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Covering panels/foam with fabric......
Old 17th December 2008
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
it'd work better if you replace the tiles with a breathable fabric (again temporarily)
So basically I'd make traps without frames so they fit in the ceiling, that'd be pretty nice.
Would I have to use 703?
It's hard to find locally here in montreal apparantly...
I've been lucky with my first trap cause I got 703 from work but I have no clue where they got it from years ago.

Do the GIK bass trap have a wood frame to them or are they only covered with fabric?
Basically what I want to know is if there are holes on the side of the bass traps.

thanks
Old 17th December 2008
  #32
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mineral wool insulation is good. You'll hear it reffered to as Rockwool, or Roxul, or Safe and Sound, Rockboard, the list goes on. I know it's available in Canada. You're looking for 6lb. density.
Old 17th December 2008
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
mineral wool insulation is good. You'll hear it reffered to as Rockwool, or Roxul, or Safe and Sound, Rockboard, the list goes on. I know it's available in Canada. You're looking for 6lb. density.
Nice, thanks for those info, really useful to know, who knows, maybe I'll end up doing this crazy bass trap ceiling, that'd be nice looking too!

I'm new to this, are all those product refering to what we call 703?
Or is 703 a form of mineral wool insulation?
Old 18th December 2008
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by matskull View Post
Nice, thanks for those info, really useful to know, who knows, maybe I'll end up doing this crazy bass trap ceiling, that'd be nice looking too!

I'm new to this, are all those product refering to what we call 703?
Or is 703 a form of mineral wool insulation?
703 is the fiberglass equivilent to mineral wool
Old 18th December 2008
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by matskull View Post
It's hard to find locally here in montreal apparantly...
I now what you mean. The Canadian headquarters isn't even in Montreal. It all the way in Candiac.
Old 18th December 2008
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avare View Post
I now what you mean. The Canadian headquarters isn't even in Montreal. It all the way in Candiac.
For 703?
Is it possible to order directly from them?
If so that'd be great if you could tell me their name.
Thanks
Old 18th December 2008
  #37
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Ok, so I took some pictures of my room.

I hope it's gonna help you to help me

I didn't take them to make my place look like it's awesome, just took some pictures that really show how the room is.

I also included a picture of my DIY bass trap and pictures from the ceiling to show that the idea of making a huge bass trap ceiling would be possible cause the ceiling isn't attached to the rest of the basement.
Attached Thumbnails
Covering panels/foam with fabric......-studio_01.jpg   Covering panels/foam with fabric......-studio_02.jpg   Covering panels/foam with fabric......-studio_03.jpg   Covering panels/foam with fabric......-studio_04.jpg   Covering panels/foam with fabric......-studio_05.jpg  

Covering panels/foam with fabric......-studio_06.jpg   Covering panels/foam with fabric......-studio_07.jpg   Covering panels/foam with fabric......-bass_trap.jpg   Covering panels/foam with fabric......-ceiling_01.jpg   Covering panels/foam with fabric......-ceiling_02.jpg  

Old 18th December 2008
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by matskull View Post
For 703?
Is it possible to order directly from them?
If so that'd be great if you could tell me their name.
Thanks
Owens Corning makes 703

rockwool is honestly a reasonable substitute. and more affordable
Old 18th December 2008
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
Owens Corning makes 703

rockwool is honestly a reasonable substitute. and more affordable
Oh really, I thought it was the same price, I'll look at it too.
thanks
Old 18th December 2008
  #40
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On those pics it might be hard to tell but my little spot is 12x12 but the library (covered with a curtain) is almost 2" thick, so the room would be 10x12 in reality.
Old 18th December 2008
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by matskull View Post
Oh really, I thought it was the same price, I'll look at it too.
thanks
It varies by country to country, region to to region, local economy, proximity to factories, phases of the moon etc. Check for fiberglas ~3 lb/ft^3 density and mineral wool ~4 lb/ft^3.

Andre
Old 18th December 2008
  #42
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Outside of the ceiling replacement, here's an idea for the rest of your area. The Red corner trap is 4" thick (6" would be better), and goes ceiling to floor. Blue panels are all 2" thick, and 2' x 4' face. The two over the window could just be stacked no your ledge, and removed to allow day light. The others should probably be mounted. The green fill around the gorgous black laquer and brass china cabinet (sorry), is ment to represent stacked sheets of rockwool, covered with fabric. My thought is that when you do get a place of your own, you can use these loose sheets to make proper bass traps.

For wall panels and bass trap design, if you're looking for ideas, check out the studio build thread in my signature line.

(disclaimer: color of traps is to easier discribe types, not my idea of color choices)
Attached Thumbnails
Covering panels/foam with fabric......-fabric1.jpg   Covering panels/foam with fabric......-fabric2.jpg  
Old 18th December 2008
  #43
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Thanks a lot dykstraster and avare, really appreciated.

I looked at the different product mentioned here and I know for sure that safe and sound wouldn't work for my ceiling because it's soft.

The 703 I got in my bass trap would be perfect because it's very solid and it wouldn't fall off the ceiling.
So which one of those is as hard as 703?

