The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
 Search This Thread  Search This Forum  Search Reviews  Search Gear Database  Search Gear for sale  Search Gearslutz Go Advanced
New RealTraps Educational Video - All About Diffusion Dynamics Plugins
Old 12th August 2008
  #1
Gear Guru
 
Ethan Winer's Avatar
 

Lightbulb New RealTraps Educational Video - All About Diffusion

All About Diffusion is the latest release in our "See and Hear" video lecture series. Most people have no way to hear what diffusors do or how they sound in a room. So this video explains diffusion in plain terms with no math, then lets you hear an acoustic guitar recorded in close proximity to five different surface types - a QRD diffusor, a poly diffusor, absorption, a bare wall, and a typical bookcase. The video is 16x9 widescreen, and the audio is at 256 kbps for highly accurate sound. It's listed about halfway down on the RealTraps Videos page.

Enjoy!

--Ethan
Old 12th August 2008
  #2
Gear Addict
 

great presentation

thanks for this, I really learned alot.
Bigos
Saraswati Studios
Old 12th August 2008
  #3
Lives for gear
 
danbronson's Avatar
 

Very cool. That does an excellent job of highlighting the differences and showing the kinds of problems a good diffusor can fix.

That Massenburg studio is insane! I would love to do something similar with my back wall. It would take ages though...

I find it interesting how bad the absorption sounded. Not that anyone actually places a mic like that when they're recording (which I sort of see as a fault in the shootout), but diffusion was far superior in this case.
Old 13th August 2008
  #4
Lives for gear
 
andrebrito's Avatar
 

Nice video ! :-)
Old 13th August 2008
  #5
Gear Guru
 
Glenn Kuras's Avatar
Good job Ethan..thumbsup

Glenn
Old 13th August 2008
  #6
Gear Guru
 
Ethan Winer's Avatar
 

Lightbulb

Thanks guys.

Quote:
Originally Posted by danbronson View Post
Not that anyone actually places a mic like that when they're recording (which I sort of see as a fault in the shootout)
The point was to show what diffusors sound like, and the only way to do that is to get up close and in their face. heh

--Ethan
Old 13th August 2008
  #7
Lives for gear
 
matskull's Avatar
 

Yeah pretty informative, I think your diffuser sounds the best.
Old 13th August 2008
  #8
Lives for gear
 
datune's Avatar
Well, Ethan, you did it again!

Thanks a lot for sharing so much information with the rest of the world, and yes, before someone points it out, obviously we all realize that at the same time this is clever advertising, but say what you want, for me personally, if we would label this video as a commercial, then by all means do I ever wish for all commercials to be this informative ;-)

Thanks Ethan !

Ps: One of these days I really have to sent some Belgian chocolates your way ;-)
Old 13th August 2008
  #9
Lives for gear
 
Doublehelix's Avatar
 

Ethan:

Great video, and very informative. Awesome job!!!
Old 13th August 2008
  #10
Gear Guru
 
Ethan Winer's Avatar
 

Lightbulb

Quote:
Originally Posted by datune View Post
obviously we all realize that at the same time this is clever advertising
Excellent - it's working. heh

Seriously, there's only one very minor "plug" for our diffusor, where I mention that it's also a bass trap. My main motive as always is to get people to understand the importance of room acoustics. Yes, I know it's an uphill battle at a site called Gearslutz, where the mantra is "buying new gear will solve all your problems."

But it's not about the gear. Hell, it's never about the gear unless your mixer is a $50 Radio Shack PA amplifier and your only microphone is the $2 type that comes with cheap computers. heh

The real value of this video is it lets people understand why their recordings of acoustic instruments in small untreated rooms sound like ass. They can hear first-hand that it's not the microphones or preamps or sound card or lack of word clock, but the close proximity to the room surfaces.

--Ethan
Old 13th August 2008
  #11
Lives for gear
 
danbronson's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethan Winer View Post
The point was to show what diffusors sound like, and the only way to do that is to get up close and in their face. heh

--Ethan
I'm just saying, nobody buys a diffusor because of what it sounds like two inches from it's surface while two feet from the source. I understand you performed it like this so the results would be more striking, but to accurately do this test in a real-world environment, you'd have to (at least partially) fill the room with whatever diffusor/absorber you're comparing and test from at least several feet away (which I speculate would change the results noticeably). I understand that's not possible, or easy at least. So thanks for a cool video, but I think it's important to note that in a real-world situation it's not going to be exactly like this. In fact, I'd bet money the rounded deflector actually helps quite a bit when you're further away from it, just by the nature of it's design. As it stands, it comes off as biased self-promotion designed to highlight the virtues of one kind of treatment only.

