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What material to go with in a small room.
Old 23rd May 2019
  #1
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What material to go with in a small room.

First time posting, honestly didn't know this forum existed up until a couple of days ago. In those few days, the wealth of information here has completely blown my mind and honestly created more questions than answers; which incidently why I'm posting this.

So here we go. This is not so much about a studio, but rather home theater acoustics. Couple of months ago we converted one of the spare bedrooms into a small dedicated theater. The Room is 9’11x13’x8' with a small closet (~3’x3’) in the back right of the room which houses the AV equipment; I have removed the door in order to have IR access as well as mitigate some vibrations. On the right wall, at approximate midpoint there is a 6’x6’ window. The door to the room is on left wall at the back of the room (rr). The screen is a 120” 16:9 spandex hung on a frame in-front of the exterior wall (currently not dry-walled/open insulation, wrapped in velvet). Behind the screen are 3x DIYSG HTM10’s; there’s roughly 6” of air gap between the false wall and the back wall insulation. Subs are 2x sealed DA 18-22 Ultimax in 4cuf boxes at the ¼ and ¾ on the front wall. Ls/Rs, Rear L/R are RSL CG3’s hung roughly 1’6” above ear-level, canted towards the MLP.The front and right walls are exterior walls with insulation. Back and left walls are interior with no insulation. Ceiling goes to the attic and is insulated.

Now that the baground is out of the way, the acoustics of the room leave for much to be desired. So I was looking to add some treatments. I have reached out to GIK to explore my options on the commercial market. However, while I wait on the response I figured I would take a look at the DIY side of things.

My main focus right now is treating first reflections (walls, ceiling, and definetly the back wall) as well as taming the muddy bass. There are tons of threads here of homemade panels, however most are older and I can't find any of the insulation used. What I can readily get my hands on (though with painful freight shipping) are OC703, Roxul mineral wool #4 , Rockboard 60/80. The most cost effective being mineral wool #4 4" from: https://www.buyinsulationproductstor...ustical-board/

Plan is to build 2x4'x4" with a 4" airgap for early reflections as well as eat up some of that low end bass as I don't really have room for dedicated bass trapping. Now for the rear wall, would the same 2'x4'x4" panels be sufficient, or should I go with another material like Rockboard 60/80 from ATS or OC703 2" in 3 layers for total of 6" thickness w/ 4-6" air gap standoff?

Any ideas or suggestions? Thoughts? Criticism?

Cheers!
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What material to go with in a small room.-room-2.0.1.jpg  
Old 23rd May 2019
  #2
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Your plans for the room won’t do much at the sub frequencies or even for the bass a little above that. The 4” panels, even with an air gap, won’t go low enough. You probably need some fairly massive corner traps or soffit traps (or both) to somewhat tame the unwanted LF peaks and nulls in a small rectangular room.
I would wait and see what GIK sees and what they recommend.
With GIK, or if you want to be a DIY person, REW is the first thing you should get and start to learn. It is a very good tool to check where you are, what works (when you try something new), and whether internet advisors (like me) are full of wisdom, themselves, hot air or steaming poop.
Good luck!
Old 23rd May 2019
  #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bushman View Post
Your plans for the room won’t do much at the sub frequencies or even for the bass a little above that. The 4” panels, even with an air gap, won’t go low enough. You probably need some fairly massive corner traps or soffit traps (or both) to somewhat tame the unwanted LF peaks and nulls in a small rectangular room.
I would wait and see what GIK sees and what they recommend.
With GIK, or if you want to be a DIY person, REW is the first thing you should get and start to learn. It is a very good tool to check where you are, what works (when you try something new), and whether internet advisors (like me) are full of wisdom, themselves, hot air or steaming poop.
Good luck!
I did order a UMIK and have been reading up on REW, which is its own can of worms haha. As for my panels, I understand that to do true bass trapping one would need massive amounts of material, which just isn't going to happen in this room. What I'm after is improving the acoustics the best I can without turning this bathtub into a sardine can. Which basically boils down to treating reflections and taking some "lower" end with it; I'm afraid the majority of bass issues will have to be handled by moving the subs around.

Just looking for some material options to get the best result I can.
Old 23rd May 2019
  #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EightyDuce View Post
I did order a UMIK and have been reading up on REW, which is its own can of worms haha. As for my panels, I understand that to do true bass trapping one would need massive amounts of material, which just isn't going to happen in this room. What I'm after is improving the acoustics the best I can without turning this bathtub into a sardine can. Which basically boils down to treating reflections and taking some "lower" end with it; I'm afraid the majority of bass issues will have to be handled by moving the subs around.