Too bad cause I could get safe and sound easily and for cheap apparantly.

The more I think about the ceiling idea, the more I like it BUT, how efficient would it be compared to bass traps on the walls (see pictures I posted)?

Anybody tried this ceiling idea before?



Also, question for Glenn, are your traps open on the side?

Thanks
Old 18th December 2008
  #44
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It will do something for bass, but what it is really going to do, is somewhat erase your shortest dimension as far as early reflections go. Again, if you check out the link in my signature, I built a cloud over my tracking position, and it really has helped the articulation of sound in my room. I think if you found the right density of rockwool, it'd work fine in a ceiling grid. And again, this is material you can reuse at your residence when you get one.
Old 18th December 2008
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
Outside of the ceiling replacement, here's an idea for the rest of your area. The Red corner trap is 4" thick (6" would be better), and goes ceiling to floor. Blue panels are all 2" thick, and 2' x 4' face. The two over the window could just be stacked no your ledge, and removed to allow day light. The others should probably be mounted. The green fill around the gorgous black laquer and brass china cabinet (sorry), is ment to represent stacked sheets of rockwool, covered with fabric. My thought is that when you do get a place of your own, you can use these loose sheets to make proper bass traps.

For wall panels and bass trap design, if you're looking for ideas, check out the studio build thread in my signature line.

(disclaimer: color of traps is to easier discribe types, not my idea of color choices)
Wow thanks for doing this!!
I know the huge black thing is pretty ugly lol

I like the placement of the blue panels on the fireplace wall.
Would that make them more efficient or is it simply a matter of look?

For the green one over the library I'm not sure if it would work because there are lights in there and I usually put my curtain there when I'm not recording.
But the one in the corner between the wall and the library is a good idea.

I'm not sure if I could make such a long bass trap like the red one because the wall isn't straight at this place because of the basement fondation under the window.

For the one covering the window, that might be a good idea too but I'm not sure how they would stay in place..?

thanks again, really nice!!
Old 18th December 2008
  #46
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fireplace wall panels are staggered height wise to reduce large "stripes" of untreated surface. It will reduce flutter echo.

The panels on the window ledge would be framed in a 1" x 2" skeleton. Assuming it's not windy in there, you should be able to just stand them on the ledge. (I guess I'm assuming that the ledge is at least 2" deep.)

I guess I don't see how a 7' tall panel is a problem, just prop it up in the corner.

No worries on the illustration, your welcome. I really enjoy "sketchup"
Old 18th December 2008
  #47
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like this:
Attached Thumbnails
Covering panels/foam with fabric......-fabric3.jpg  
Old 18th December 2008
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
It will do something for bass, but what it is really going to do, is somewhat erase your shortest dimension as far as early reflections go. Again, if you check out the link in my signature, I built a cloud over my tracking position, and it really has helped the articulation of sound in my room. I think if you found the right density of rockwool, it'd work fine in a ceiling grid. And again, this is material you can reuse at your residence when you get one.
I keep replying at the same time as you do haha.

I know what you mean about the earliest reflections.
Sounds like a really good idea.

For the blue traps on the walls, wouldn't it be better if they'd be 4" thick?

I came to the conclusion that I need to treat my room more because when I close mic my drum it sounds boomy and not so clear at all.
So I'm thinking that I really should treat the bass and not the highs only.

Again, maybe 2" would do something for bass too, I don't have enough experience with acoustic treatment to know.
Old 18th December 2008
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
fireplace wall panels are staggered height wise to reduce large "stripes" of untreated surface. It will reduce flutter echo.

The panels on the window ledge would be framed in a 1" x 2" skeleton. Assuming it's not windy in there, you should be able to just stand them on the ledge. (I guess I'm assuming that the ledge is at least 2" deep.)

I guess I don't see how a 7' tall panel is a problem, just prop it up in the corner.

No worries on the illustration, your welcome. I really enjoy "sketchup"
Yeah it's about 2" deep, the problem would be with the shutter, which allready takes pretty much all of that 2".

As for the 7' tall corner panel, it would also be over the shutter that's why I doubt if that would work, I'll try to see what I can do about it.

thanks!
Old 18th December 2008
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by matskull View Post
I keep replying at the same time as you do haha.

I know what you mean about the earliest reflections.
Sounds like a really good idea.

For the blue traps on the walls, wouldn't it be better if they'd be 4" thick?

I came to the conclusion that I need to treat my room more because when I close mic my drum it sounds boomy and not so clear at all.
So I'm thinking that I really should treat the bass and not the highs only.

Again, maybe 2" would do something for bass too, I don't have enough experience with acoustic treatment to know.
Sure, 4" thick will absorb lower than 2". I was just concerned about your sq footage. You also may want to consider a 2" panel that is breathable on front and back, and spacing it from the wall a touch.

With all panels (corner or wall) the thicker the better ( as far as bass response).

Put simply:

2" thick - good

2" thick spaced 2" from wall - better

4" thick better yet

There's alot of math involved in this, but that is again put very simply. If I understood the math, I'd tell you...but I don't. Ideally, you'd know the bass mode frequency of your room (this is calculated from room dimensions and construction...it can also be measured using software). After you know your "mode", you can figure out how thick your treatment needs to be to be able to capture as low as that mode frequency.