And on that note, I seriously disagree with your "only one very minor 'plug'" comment. The entire video was a plug. To say otherwise is just downright dishonest.

I don't mean to start anything by saying that. Reading back over what I've said, I come off as anti-Ethan or something. I'm not. You've done a lot to educate myself and a lot of people in regards to acoustics and treatment. And I'm very thankful for that, I can't stress that enough. You've helped me solve some problems in my own room. But all of your info is something I rightfully take with a grain of salt, because at the end of the day, you make money off of it. And I think that really shows in a video like this one.

Anyway, I'll shut up now! Thanks for another cool video.
Old 14th August 2008
  #12
Lives for gear
 
andrebrito's Avatar
 

I have no problem on that video having a commercial goal.

The thing I disagree is the term deflector. For me it is a diffuser, be it a poly or a QRD. I also disagree with polys having concave surfaces and being more costly than QRDs.
Old 14th August 2008
  #13
Lives for gear
 
wesarvin's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by danbronson View Post
I'm just saying, nobody buys a diffusor because of what it sounds like two inches from it's surface while two feet from the source. I understand you performed it like this so the results would be more striking, but to accurately do this test in a real-world environment, you'd have to (at least partially) fill the room with whatever diffusor/absorber you're comparing and test from at least several feet away (which I speculate would change the results noticeably). I understand that's not possible, or easy at least. So thanks for a cool video, but I think it's important to note that in a real-world situation it's not going to be exactly like this. In fact, I'd bet money the rounded deflector actually helps quite a bit when you're further away from it, just by the nature of it's design. As it stands, it comes off as biased self-promotion designed to highlight the virtues of one kind of treatment only.

And on that note, I seriously disagree with your "only one very minor 'plug'" comment. The entire video was a plug. To say otherwise is just downright dishonest.

I don't mean to start anything by saying that. Reading back over what I've said, I come off as anti-Ethan or something. I'm not. You've done a lot to educate myself and a lot of people in regards to acoustics and treatment. And I'm very thankful for that, I can't stress that enough. You've helped me solve some problems in my own room. But all of your info is something I rightfully take with a grain of salt, because at the end of the day, you make money off of it. And I think that really shows in a video like this one.

Anyway, I'll shut up now! Thanks for another cool video.
I second Dan on this one. Let's see a video of large amounts of the different kinds of treatment in a 15x20ish room, with the mic and player set up in a normal spot. Also, poly's don't seem like they are normally spaced that close, so pointing out the between-poly null in that manner is very unfair, and rather a jab at an earlier poly thread in this very forum.

In the end, I would never mind having a few Realtraps QRDs! (though my science-fair-foamboard and elmer's-glue QRDs are quite thriftily dandy...)

p.s. Once Ethan gets over his poly hatred, he'll team up with Glenn and make a QRD-basstrap with certain panels curved like a poly!
Old 14th August 2008
  #14
Gear Guru
 
Glenn Kuras's Avatar
Quote:
p.s. Once Ethan gets over his poly hatred, he'll team up with Glenn and make a QRD-basstrap with certain panels curved like a poly!
I don't think Ethan has any kind of hatred for polys, but just pointing out that the traditional polys, like the ones he had in the video) are not as good for smaller rooms then other designs. With that said though we actually use the poly concept in our own D1 (and the new one not on the market yet Sonotube Diffusor post #33) to solve problems that are common in past QRDs. Thus getting the BEST OF BOTH WORLDS!!!!!!heh

Glenn
Old 14th August 2008
  #15
Lives for gear
 
matskull's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Glenn Kuras View Post
I don't think Ethan has any kind of hatred for polys, but just pointing out that the traditional polys, like the ones he had in the video) are not as good for smaller rooms then other designs. With that said though we actually use the poly concept in our own D1 (and the new one not on the market yet Sonotube Diffusor post #33) to solve problems that are common in past QRDs. Thus getting the BEST OF BOTH WORLDS!!!!!!heh

Glenn
I don't know a lot about diffusor but by going this way, do you also get "worst of both world"?

Just asking, btw it looks really good.
Old 14th August 2008
  #16
Gear Guru
 
Glenn Kuras's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by matskull View Post
I don't know a lot about diffusor but by going this way, do you also get "worst of both world"?

Just asking, btw it looks really good.

??????? the worst????????

Glenn
Old 14th August 2008
  #17
Lives for gear
 
matskull's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Glenn Kuras View Post
??????? the worst????????

Glenn
Yeah, like the cavity on poly diffusor thst Ethan was talking about in his video.

