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Max -Pro Tools Hd pci e tdm cards to hdx upgrade
Old 25th October 2011 | Show parent
  #241
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gainreduction's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by vudoo View Post
Actually, even if you don't run any plug-ins, native system is still not reliable enough for my taste for more serious tracking needs.

I've been testing the Native HD system with the latest 12 core Macpro and an HD 16x16 i/o for over a month. Tracking duties vary from bands (4-5 pieces) to myself doing drum tracks for various film and album projects. I never track with any plugs and i can definitely feel some latency when the buffer is set to anything but 32 and at that setting you're bound to get an error message as you're piling up tracks or pops coming out of nowhere while recording. I would never use such a rig in a professional client supervised session, just way too unreliable. As for mixing Native HD is great.

I just find most of the tests comparing Native to DSP based DAW so unrealistic. Real world professional needs goes way beyond ''how many plug-ins i can instantiate''

DSP based DAW definitely still has its place.

Another great option is instead of going for the HDX, get a Native HD system (used mainly for mixing) and buy a quality small mixer (Tonelux, API) for your tracking needs.
+1
Old 25th October 2011 | Show parent
  #242
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sound_music's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by vudoo View Post
Actually, even if you don't run any plug-ins, native system is still not reliable enough for my taste for more serious tracking needs.

I've been testing the Native HD system with the latest 12 core Macpro and an HD 16x16 i/o for over a month. Tracking duties vary from bands (4-5 pieces) to myself doing drum tracks for various film and album projects.

I never track with any plugs and i can definitely feel some latency when the buffer is set to anything but 32 and at that setting you're bound to get an error message as you're piling up tracks or pops coming out of nowhere while recording. I would never use such a rig in a professional client supervised session, just way too unreliable. As for mixing Native HD is great.

I just find most of the tests comparing Native to DSP based DAW so unrealistic. Real world professional needs goes way beyond ''how many plug-ins i can instantiate''

DSP based DAW definitely still has its place.
wow, you're one of the first guys i've heard describe hearing latency at such a low buffer setting in HD native. but your post is also one of the first i've read that's talking about tracking in an overdub situation. it seems most of the guys digging the native system for tracking do mainly live off the floor, one shot acoustic recording with a bunch of people in the room... food for thought. (like you, i also have a pretty cruel ear where timing and groove are concerned, what you're describing would drive me nuts.)
Old 25th October 2011 | Show parent
  #243
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CaptainHook's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max G View Post
No native system can achieve 4 samples.
I did capitalize the "IF".

Quote:
Another great option is instead of going for the HDX, get a Native HD system (used mainly for mixing) and buy a quality small mixer (Tonelux, API) for your tracking needs.
I think this is a better option too.
Old 25th October 2011 | Show parent
  #244
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
wow, you're one of the first guys i've heard describe hearing latency at such a low buffer setting in HD native. but your post is also one of the first i've read that's talking about tracking in an overdub situation. it seems most of the guys digging the native system for tracking do mainly live off the floor, one shot acoustic recording with a bunch of people in the room... food for thought. (like you, i also have a pretty cruel ear where timing and groove are concerned, what you're describing would drive me nuts.)
well, if you count punching in here and there as overdubs then ALL my live sessions will have overdubs at some point. Even sessions where the band is tracking off the floor as you call it requires some sort of overdubs.

But even if there's NO overdubs, when i monitor via PT HD native, i definitely feel a slight amount of latency with the buffer setting @ 64 or higher.

Actually, i have yet to track drums on any native rig where i can monitor from the computer with no latency issue, Nuendo, Cubase, Digital performer, Logic...using Apogee, Lynx, RME convertors...you name it.
Old 25th October 2011
  #245
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wildpark's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
so Digidesign actually invested in real Processing and we all can sale off ouer
Digital Audio denmark units !!!
lol lol

welcome too the second religion after music
named Avid alias Digidesign
Old 25th October 2011 | Show parent
  #246
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sound_music's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by vudoo View Post
well, if you count punching in here and there as overdubs then ALL my live sessions will have overdubs at some point. Even sessions where the band is tracking off the floor as you call it requires some sort of overdubs.

