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GIK acoustic's vs realtraps Diffusion Products
Old 13th February 2015
  #91
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Jens Eklund's Avatar
Try this before you decide on wool: Multi-layer Absorber Calculator

That peak at about 140 Hz: do you know what surfaces are in play for that mode? I would guess it´s the 0.0.2 mode if your ceiling height is about 2,4-2,5 meters. If so; you need to treat the ceiling (or the floor … probably not) in order to address it properly.
Old 13th February 2015
  #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jens Eklund View Post
Try this before you decide on wool: Multi-layer Absorber Calculator

That peak at about 140 Hz: do you know what surfaces are in play for that mode? I would guess it´s the 0.0.2 mode if your ceiling height is about 2,4-2,5 meters. If so; you need to treat the ceiling (or the floor … probably not) in order to address it properly.
Have you see pictures i have attached?,i have a cloud about the desk for ceiling and i have one on the wall to ceilling in the back of the desk,all i want is to help me choosing the right type of fiberglass!
Old 14th February 2015
  #93
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Jens Eklund's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by baross View Post
Have you see pictures i have attached?,i have a cloud about the desk for ceiling and i have one on the wall to ceilling in the back of the desk,all i want is to help me choosing the right type of fiberglass!
I´ll ask again; what is the height of your room? Have you figured out what boundaries correlates to the pronounced peak at about 140 Hz? If not; you should, or all your efforts might be in vain.

Forget about density when it comes to velocity based absorbers (like wool etc.)! It´s about the flow resistivity in conjunction with the depth used that matters most.
Old 14th February 2015
  #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jens Eklund View Post
I´ll ask again; what is the height of your room? Have you figured out what boundaries correlates to the pronounced peak at about 140 Hz? If not; you should, or all your efforts might be in vain.

Forget about density when it comes to velocity based absorbers (like wool etc.)! It´s about the flow resistivity in conjunction with the depth used that matters most.
my room have 240 cm height,how could i find from what wall is reflecting the 140hz peak?

Edited: I have put the microphone on the ceiling at first reflection point where the cloud is placed and i have seen that from there is comming the 140hz peak also from the desk,when i measure with the mic this surfaces was the most prominent at the 140 hz, i must treat only the ceiling for that peak?Should i use same mineral wool in the left and right early reflection points?
Old 14th February 2015
  #95
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Jens Eklund's Avatar
So, here’s what you should do:

Check the waterfall in REW and locate the exact center frequency of that mode (about 140 Hz). Play this frequency and check if it is the 0.0.2 mode (it´s very likely that it is). If so; you need to focus your attention to the ceiling (if you want to fix this issue).
Old 14th February 2015
  #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jens Eklund View Post
So, here’s what you should do:

Check the waterfall in REW and locate the exact center frequency of that mode (about 140 Hz). Play this frequency and check if it is the 0.0.2 mode (it´s very likely that it is). If so; you need to focus your attention to the ceiling (if you want to fix this issue).
What is 0.0.2 mode?
Old 14th February 2015
  #97
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Jens Eklund's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by baross View Post
What is 0.0.2 mode?
It's the second axial mode that fits in the Z (height) axis of a room: http://www.bobgolds.com/Mode/RoomModes.htm
Old 14th February 2015
  #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jens Eklund View Post
It's the second axial mode that fits in the Z (height) axis of a room: http://www.bobgolds.com/Mode/RoomModes.htm
Ok,i have try another setup,moved the desk a little further from the front wall,did new measurements,and i think is better now,see pictures attached,first picture is the old one with the speakers close to wall,second is the new placement further from the front wall a little bit more,also the waterfall & spectogram of the new position measurements,what do you think now,is better? The peak is at 138.68 hz & the nul is at 50hz!
Attached Thumbnails
GIK acoustic's vs realtraps-111bmp.jpg   GIK acoustic's vs realtraps-changing-bmp.jpg   GIK acoustic's vs realtraps-waterfall.jpg   GIK acoustic's vs realtraps-spectogram-new.jpg  
Old 14th February 2015
  #99
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Suomela's Avatar
 

Out of curiosity, after having looked closer at your speaker placement; does not your desk and the screen in between the speakers cause destructive reflections (thus affecting the SPL vs frequency response)?