Just looking for some material options to get the best result I can.
You aren’t trying to record in the room, so “pleasing” is more of a goal than “flat”.
I understand that. But you seem to be heading toward a “dead top, uncontrolled bottom” sound that is unlikely to please you over time.
There are some facts about big corner and soffit traps that make them more possible in a small room than people might expect. In a listening room, no one should be standing in a corner, so that is not useful space. Ditto for the wall-ceiling junctures that are not the top of your screen wall. You might have a substantial “useless” space behind the subwoofers, if your diagram is to scale. That looks like a possible soffit trap space on the floor. Soffit traps (all traps) can work whether up down or sideways.
Don’t decide what you can’t do without fully exploring what all your options are.
I’d love to have those double 18 subs speak clearly in your room. That would be something to hear.
Old 26th May 2019
  #5
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Once you get UMIK-1 it is probably a good idea to relocate the subwoofers, one in the front left corner and one in the rear right. Once time aligned (probably needing a miniDSP 2x4 and a copy of Multi-Sub Optimizer) your muddyness should be greatly reduced. Once that is done you may no longer need any extra basstraps.
Also it is hard to see but if your seating (ingears) are at 1/3 from the rear wall you will miss most of the peaks and nulls creted along the lenght of the room.

Personally I have one subwoofer plus a 300x600 bass trap between the ceiling and all four walls. I will still need to go with multiple subwoofers to sort out the remaining issues below 50Hz.

You can read about it here: Is my theory sound for fluffy bass traps around the ceiling?
Old 26th May 2019
  #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mashie View Post
Once you get UMIK-1 it is probably a good idea to relocate the subwoofers, one in the front left corner and one in the rear right. Once time aligned (probably needing a miniDSP 2x4 and a copy of Multi-Sub Optimizer) your muddyness should be greatly reduced. Once that is done you may no longer need any extra basstraps.
Also it is hard to see but if your seating (ingears) are at 1/3 from the rear wall you will miss most of the peaks and nulls creted along the lenght of the room.

Personally I have one subwoofer plus a 300x600 bass trap between the ceiling and all four walls. I will still need to go with multiple subwoofers to sort out the remaining issues below 50Hz.

You can read about it here: Is my theory sound for fluffy bass traps around the ceiling?
UMIK should be here tomorrow and I've been digging into REW as well as trying to process guidance from lads at GIK (awesome bunch), all the while researching acoustic material. That being said the more I'm reading into REW, it seems I'm putting cart before the horse so to speak, worrying about treatments. So the plan of action for tomorrow, is to star getting measurements to see what's actually going on in my room on paper vs my uninformed perception. Will definitely play with moving subs around, I've done sub a sub crawl for these subs and while anywhere near a corner, the corner load makes it hella boomy/muddy.

Now about what you said about MiniDPS, my subs are currently running off of an iNuke NU6000DSP, while I don't think it has as many options as MiniDSP, it should still be sufficient for my needs. Or is am I incorrect (entirely possible haha).

As the my current seating position, it is ~27 in from the back wall, head/ears at ~30 in. Which is closer to 1/4 of room length (146") rather than 1/3; so I may have to push my seating forward a bit (another 6" or so); anything more than that and I'm starting to creep too close to the screen where it makes it difficult to focus.
Old 26th May 2019
  #7
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by EightyDuce View Post
UMIK should be here tomorrow and I've been digging into REW as well as trying to process guidance from lads at GIK (awesome bunch), all the while researching acoustic material. That being said the more I'm reading into REW, it seems I'm putting cart before the horse so to speak, worrying about treatments. So the plan of action for tomorrow, is to star getting measurements to see what's actually going on in my room on paper vs my uninformed perception. Will definitely play with moving subs around, I've done sub a sub crawl for these subs and while anywhere near a corner, the corner load makes it hella boomy/muddy.

Now about what you said about MiniDPS, my subs are currently running off of an iNuke NU6000DSP, while I don't think it has as many options as MiniDSP, it should still be sufficient for my needs. Or is am I incorrect (entirely possible haha).

As the my current seating position, it is ~27 in from the back wall, head/ears at ~30 in. Which is closer to 1/4 of room length (146") rather than 1/3; so I may have to push my seating forward a bit (another 6" or so); anything more than that and I'm starting to creep too close to the screen where it makes it difficult to focus.
Take a look at the Multi-Sub Optimizer website, you might be able to enter the calculated values into the NU6000DSP.

You can still put the subs at the 1/4 and 3/4 locations, just try and get one of them at the rear wall. The idea is to try and kill the standing waves at the length of the room, the 1/4 and 3/4 is to stop the waves between the side walls.

Moving the seat out of the 1/4 position from the rear will help a lot as you will have nulls and peaks there.
Old 1st June 2019
  #8
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johannburkard's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by EightyDuce View Post
Plan is to build 2x4'x4" with a 4" airgap for early reflections as well as eat up some of that low end bass as I don't really have room for dedicated bass trapping.
In a small room like this, reducing, let alone getting rid of, the side wall interferences will be tough.

The good thing is that your room modes will probably be very high up.

Look at either tuned membrane traps (mid-expensive, specific to the room), RPG Modex/Renz VPR plates (not specific to the room) or the PSI AVAA (expensive, not specific to the room.).

Last edited by johannburkard; 1st June 2019 at 06:04 PM.. Reason: Added VPRs
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