old 15th May 2015
  #73
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DIY Diffusor Details

Quote:
Originally Posted by audiovisceral View Post
... That's useful to know about large numbers of BAD style panels being too absorptive at high frequencies. ...
Please note that without a context it is not useful to say BAD style panels "are" too absorptive at high frequencies. Someone might take that for granted ... better we say that DIY BAD style panels are absorptive at high frequencies (more absorptive as the grid gets smaller, thats why I choose a larger than usual grid). If or not this absorption is "too much" depends on the application and the number of these panels together with other elements in the room.

Quote:
Originally Posted by audiovisceral View Post
... I'm a little confused though as to how your 1D panels are not even more absorptive at the high frequencies than the BAD style panels. What percentage of the faces of your 1D panels did you plan to have covered by the slats? ...
Again they feature an even larger "grid" (though just 1-dimensional) than the 2D-diffusorbers. The slats cover more than 50% of the modules. To decide on that you better use a tool such as Whealy's Control Room Calculator.

Quote:
Originally Posted by audiovisceral View Post
... For building 1D QRD's, do you think 1/8th inch MDF is thick enough material to be effective? Perhaps I could keep the weight down that way. ...
I'm not sure if I get your question right -- the thickness of the material should be choosen to make a rigid structure (well it will vibrate anyway without dampening inside).

Last edited by G. E.; 15th May 2015 at 08:48 AM..
Old 28th August 2015
  #74
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Hi guys,
I'm very keen to experiment with some 1D BAD panels in my 2 channel listening room based on the MLS sequence provided by Boggy, but I've struggled to find information regarding the diffusion limits of such a design (eg for a particular 1D BAD panel with slats x width, and absorption depth y, this is where diffusion starts/stops).

I've done a bunch of research here, on the web and in Cox and D'Antonio's "Acoustic Absorbers and Diffusers" on BAD panels, and not found any single source that provides all the answers.
There seems a wealth of information available on QRDs, and Collo's QRDude is a fantastic tool, but less information is available on BAD panels.

I have a very small listening room (4.2m deep x 3.07m wide x 2.03m tall), currently with a lot of absorption, and would like to add some diffusion to the front/side/rear walls by adding slats to create BAD panels, but a key concern is getting far enough away from the rear wall to get diffusion.

The following points are either extracted from sources (text books, white papers) or my interpretation of the information from those same sources:
- minimum listening distance from any diffuser should be 3 x the longest wavelength being diffused (Cox and D'Antonio)
- Low frequency diffusive performance is limited by the properties of the absorbent material used. In practice the absorption must be on the order of a quarter wavelength deep to effectively remove energy, meaning that the theoretical lack of required depth of BAD panels does not hold true (source link no longer working - Salford uni PHD paper)
- For low frequencies, like the Schroeder diffuser, the period width must be greater than a wavelength to ensure the device works correctly when periodically repeated. (same Salford source as above)
- my interpretation of the above point is that this is not important if (for example) building a custom BAD diffuser across the rear wall of a listening space where you can derive a continous MLS sequence across the whole distance. It becomes important if designing modular BAD panels to be used next to each other.
- high frequency performance is limited by the directivity of the flat patches, since once wavelength is comparable to patch size an increasingly specular reflection results. Note this is also true for Schroeder diffusers, though their ability to alter the phase of a reflection means that this is less of a problem (source is the same Salford paper as above - apologies the link is broken)
- It should be remembered that practical hybrid surfaces are often mainly absorptive up to about 2 kHz and consequently for these surfaces it is only at mid - to high frequencies that dispersion needs to be considered. (Cox and D'Antonio)


Based on the above, my interpretation is:
- the low frequency diffusion limit of a BAD panel (excluding limits from periodicity) is the same as any absorber of the same material and thickness used in a BAD panel - absorption at lower frequencies will improve with gapping - but you would need to leave the back of the BAD panel open
- the depth of the absorber in the panel based on the absorber being effective down to 1/4 wavelength = 86/design low frequency limit of the panel (m) - so to operate down to 500Hz (ie still providing diffusion) you need a panel depth of 172mm (not including slat depth, and not considering gapping)
- the above points appear in conflict with the last quote from Cox and D'Antonio that practical hybrid surfaces are mainly absorptive up to 2kHz???
- the upper frequency of diffusive operation is defined by the width of the slats - the narrower the slats, the higher it will provide diffusion
- when the slat width equals the wavelength that's the upper limit of diffusion (this may not be correct???)
- I'm not sure how this is affected by multiples of slats in an MLS sequence (eg 4 x 1s in a row) which would obviously have more specular reflection at higher frequencies ???