/Suomela
Attached Images
GIK acoustic's vs realtraps-desk-reflection.jpg 
Old 14th February 2015
  #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suomela View Post
Out of curiosity, after having looked closer at your speaker placement; does not your desk and the screen in between the speakers cause destructive reflections (thus affecting the SPL vs frequency response)?


/Suomela
Should i remove desk & screen?) I don't know how much the desk & the screen affects frequency response,but after placing the desk & the speaker in new position i think the frequency of room has been improved,and again,for the moment i have no treatment in the room,that's why i have move them,to find a better frequency response,and to be helped in choosing the right wool for treating the acustic in the room,thank you!
Old 14th February 2015
  #101
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Suomela's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by baross View Post
Should i remove desk & screen?) I don't know how much the desk & the screen affects frequency response,but after placing the desk & the speaker in new position i think the frequency of room has been improved,and again,for the moment i have no treatment in the room,that's why i have move them,to find a better frequency response,and to be helped in choosing the right wool for treating the acustic in the room,thank you!
Well, no.

I only wanted to bring up this as an example of one of the multitude of things to consider when one is setting up a space for critical listening. I have read your posts in this thread but can't see that you have described what you want to achieve/solve by additional diffusers, fiberglass etc.

Regarding possible reflections caused by the desk and/or screen (and other surfaces), I suggest that you investigate / analyze these by looking at the impulse response envelope (ETC) through the separate measurements of L and R speaker which I see that you already have.

Before you go forward, you might want to read this and make a search on desk reflection and ETC (aka Envelope Time Curve / Energy Time Curve), topics which previously have been extensively discussed on this forum.

I should mention that I am a layman in these matters.


/Suomela
Old 14th February 2015
  #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suomela View Post
Well, no.

I only wanted to bring up this as an example of one of the multitude of things to consider when one is setting up a space for critical listening. I have read your posts in this thread but can't see that you have described what you want to achieve/solve by additional diffusers, fiberglass etc.

Regarding possible reflections caused by the desk and/or screen (and other surfaces), I suggest that you investigate / analyze these by looking at the impulse response envelope (ETC) through the separate measurements of L and R speaker which I see that you already have.

Before you go forward, you might want to read this and make a search on desk reflection and ETC (aka Envelope Time Curve / Energy Time Curve), topics which previously have been extensively discussed on this forum.

I should mention that I am a layman in these matters.


/Suomela
What i want to achieve is simple,i want to treat the bad frequencies,and make my room sounds good,and based on the graph i have send it in previous pics to be advised on what type of mineral wool should i use to treat bad response frequencies,thanks!
Old 14th February 2015
  #103
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Suomela's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by baross View Post
What i want to achieve is simple,i want to treat the bad frequencies,and make my room sounds good,and based on the graph i have send it in previous pics to be advised on what type of mineral wool should i use to treat bad response frequencies,thanks!
Ok.
Have a look at this post. From the information given there, calculate what is best for your needs by reading through the information found by this link which Jens posted earlier in this thread. You will probably need to read even more on this stuff because what you want to achieve isn't as simple as just installing rockwool in a room.


/Suomela
Old 16th February 2015
  #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jens Eklund View Post
It's the second axial mode that fits in the Z (height) axis of a room: http://www.bobgolds.com/Mode/RoomModes.htm
Here is Rew files,left speaker,right right speaker,both speaker and calibration files,help me interpret the waterfall,decay,and tell what should i do to improve room response,the room is not treated at all,i just moved the desk & speakers a little bit further from the wall,also a little bit wider,thank you for your help all!
Attached Files
Old 16th February 2015
  #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jens Eklund View Post
Ok,i will read,but i only wanted you to open files from rew that i have attached and give me your first impression,thanks!
Old 16th February 2015
  #107
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Jens Eklund's Avatar
Well; you have a few nasty modes that needs attention; 25, 45-52 (might be two or more modes), 69 & 139 Hz being the majors.