Then again, I don't know **** about diffusor.
thanks
Old 14th August 2008
  #18
Gear Guru
 
Glenn Kuras's Avatar
Oh I see what you are getting at. You would never build a bunch of polys the same size and if some cases that close together. Our design uses the curve to help with lobing (no scattering) at those frequencies that are a problem. If you see the curve on the following new diffusor on some of the wells







you can see it would not have that effect that Ethan was getting with the design he used. Keep in mind that in a LARGE room a poly could be the FULL width of the room.thumbsup

Glenn
Old 14th August 2008
  #19
Gear Guru
 
Glenn Kuras's Avatar
Needless to say about if you agree or disagree (not saying any of you are) with the video, it is great to have Ethan take the time to show that acoustics have an effect. You would be surprised how many people call with the question "So what effect will I have after treating the room". That statement alone shows how much work companies like ours and Ethan's have to promote/educate the public.

Glenn
Old 14th August 2008
  #20
Lives for gear
 
duvalle's Avatar
 

hi ethan,

i think it's clear that this video is somekind of a commercial for realtraps.
but it is still very interesting and well made!!
so: thx for that!!


only thing i wanted to ask:

you say that most (nearfield) monitors only give sound to the front.
as far as i understand that's right for the high/mid frequencies.
but low/bass frequencies will come out of the back too.
or did i missunderstand you??

cheers!
Old 14th August 2008
  #21
Lives for gear
 
danbronson's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by duvalle View Post
hi ethan,

i think it's clear that this video is somekind of a commercial for realtraps.
but it is still very interesting and well made!!
so: thx for that!!


only thing i wanted to ask:

you say that most (nearfield) monitors only give sound to the front.
as far as i understand that's right for the high/mid frequencies.
but low/bass frequencies will come out of the back too.
or did i missunderstand you??

cheers!
That's true (Ethan has a good article on it), but the frequencies would be fairly low (<500 Hz) and diffusors of this size aren't very effective for those frequencies. If you can build a very, very deep diffusor, that would work (but wouldn't be practical at all). Or you could just use absorption to treat the problem.

Glenn, that is a very nice looking diffusor. Simple and classy. Looks like a clever idea too. Any idea when it'll hit the market? Is it 2'X4'? How deep?
Old 14th August 2008
  #22
Lives for gear
 
matskull's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Glenn Kuras View Post
Oh I see what you are getting at. You would never build a bunch of polys the same size and if some cases that close together. Our design uses the curve to help with lobing (no scattering) at those frequencies that are a problem. If you see the curve on the following new diffusor on some of the wells







you can see it would not have that effect that Ethan was getting with the design he used. Keep in mind that in a LARGE room a poly could be the FULL width of the room.thumbsup

Glenn
I see, thanks for clarifying.
As you say, Ethan really showed how treatment can affect a room, I am gonna treat mine as soon as I can afford it.
That would be really interesting if you'd do a video too...if you can.
So we can hear another alternative.
thanks
Old 14th August 2008
  #23
Lives for gear
 
tomdarude's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by danbronson View Post
If you can build a very, very deep diffusor, that would work (but wouldn't be practical at all).
I´d encourage all you guys to check out George Massenburg´s Studio at Blackbird.

I recently had the honor to have dinner with george and ask him about 500 questions on his room design, after having heard a 5.1 mix (+ full HD-video capture) of a recording he did at this one-of-a-kind tracking&mixing room!

I think his approach of 2D-diffusion (I remember him saying something like between 220Hz and 8kHz......diffuser depth approx. 1,7m!!) in a mid-size/larger room is actually pretty much the first real NEW approach in studio design in many, many years.....let´s just say:

I was absolutely overwhelmed by what I heard, saw and been told from his experiences inside studio c !!

all the standards (RFZ, tons of bass-trapping etc.) do apply at a smaller scale (project-) studio.....but there´s more to room acoustics than absorbtion-surfaces can do....

and I´m glad really seeing companies supplying more and more diffusion products!!
Old 14th August 2008
  #24
Lives for gear
 
danbronson's Avatar
 

Yes, that studio is incredible looking! I would love to get in there with some instruments and play around. The wall diffusors look to be about three feet deep and who knows how many square feet they cover! Imagine building that though! What a pain in the ass it'd be! Like I said, not practical! heh

Cool how it's a tracking and mixing room too. Makes sense, since diffusion like that would not be easy to duplicate. But just shows you can get good results using the same room for both.