But even if there's NO overdubs, when i monitor via PT HD native, i definitely feel a slight amount of latency with the buffer setting @ 64 or higher.

Actually, i have yet to track drums on any native rig where i can monitor from the computer with no latency issue, Nuendo, Cubase, Digital performer, Logic...using Apogee, Lynx, RME convertors...you name it.
me neither, i've tracked in TDM for so long for that very reason. (although i'm sure native latency improved since the last LE system i used for writing sessions with artists outside of the studio... i think the last one i used was 7.4 with an mbox, that was quite a few years ago.)
Old 25th October 2011 | Show parent
  #247
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sound_music's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by scott petito View Post

But how can you say that more increased voices is not a big one to an tdm user?? With at the rate at which voices are eaten in a hybrid tdm rtas tdm system a moderate say hd3system can be brought to it's knees by high sample rates and surround

How can you say extended delay compensation is not a big one??
Put a waves -api2500 a uad fairchild and precision limiter on a buss and bam you are over the limit!

How can you say the mix engine is not important? We tdm owners are supposed to be the pros yet theoretically a guy on a laptop in his bedroom can how far greater headroom the us

Scott
agreed, those are all great and important improvements. (although i strongly disagree they're a grand more important, or 1.5k more important for the guys coming from 8!!)
Old 25th October 2011 | Show parent
  #248
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by sound_music View Post
wow, you're one of the first guys i've heard describe hearing latency at such a low buffer setting in HD native. but your post is also one of the first i've read that's talking about tracking in an overdub situation. it seems most of the guys digging the native system for tracking do mainly live off the floor, one shot acoustic recording with a bunch of people in the room... food for thought. (like you, i also have a pretty cruel ear where timing and groove are concerned, what you're describing would drive me nuts.)
I went from HD3 to HD native because I am 90% mixing and when I do record it's one vocal or instr at a time in LLM. If I was still recording multiple tracks at a time, or recording with plug-ins, I would have stayed w/ HD3. For mixing, I prefer HD native.
Old 25th October 2011
  #249
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by karljohnson View Post
MAX
- As this information is not on the Avid website but I 've now been told I can't run an HDX card anyway on my MAC PRO. - Can you confirm that HDX cards will only run on Mac Pro's from Nehlahem onwards and that my 2008 Dual Quad Core is somehow now outdated for HDX cards ? - The cost keeps rising
Thanks
Karl
Confirmed.

There is an incompatibility with Harpertown Macs that does not allow firmware updates to the HDX card. Attempting to do so can leave the card in a useless state. As such, we cannot qualify the card with Harpertowns.

We tried to make it work, as we had many Harpertowns internally, but unfortunately it is not fixable on our end.
Old 25th October 2011 | Show parent
  #250
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wmcintyre's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max G View Post
Confirmed.

There is an incompatibility with Harpertown Macs that does not allow firmware updates to the HDX card. Attempting to do so can leave the card in a useless state. As such, we cannot qualify the card with Harpertowns.

We tried to make it work, as we had many Harpertowns internally, but unfortunately it is not fixable on our end.
Hi, does that also apply to the HD Native card?
Old 25th October 2011 | Show parent
  #251
Gear Maniac
 
drumster's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by wmcintyre View Post
Hi, does that also apply to the HD Native card?
I'd also be very interested in the answer to this question. Max, can you speak to the compatibility of the Harpertown Mac Pros with the HD Native card?
Old 25th October 2011 | Show parent
  #252
Gear Maniac
 
LSD-Studio's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
I bought my HD PCI some years ago, then Avid didn't support PPC anymore, unfortunately the newer Macs don't have PCI-X Slots, so I had to buy the totally overpriced PCI->PCIe crossgraded so I could update to 9...spent like 3k€ for the crossgrade in July, now I have to spend another 1k just to upgrade to a software that's a dead end anyways, cause my newly aquired PCIe HD system is obsolete already.
I do need the features in PT10, but 1k for an upgrade that's a dead end...not to speak of the fact that I can't even use half the benefits of 10 with my HD system anyways? And that only 3 months after I spent 3k to get out of the dead end that PCIX/PPC was?
I love working in PT and I used to defend that [bleep][bleep][bleep][bleep]ty company wherever I could, but this is going too far, AVID can [bleep][bleep][bleep][bleep]ing suck it!
Seriously, many of us spent thousands and tens of thousands of $/€ for our HD systems just to get bum raped by that company....way to lose loyal customers...