I'd greatly appreciate some some sanity checking on the above wrt designing some 1D BAD panels.
Do my interpretations of the lower and upper diffusion limits of BAD panels above make sense?

cheers
Mike
Old 29th August 2015
  #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by almikel View Post
.............
I have a very small listening room (4.2m deep x 3.07m wide x 2.03m tall), currently with a lot of absorption, and would like to add some diffusion to the front/side/rear walls by adding slats to create BAD panels, but a key concern is getting far enough away from the rear wall to get diffusion.

............
From users listening experience (real goal of all our debates here, IMHO):
- If you want some liveliness in the room without adding just specular reflections, use amplitude grating (e.g. MLS 1D or 2D) type of diffusers.
- If you want some liveliness in the room but with stronger diffusion use phase grating construction diffusers.


Old 29th August 2015
  #76
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Jolida's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by boggy View Post
- If you want some liveliness in the room without adding just specular reflections, use amplitude grating (e.g. MLS 1D or 2D) type of diffusers.



For amplitude grating diffusors, does the thickness (not width) of the slat matter? If so, in what way?
Old 30th August 2015
  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jolida View Post
For amplitude grating diffusors, does the thickness (not width) of the slat matter? If so, in what way?
Amplitude grating diffuser model is defined by variation of the (amplitude of) absorption of surface... so, thickness of the slat doesn't occur.
In reality, thickness of the slat have miscellaneous influence, but we (AFAIK) have no model for that.

Old 30th August 2015
  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boggy View Post
From users listening experience (real goal of all our debates here, IMHO):
- If you want some liveliness in the room without adding just specular reflections, use amplitude grating (e.g. MLS 1D or 2D) type of diffusers.
- If you want some liveliness in the room but with stronger diffusion use phase grating construction diffusers.


cheers Boggy
What you're saying is not over think where the diffusion starts and stops with 1D BAD panels.
I'd still like to understand the science to know how to calculate the upper and lower limits of diffusion for a 1D BAD panel.
I've found great resources to determine the upper and lower diffusion limits for QRDs, but not BAD panels.
My post was attempting to define some design criteria for 1D BAD panels that the team here on GS could confirm or shoot down (and if shooting down hopefully propose some better ones).

My understanding is that:
- The lower limit of diffusion of a BAD panel is defined by when absorption drops from peak, ie the depth of the absorber is 1/4 of wavelength (ignoring gapping, and periodicity of the panel)

- the upper limit of diffusion of a 1D BAD panel is where the slat width equals the wavelength. Above that there would be scattering

Do these criteria make sense?

The lower limit is likely more important in my small room (3.7m deep), as I'd like to follow Cox and D'Antonio's recommendation to sit no closer than 3 wavelengths from the diffuser at the lowest limit of its diffusion.

cheers,
Mike
Old 30th August 2015
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by almikel View Post
cheers Boggy
What you're saying is not over think where the diffusion starts and stops with 1D BAD panels.
I'd still like to understand the science to know how to calculate the upper and lower limits of diffusion for a 1D BAD panel.
There is still not enough "science" for that... and for the reason.
Quote:
Originally Posted by almikel View Post
I've found great resources to determine the upper and lower diffusion limits for QRDs, but not BAD panels.
I have same experience.
Quote:
Originally Posted by almikel View Post
My post was attempting to define some design criteria for 1D BAD panels that the team here on GS could confirm or shoot down (and if shooting down hopefully propose some better ones).
Without phase grating component, there is no "design criteria", AFAIK.
From my experience, well, you can read subjective-objective opinions from my customers experience, translated by me to design criteria, I hope, nearest to real use of binary diffusers.
I see no possibility where binary diffusers may be even similar to good phase grating designs... from user experiences and from "science"... so there is no same design procedures and my criterion posted above is something useful to make decision from our needs (IMHO).
So, same term "diffuser" is not enough to make phase grating and amplitude grating devices even similar, from many reasons. I see no problem with that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by almikel View Post
My understanding is that:
- The lower limit of diffusion of a BAD panel is defined by when absorption drops from peak, ie the depth of the absorber is 1/4 of wavelength (ignoring gapping, and periodicity of the panel)