Since this is a temporary home for your studio, I wouldn't get too envolved with measuring for it. Eventually you will have a dedicated space, and can get more involved with that one. Once there, you will find that you want an assortment of panel thicknesses, and will probably repurpose alot of the insulation you are buying for your temporary home into treatments better suited for your proper studio.

Learn along the way on this one, soak up as much as you can. Just don't let all of this learning interfere with the reason you are doing this: music.

In a twelve by twelve space with 7' ceilings you aren't going to be making the next Abbey Road, so do the best with what you can, and keep making music.
Old 18th December 2008
  #51
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I know it's never going to be perfect but for now I prefer to invest a couple hundred maybe on the room instead of buying new gear to realise that I still got to eq the **** out of my recordings.

My room doesn't sound like total crap neither but I just want to improve it a little.

I've had good result before in this room but it always has been a little bit harder than it was in my old room (where the ceiling where higher and the floor didn't have carpet on it), it was really clear sounding.

Like you say, I can't invest too much money and time in this cause it's not my house and I'll eventually have my own place.

So you're saying a 4" thick trap on the wall is better than a 2" thick spaced from the wall or are they about the same?

If I go the 2" thick route I'm think I'd space them 1" from the wall.
I like the design you made and the fact that it would cover more parts of the wall.

I red about Rockboard 60 which is apparantly a good substitute to 703 and I think I can find some in quebec, did you hear about it?
Old 18th December 2008
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by matskull View Post
I know it's never going to be perfect but for now I prefer to invest a couple hundred maybe on the room instead of buying new gear to realise that I still got to eq the **** out of my recordings.

My room doesn't sound like total crap neither but I just want to improve it a little.

I've had good result before in this room but it always has been a little bit harder than it was in my old room (where the ceiling where higher and the floor didn't have carpet on it), it was really clear sounding.

Like you say, I can't invest too much money and time in this cause it's not my house and I'll eventually have my own place.

So you're saying a 4" thick trap on the wall is better than a 2" thick spaced from the wall or are they about the same?

If I go the 2" thick route I'm think I'd space them 1" from the wall.
I like the design you made and the fact that it would cover more parts of the wall.

I red about Rockboard 60 which is apparantly a good substitute to 703 and I think I can find some in quebec, did you hear about it?
A 4" trap, assuming that it's properly built with appropriate materials, will get down as low as 65Hz...a 2" trap will only get down to 500Hz or so no matter how well built, no matter how much space you put behind it.

If you can manage to do the whole room in 4" traps you'd be well advised to do it. A 4" trap will do everything a 2" trap will do plus add the benefit of bass trapping.

Frank
Old 18th December 2008
  #53
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Quote:
Do the GIK bass trap have a wood frame to them or are they only covered with fabric?
Our product is made with the frame to the back with a plastic frame to the front (that keeps the edges nice and sharp) so the sides are open.

Glenn
Old 18th December 2008
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Weasel9992 View Post
A 4" trap, assuming that it's properly built with appropriate materials, will get down as low as 65Hz...a 2" trap will only get down to 500Hz or so no matter how well built, no matter how much space you put behind it.

If you can manage to do the whole room in 4" traps you'd be well advised to do it. A 4" trap will do everything a 2" trap will do plus add the benefit of bass trapping.

Frank
Frank,

what is the benefit of the air gap then?
Old 18th December 2008
  #55
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Allright, thanks Frank and Glenn.
Old 18th December 2008
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
Frank,

what is the benefit of the air gap then?
Well, let me be clear...the more air behind a trap the better it will perform to a point. If you have the space to put 4" behind a 4" trap you definitely should...our traps come with 1-1/2" behind the trap already, so you only have to come up with another 2-1/2". If you can put 2" behind a 2" panel you'll get all the way down to 500Hz, but not much further. That's what I was trying to say.

Frank
Old 19th December 2008
  #57
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I found a pack of 2" thick rockboard 60 covering 56 square feet for 92.26$ CAD.

Is that a normal price?
Old 19th December 2008
  #58
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Another question, if for some reason the rockboard 60's edges aren't rigid enough to make them stay in the ceiling, do you think I could spray some glue on the edges to make them more solid?

I think that would work...?

Also, does anybody know how heavy those panels are?
I wouldn't want my ceiling to drop on some drummer's head during a session lol.
Old 19th December 2008
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by matskull View Post
Also, does anybody know how heavy those panels are?
That depends entirely on how you build them. They could be 7lbs...they could be 25lbs. Even if they're 25lbs you can easily ceiling mount them using #10 sheet rock anchors and matching hooks. It takes about 10 minutes and $7.

Frank
Old 19th December 2008
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Weasel9992 View Post
That depends entirely on how you build them. They could be 7lbs...they could be 25lbs. Even if they're 25lbs you can easily ceiling mount them using #10 sheet rock anchors and matching hooks. It takes about 10 minutes and $7.

Frank
I'm planning to only cover them with fabric and replace the ceiling tiles with those instead, with the allready existing ceiling "suspension" (see pictures above)
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