don't know if you can tell, but I'm effin pissed here!
(and I guess I'm not the only one)....this company claims to have THE PRO AUDIO DAW....yet they're pissing off all the pros/HD users/long time loyal customers just to please the prosumer(former Cubase) users and to quickly gain some new customers.
AVID: the loyal pros that were and are using your MIX/TDM/HD systems are who stuck with you in the past and who defended you company, business decisions, product, overpriced hardware etc for years, some even decades....and those are also the people you're pissing off the most.
I migrated from Cubase and I was happy....now I ****ing regret having thrown thousands of € at you just to be bum shagged by you!

I'm never gonna upgrade to 11 (cause that would render my Control24 useless), and there's zero sense in upgrading to 10 fo 1k$, especially not if I can't benefit from half of the new features anyways....
So I'll just keep working on my current system....and when I get to the point where I need something new/faster/different it will not be an Avid product.
I won't be spending a single effin $ on those highway robbers anymore.
Old 25th October 2011 | Show parent
  #253
Gear Maniac
 
LSD-Studio's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigGreen View Post
Hell yeah.

Check my story,...
Started the year saving my pennies to upgrade my ProControl.
IN THE LAST 3 MONTHS,...
I have upgrade to 9, bought 2 HDio, and best of all a NEW MAC to support it. Of course I went with the cheapest Mac because the cards do the work, right?.
Well, fuq me, it was all for not.

Now, sitting on the MOST FUQN UP TO DATE RIG AVID SELLS!!!!!, I have to come up with 6K to upgrade????




Avid, I hope your mother dies slow,

D

yeah man, I just can't believe what those [email protected] are doing to their loyal customers.
these systems we bought are somewhere between 10 and 40k$,,,might be peanuts for them, but for a small/medium sized studio that's quite some dough..nothing you can spend every year.

and what angers me the most is their attitude trying to tell us how good a deal those upgrades/crossgrades are....
maybe for users of the native version, of for new users, but HD users just get raped.

there's a video on youtube in which one one of those guys is going on and on about how cheap and affordable everything is...
well, tell that to those guys who just spent 15k on your most up to date system (most up to date= a couple of weeks ago), just to find out now that they spent 15k for a dead end solution.
well you can still buy that 1k$ software update that you can't really benefit from as a HD user....

I can't ****ing believe them


And just to make things clear: I'm not complaining about the fact that AVID comes up with new and supposedly better hardware....I'm complaing about the fact that they're dry raping long time HD users with that 1k$ upgrade
Old 25th October 2011 | Show parent
  #254
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Kingtone's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigGreen View Post
...I have to come up with 6K to upgrade????...
Im sorry, but i dont see why you 'have to' come up with $6k to upgrade.
If you are sitting on the most up to date system to date, it will serve you well for at LEAST a good 5 years.
I bought a used PCIe HD3 system back in early 2007 and it still kills everything I need it to do...(Which includes complex mixes at 96khz for major label releases.) and will for another 2-3 years at least.
It is not redundant all of a sudden because a new system is announced.
They are not holding a gun to my head 'extortion style' for that $6k.
Old 25th October 2011 | Show parent
  #255
Gear Maniac
 