So how about a list of those 500 questions, and their answers of course...? heh
Old 14th August 2008
  #25
Lives for gear
 
matskull's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tomdarude View Post
I´d encourage all you guys to check out George Massenburg´s Studio at Blackbird.

I recently had the honor to have dinner with george and ask him about 500 questions on his room design, after having heard a 5.1 mix (+ full HD-video capture) of a recording he did at this one-of-a-kind tracking&mixing room!

I think his approach of 2D-diffusion (I remember him saying something like between 220Hz and 8kHz......diffuser depth approx. 1,7m!!) in a mid-size/larger room is actually pretty much the first real NEW approach in studio design in many, many years.....let´s just say:

I was absolutely overwhelmed by what I heard, saw and been told from his experiences inside studio c !!

all the standards (RFZ, tons of bass-trapping etc.) do apply at a smaller scale (project-) studio.....but there´s more to room acoustics than absorbtion-surfaces can do....

and I´m glad really seeing companies supplying more and more diffusion products!!
That studio is just plain crazy!!! wow
Old 14th August 2008
  #26
Lives for gear
 
matskull's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by danbronson View Post
Yes, that studio is incredible looking! I would love to get in there with some instruments and play around. The wall diffusors look to be about three feet deep and who knows how many square feet they cover! Imagine building that though! What a pain in the ass it'd be! Like I said, not practical! heh

Cool how it's a tracking and mixing room too. Makes sense, since diffusion like that would not be easy to duplicate. But just shows you can get good results using the same room for both.

So how about a list of those 500 questions, and their answers of course...? heh
It probably is really hard to clean too! lol
Old 14th August 2008
  #27
Gear Guru
 
Glenn Kuras's Avatar
Quote:
Glenn, that is a very nice looking diffusor. Simple and classy. Looks like a clever idea too. Any idea when it'll hit the market? Is it 2'X4'? How deep?
As soon as I can get Bryan and Jason to settle on the copy! In fact everyone send them pms TO GET THAT DONE!!!!!! lol lol

Quote:
I see, thanks for clarifying.
As you say, Ethan really showed how treatment can affect a room, I am gonna treat mine as soon as I can afford it.
That would be really interesting if you'd do a video too...if you can.
So we can hear another alternative.
thanks
There has been talk of that in the GIK halls, but as far as diffusion, our message would not be to far off of Ethans. Polys, like the ones he showed, are great for bigger rooms.

Glenn
Old 14th August 2008
  #28
Lives for gear
 
wesarvin's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Glenn Kuras View Post
Needless to say about if you agree or disagree (not saying any of you are) with the video, it is great to have Ethan take the time to show that acoustics have an effect. You would be surprised how many people call with the question "So what effect will I have after treating the room". That statement alone shows how much work companies like ours and Ethan's have to promote/educate the public.

Glenn

Very true indeed. Maybe we should start an examples thread, with before and after examples of different kinds of treatment in our rooms.
Old 14th August 2008
  #29
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tomdarude View Post
I´d encourage all you guys to check out George Massenburg´s Studio at Blackbird.
...........................
I was absolutely overwhelmed by what I heard, saw and been told from his experiences inside studio c !!

all the standards (RFZ, tons of bass-trapping etc.) do apply at a smaller scale (project-) studio.....but there´s more to room acoustics than absorbtion-surfaces can do....

and I´m glad really seeing companies supplying more and more diffusion products!!
I know that room, and you're right to be overwhelmed

But don't be confused. That diffusion represents an enormous amount of absorption as well.
They refer to it as behaving as an anechoic room with an ambiance. (can't remember exactly now: ambichoic or something)
Old 14th August 2008
  #30
Gear Guru
 
Ethan Winer's Avatar
 

Lightbulb

Quote:
Originally Posted by duvalle View Post
i think it's clear that this video is somekind of a commercial for realtraps.
If everyone here would like to chip in and pay, say, $4,000 to produce an educational video with absolutely no commercial content, I'll be glad to do that. heh

Quote:
you say that most (nearfield) monitors only give sound to the front. as far as i understand that's right for the high/mid frequencies. but low/bass frequencies will come out of the back too.
Yes, that's correct. Below about 300 Hz (depends on the speaker) sound radiates in all directions. But most diffusors do nothing at such a low frequency. More on that here:

Front Wall Absorption

--Ethan
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Similar Threads
Thread
Thread Starter / Forum
Replies
drewrevolution / So much gear, so little time
20
Ethan Winer / Product Alerts older than 2 months
6
IndieEngineer / Geekslutz forum
5
structuredloud / So much gear, so little time
5
FunkFaker / Geekslutz forum
5

Forum Jump
Forum Jump