- the upper limit of diffusion of a 1D BAD panel is where the slat width equals the wavelength. Above that there would be scattering

Do these criteria make sense?
I never tried to make mathematical and physical model of binary diffuser, so I won't speculate, and even don't have need to do it, because (again) from my experience, with 1D or 2D binary designs you bring back some reflected sound enenrgy from 500Hz-1kHz, without much specular reflection components, no strong diffusion field, sorry.
Quote:
Originally Posted by almikel View Post
The lower limit is likely more important in my small room (3.7m deep), as I'd like to follow Cox and D'Antonio's recommendation to sit no closer than 3 wavelengths from the diffuser at the lowest limit of its diffusion.
That recommendation is for phase grating diffusers only... you need not to care about that with binary designs... they are far less strong diffusers than (regular) phase grating designs.

So, I see no real and useful parallel between amplitude grating and phase grating diffusers, and that is my premise.

Again, it is good to keep in mind that there is not much (human, bare) logic in natural sound behavior or acoustic science.


Last edited by boggy; 30th August 2015 at 11:29 AM..
Old 30th August 2015
  #80
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boggy's Avatar
Sorry for the late reply. I didn't see your post.
Hope this can help someone:

Quote:
Originally Posted by p_marrison View Post
very nice photo!
Thanks, but that is CG (Computer Graphics, rendered images), not a real photograph...

Here is one real photograph:

Quote:
Originally Posted by p_marrison View Post
Im interested in installing slats on my rear wall. My room is sounding a bit dull at the moment and this looks like a very cost effective way of possibly bring back so life to my room however i have a few questions i would like to ask.

In the photo of the 2d slat diffuser on the front wall, i noticed that the slats were vertically symmetrical.

Is it okay to have vertical symmetry on the rear wall?
Yes
Quote:
Originally Posted by p_marrison View Post
would it cause a problem having the 4 slats centered on the rear wall like you have in the photo?
No.
Quote:
Originally Posted by p_marrison View Post

I have left over sheets of MDF (6mm) that i use for slats, what width would you guys recommend for the slats and what part of the sequence should i start from?
5cm is ok.
Quote:
Originally Posted by p_marrison View Post
I am only able to place slats vertically on my rear wall due to the framing method i have used. My rear wall is W 2.4m x H 2.3m and there will be a 40mm gap between the slats and absorption.
that is ok.


Last edited by boggy; 30th August 2015 at 11:39 AM..
Old 30th August 2015
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boggy View Post
There is still not enough "science" for that... and for the reason.

I have same experience.

Without phase grating component, there is no "design criteria", AFAIK.
From my experience, well, you can read subjective-objective opinions from my customers experience, translated by me to design criteria, I hope, nearest to real use of binary diffusers.
I see no possibility where binary diffusers may be even similar to good phase grating designs... from user experiences and from "science"... so there is no same design procedures and my criterion posted above is something useful to make decision from our needs (IMHO).
So, same term "diffuser" is not enough to make phase grating and amplitude grating devices even similar, from many reasons. I see no problem with that.


I never tried to make mathematical and physical model of binary diffuser, so I won't speculate, and even don't have need to do it, because (again) from my experience, with 1D or 2D binary designs you bring back some reflected sound enenrgy from 500Hz-1kHz, without much specular reflection components, no strong diffusion field, sorry.

That recommendation is for phase grating diffusers only... you need not to care about that with binary designs... they are far less strong diffusers than (regular) phase grating designs.

So, I see no real and useful parallel between amplitude grating and phase grating diffusers, and that is my premise.

Again, it is good to keep in mind that there is not much (human, bare) logic in natural sound behavior or acoustic science.

Thanks Boggy
I'll get on with building some then.
Cheers
Mike
Old 2nd September 2015
  #82
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sorry if I sound like a broken record, but I'm still trying to work on some design principles for 1D BAD panels...
Is it valid to say that the thinner the slats (and corresponding gaps) are, the higher in frequency you will get some amount of diffusion from 1D BAD panels?