You have some early reflections you need to trace down and attenuate/redirect, arriving at about; 0,6 (at least on the right side), 3, 5 and 8-8,5 ms.
Old 16th February 2015
  #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jens Eklund View Post
Well; you have a few nasty modes that needs attention; 25, 45-52 (might be two or more modes), 69 & 139 Hz being the majors.

You have some early reflections you need to trace down and attenuate/redirect, arriving at about; 0,6 (at least on the right side), 3, 5 and 8-8,5 ms.
Thank you,i have put the mic on the ceillin where the cloud will be,and i have realized that 139hz problem is coming from there and from the back of the desk where wall meets ceilling,i'm planing using ow 703 4" for the left & right reflection points and for cloud & wall to ceilling to use ow 703 6",for the bass traps i cannot use more than 4" at least for the front corner bass traps,i could use in the back corners of the room 6",do you think it will improve those freq?Thank you and sorry for my english
Old 16th February 2015
  #109
Old 17th February 2015
  #110
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Glenn,

I have your GIK 244 panels. Just a question. I assumed they were 4" thick with a 2" air-gap built in to the panel. But I see on your website that it says 5.25" thick. Is that including or excluding the built-in air gap?
Old 17th February 2015
  #111
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What would be the best way to space your panels off the wall? Any suggestions would be appreciated.
Old 17th February 2015
  #112
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Glenn Kuras's Avatar
The over all thickness is 5.25".

For spacing it further off the wall I would recommend cutting 2 pieces of wood or PVC piping and place between the wall and the panel. The weight of the panel should hold it. You could cut 4 pieces, attach to the back frame also.
Old 17th February 2015
  #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glenn Kuras View Post
The over all thickness is 5.25".

For spacing it further off the wall I would recommend cutting 2 pieces of wood or PVC piping and place between the wall and the panel. The weight of the panel should hold it. You could cut 4 pieces, attach to the back frame also.
So then the thickness of the mineral wool alone is 3" or so?
Old 17th February 2015
  #114
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Glenn Kuras's Avatar
4"
Old 22nd February 2015
  #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jens Eklund View Post
Thank you for your help,i have finished treating the room,i have attached REW measurements (with treatment & without treatment) what do you think?Is it better?What should i do to improve better?Do you think putting 1D diffussers on the rear wall will improve room response?Thank you
Attached Files
File Type: zip 22.02.zip (3.99 MB, 16 views)
Old 23rd February 2015
  #116
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Glenn Kuras's Avatar
Frequency response is looking much better. You could though use a lot more bass trapping in corners. BTW when you measure you should measure one speaker at a time then both. You can then view to the ETC.
Old 23rd February 2015
  #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glenn Kuras View Post
Frequency response is looking much better. You could though use a lot more bass trapping in corners. BTW when you measure you should measure one speaker at a time then both. You can then view to the ETC.
I have put bass traps in all 4 corners from the ground to the ceilling,should i put on the lateral of the room wall to ceiling?i will do measurements again with one speaker at a time,thank you!
Old 23rd February 2015
  #118
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Glenn Kuras's Avatar
Quote:
I have put bass traps in all 4 corners from the ground to the ceilling,should i put on the lateral of the room wall to ceiling?
Sure the more corners you cover the better the response.
Old 23rd February 2015
  #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glenn Kuras View Post
Sure the more corners you cover the better the response.
Thank you Glen for your support,what do you think about 1d diffusers on the rear wall?i'm afraid my room will become dead,thanks!
Old 27th February 2015
  #120
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Jens Eklund's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by baross View Post
... what do you think about 1d diffusers on the rear wall?i'm afraid my room will become dead,thanks!
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