LSD-Studio's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kingtone View Post
Im sorry, but i dont see why you 'have to' come up with $6k to upgrade.
If you are sitting on the most up to date system to date, it will serve you well for at LEAST a good 5 years.
I bought a used PCIe HD3 system back in early 2007 and it still kills everything I need it to do...(Which includes complex mixes at 96khz for major label releases.) and will for another 2-3 years at least.
It is not redundant all of a sudden because a new system is announced.
They are not holding a gun to my head 'extortion style' for that $6k.
that's correct, but I can totally understand that it's quite frustrating to spend 15k or more on a system, then just 4 weeks later the company comes out with something new and supposedly better for less money (well, that's just bad luck and can happen). Where it's getting really annoying is if you then have to spend 1k$ just to update the software....
that's at least what's annoying the fick out of me....NOT that AVID comes out with something better and I spent my money too early, but the fact that they're asking that much money for a simple software update (on top of the thousands I've just spent on their now "not supported anymore" hardware) is just not acceptable for me as a former loyal customer.
Old 25th October 2011 | Show parent
  #256
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Kingtone's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by LSD-Studio View Post
that's correct, but I can totally understand that it's quite frustrating to spend 15k or more on a system, then just 4 weeks later the company comes out with something new and supposedly better for less money (well, that's just bad luck and can happen). Where it's getting really annoying is if you then have to spend 1k$ just to update the software....
that's at least what's annoying the fick out of me....NOT that AVID comes out with something better and I spent my money to early, but the fact that they're asking that much money for a simple software update (on top of the thousands I've just spent on their now "not supported anymore" hardware) is just not acceptable for me as a former loyal customer.
Yes i agree, the software upgrade is stupidly high. Just as with pt9... im not going to bother upgrading. cos i actually dont NEED to spend dumb money on something that wont change my life. $300.. well that would be a different matter.

But the amount of whining on here that Avid are FORCING people with 'extortion tactics' is comical.
That's like me bitching that Toyota are FORCING me to spend $40k because my 2001 Tundra is an old model. Heck, it would be nice to have a new one, but mine does everything i need it to.. and still very reliably.. just like my 'outdated' 2007 model PCIe HD3 accel system on a 2007 mac does.
Old 25th October 2011 | Show parent
  #257
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by drumster View Post
I'd also be very interested in the answer to this question. Max, can you speak to the compatibility of the Harpertown Mac Pros with the HD Native card?
Also interested in this question...
Old 25th October 2011 | Show parent
  #258
Gear Nut
 
smetaxas's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Does anyone know if all of the "included" Avid plug-ins are AAX & will they also work on the DSP HDX cards? That would certainly give some incentive to upgrade to HDX.

I'm used to tracking with TDM plugins & while you wait for developers to get on board, I could probably get by with a lot of the stock plugins if they were DSP capable.

Any definitive answer from Avid?
Old 25th October 2011 | Show parent
  #259
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drew's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by smetaxas View Post
Does anyone know if all of the "included" Avid plug-ins are AAX & will they also work on the DSP HDX cards? That would certainly give some incentive to upgrade to HDX.

I'm used to tracking with TDM plugins & while you wait for developers to get on board, I could probably get by with a lot of the stock plugins if they were DSP capable.

Any definitive answer from Avid?
They're AAX Native for now. No point in the DSP ones being there as no one has an HDX card yet. They will probably include them in an update once the cards start shipping in quantities.
Old 25th October 2011 | Show parent
  #260
Gear Addict
 
ckreon's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigGreen View Post
No doubt, high class problems.

However, you are totally missing my point.
It isn't about being forced to do anything.
It is about doing everything I can to be latest greatest and Avid deciding that my segment of the market needs to be using Native, then financially closing the door on the path I have been trying to follow.
I looked at Native, it doesn't meet my needs.

If Avid really wants to play big boy technology company, then fine do so.
Educate your user base on your future direction so they can make educated business decisions. A real technology company doesn't have to / shouldn't want to deceive their customer base or feel the need for surprises. Their amateur business relationship behavior is comical.

If I had known about this release I could have made better decisions.
This is totally unprofessional.


Also,...To use the wide open and extremely competitive auto market in your analogy to Avid's closed upgrade path is comical.
This is truth. The modern consumer has far more access to information and to each other. We want openness and honesty from the companies we give our dollars to, because dollars are getting in short supply. Want an idea of how to run a modern business? Look at the emerging indie game developers - they are deeply involved with the customers who are investing in their continued success.

It's not about blindly throwing out advertising, hype, and "shiny things" anymore. It's about maintaining relationships.