IOW, for the same width of panel, will using slats of 20mm width provide diffusion to a higher frequency than slats of 100mm width?

cheers
Mike
Old 10th September 2015
  #83
Here for the gear
Work in progress

Here's a picture of the rear corner of my new mixing room. Thanks Boggy, for posting the binary sequence. Hopefully the room will sound good when I'm done.
Attached Thumbnails
DIY Binary Amplitude Diffuser anyone?-diffusorber1.jpg  
Old 10th September 2015
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by almikel View Post
sorry if I sound like a broken record, but I'm still trying to work on some design principles for 1D BAD panels...
Is it valid to say that the thinner the slats (and corresponding gaps) are, the higher in frequency you will get some amount of diffusion from 1D BAD panels?

IOW, for the same width of panel, will using slats of 20mm width provide diffusion to a higher frequency than slats of 100mm width?

cheers
Mike
nah.. it will just raise the low starting point of diffusion.
Old 22nd September 2015
  #85
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Ah OK - so that would imply that the low starting point of diffusion is defined by 2 things:
- the ability for the absorption patches to absorb effectively - if the absorption layer is too thin, absorption at lower frequencies is reduced and diffusion reduces
- as the thickness of the slats reduces to less than the wavelength, the sound waves will just go around the slats, not be specularly reflected

so for getting the low point of diffusion of a BAD panel to approx 2kHz (so some level of diffusion above 2kHz):
- the absorption depth should be no less than 1/4 wavelength ie 43mm (maximum absorption for a velocity trap is at a depth 1/4 wavelength - not considering gapping)
- the slat width should be 172mm - as the wavelengths get longer they will start to "not see" the slats

If what I've said above is correct, that would tie in with what Cox and D'Antonio say about getting some diffusion from BAD panels above approx 2kHz - 2.5kHz.

cheers
Mike
Old 24th December 2015
  #86
Sen
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Sen's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by jhbrandt View Post
I thought I would share this for anyone who is brave enough to attempt.
The zip file is an Excel Spreadsheet.
This sequence gives a uniform/equal amount of 0s and 1s.
The pdf layout is in a grid of 61 by 83 positions without repeats.
Fun time.

Cheers,
John

-- I love math!
Thanks very much for these, John.
So, what's the diameter of the holes in the plan... I'm currently trying to make a BAD panel and I'm a bit stuck at how to do my spacings between holes (and blank sequence positions) in relation to the hole diameter.
Thanks very much.

EDIT: Oh, OK..so it's 10mm..

Last edited by Sen; 24th December 2015 at 11:20 AM..
Old 26th December 2015
  #87
Sen
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Sen's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by jhbrandt View Post
I thought I would share this for anyone who is brave enough to attempt.
Fun time.

Cheers,
John

-- I love math!
Hi John,
Well, I've certainly decided to attempt
When I come to the end of the sequence, how can I continue it? I have room left over on the sheet and would like to fill it all.

Thanks!!
Old 26th December 2015
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sen View Post
Hi John,
Well, I've certainly decided to attempt
When I come to the end of the sequence, how can I continue it? I have room left over on the sheet and would like to fill it all.

Thanks!!
Sen,

You're really doing that? okay. If you run out of room, mirror, then flip. Rinse and repeat.

It's easier to do this one; attached. It is based on an MLS of 144 positions.

So it's basically one sequence that is unfolded onto a poly-cylinder. You can do the same thing with the 61 X 83 sequence.
Cheers,
John
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Curved Binary Surface.pdf (1.84 MB, 629 views)
Old 26th December 2015
  #89
Sen
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Sen's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by jhbrandt View Post
Sen,

You're really doing that? okay. If you run out of room, mirror, then flip. Rinse and repeat.
Thanks John.. I thought I just had to mirror it, but wasn't sure because one whole sequence takes over half of the sheet, so once I mirror it the other part that is left over would be only about 60% of the whole sequence...That doesn't matter, does it..?
Old 26th December 2015
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jhbrandt View Post
Sen,

You're really doing that? okay. If you run out of room, mirror, then flip. Rinse and repeat.

It's easier to do this one; attached. It is based on an MLS of 144 positions.

So it's basically one sequence that is unfolded onto a poly-cylinder. You can do the same thing with the 61 X 83 sequence.
Cheers,
John
Nice John! I believe the larger one in the pdf attachement can be ready drilled during a coffe break or so.

A remark: The measurement at the very bottom of the pdf cannot be correct. Without calculation I guess it should be around 1140mm or so, when a 1200 mm straight width is bent to a curve.

Last edited by Adhoc; 27th December 2015 at 12:49 AM..
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