It will undoubtedly take a few behemoths falling for the industry to fully realize this though. Shame - lots of good people working for these companies.
Old 25th October 2011 | Show parent
  #261
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zak7's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Exclamation

PRO TOOLS HD 10 GROUP BUY!
$300 per upgrade to Pro Tools HD 10 from PTHD 7,8,9.
Old 25th October 2011 | Show parent
  #262
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by zak7 View Post
PRO TOOLS HD 10 GROUP BUY!
$300 per upgrade to Pro Tools HD 10 from PTHD 7,8,9.
I presume this is a suggestion? I thought the red underlined writing was going to be a link... needless to say it's not. very disappointing

nice thought though
Old 25th October 2011 | Show parent
  #263
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AMIEL's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr XY View Post
I presume this is a suggestion? I thought the red underlined writing was going to be a link... needless to say it's not. very disappointing

nice thought though
Yeah, that would be a nice move.
Old 25th October 2011
  #264
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Ace'Lo's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I doubt Avid is budging on the upgrade price. From what I was told, they put alot of money into Protools 10. So you know they must recoup somehow..smh
Old 25th October 2011 | Show parent
  #265
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IM WHO YOU THINK's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
You guys are missing the point. The software upgrade is 999 so that you DONT buy it. They want you to buy new hardware. A TDM accel system works well. It fits you like a glove and u know what it's capable of. If you added more features to that you'd be less likely to leave your glove for a new one.

As it stands you'll say "I have to spend a G? I might as well get more power"

Fuk em. My system works. If anyone is moving up who has a pro control he wants to unload, shoot me a decent number and I may bite. Same goes for plugins I don't This time next year, you might get one of my old Alesis quadraverbs in a trade

I went with a hackintosh to run my old PCIx accel cards. People argued it wouldn't be "supported" And now in 5 years none of it will be supported. So is technology. I'd love to have more voices and more ADC But I'm not spending 7Gs for it in this economy. Hell I'd love to put sessions in ram. But I refuse to pay a THOUSAND dollars for a software upgrade.

This is no way for a company to treat the customers that were its bread and butter "high end" customers. But Digi/Avid has ALWAYS done it. I knew when there was a native offering and none for HD users in 9 that we were being phased out. A few months later here we are.

Fuk digi. They won't get my THOUSAND dollars on an upgrade. I'll wait for someone to sell it used (if I ever move up). My upgrade money is going toward saving for a console. I'm off the digital Titty as soon as I save enough for a decent console.
Old 26th October 2011 | Show parent
  #266
Gear Addict
 
adogg4629's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
After having just spent lots of cheddar on an HD native system in August, I have to admit $999 it too rich for my blood. My solution: Stick with 9 and wait for the price to come down.
Old 26th October 2011 | Show parent
  #267
Gear Maniac
 
LSD-Studio's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigGreen View Post
No doubt, high class problems.

However, you are totally missing my point.
It isn't about being forced to do anything.
It is about doing everything I can to be latest greatest and Avid deciding that my segment of the market needs to be using Native, then financially closing the door on the path I have been trying to follow.
I looked at Native, it doesn't meet my needs.

If Avid really wants to play big boy technology company, then fine do so.
Educate your user base on your future direction so they can make educated business decisions. A real technology company doesn't have to / shouldn't want to deceive their customer base or feel the need for surprises. Their amateur business relationship behavior is comical.

If I had known about this release I could have made better decisions.
This is totally unprofessional.


Also,...To use the wide open and extremely competitive auto market in your analogy to Avid's closed upgrade path is comical.



Avid, Lick it!,
D
Quoted for truth
Old 26th October 2011 | Show parent
  #268
Gear Addict
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigGreen View Post
If Avid really wants to play big boy technology company, t
D
Totally, the big worldwide announcement looked like APPLE, honestly who really cares about that Lady Kirk Arnold and her Corporate vision.
Old 26th October 2011 | Show parent
  #269
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by neon View Post
Totally, the big worldwide announcement looked like APPLE, honestly who really cares about that Lady Kirk Arnold and her Corporate vision.
Shareholders, potential investors, and other sharks...
Old 26th October 2011 | Show parent
  #270
Gear Guru
 
drBill's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by D.Don View Post
Shareholders, potential investors, and other sharks...
Then they must not be very happy. An already bottom line offering down another 3.5% today. Do you think they are reading GS or the facebook page???? hehhehheh
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