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64 bit Pro Tools 10 is coming. This is HUGE!
Old 13th September 2011
  #91
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I am sure there will be new DSP TDM hardware soon even if the macs might have 16 cores and more some day . I am able to hear the difference between the TDM and the floating point native engine in Pt 9.
TDM is not floating point and hopefully they will keep it as is and expand to 64bits. The problem for me is bussing 32bit floating point tracks doesn´t sound so good that TDM. But I am curious to listen to the new 64bit floating point engine and compare it to TDM.
I hope in PT10 there will be some more MIDI and Instruments tracks improvements.
The midi timing is still not good in PT9. It´s a sha**.!!
There are some people out there using Protools not just as an Harddisk Audio Player .Midi editing and programming now .......is kind of Cubase 1 standard .!!!

cheers.
Old 13th September 2011
  #92
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DR Music's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by KEYBEEETSSS View Post
Sounds like u may need another computer 42 tracks is pretty small even if u had 5 inserts per...

Well I won't say pretty small but. Maybe average.. My small sessions usually run about 50 tracks & over half of those are usually stereo.. Many plugs & I normally mix @128..

Anyways, sorry to jump off topic.. Can't wait for 10¡¡¡
Sent from my SPH-D700 using Gearslutz.com App
I have to do vocals as well, so with harmonies it'll be close to 50..

2010 MacPro 6core 16gb memory 240gb SSD Drive... New enough??? I think deleting the database and preferences might do it... This is my first session with Pro Tools9 never had an issue with Logic 9... I'm finding out about the fixes available.., which I'm not used to from

Can't wait for 10!!! Either!!!
Old 14th September 2011
  #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tom_lowe View Post
Actually, you couldn't cache a whole session in to RAM currently (unless it's a very small session) due to the 4GB RAM limit of 32bit applications.

Considering Pro Tools has to send all audio through to the TDM cards, if it is working at 64bit and the cards only support 32bit, then a bit-bridge would have to be implemented in order for the data to be sent to the DSP chips. The only way it could otherwise do that is by running Pro Tools in 32bit mode, which would mean losing the RAM disk function.

This is exactly the same problem 64bit versions of DAWs like Nuendo have when working with 32bit plug-ins.

Since this is such a major leap for Pro Tools, it would be absolutely stupid to restrict it just to maintain compatibility with 10 year old TDM hardware. I'm not for one minute saying that lots of people don't use them, but the fact remains in computer terms they are very outdated. Would you want to run Pro Tools on a Pentium II PC or a G3 Mac?

Look at the demo, it was running on PT Native, which seems to be what they are now pushing. Far more likely, I think they will say if you want to keep your PT HD, the highest you can go is 9.0.5, those who want PT10, it's time to move on.

Expecting PT10 to work with TDM cards is a bit like expecting PT9 to work on a Digi 001 or original Mbox.
for film work you could cache inside of 4gbs.

since TDM cards are available today for sale, the liklihood of PT10 running on them is pretty much guaranteed.
Old 14th September 2011
  #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charles maynes View Post
since TDM cards are available today for sale, the liklihood of PT10 running on them is pretty much guaranteed.
Charles is correct. Avid/Digi has always phased products out over time. Mix 24 systems were supported along side HD systems for almost 2 years before they dropped support for them. Hell, the Mbox 1 was supported for almost 4 years while Mbox 2's were available.

There is no way a new version of PT won't support TDM for at least a while. Almost every large post house in the world (even Fairlight based ones) have at least one HD TDM rig in use. Most have 3 or 4.
Old 14th September 2011
  #95
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KEYBEEETSSS's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DR Music View Post
I have to do vocals as well, so with harmonies it'll be close to 50..

2010 MacPro 6core 16gb memory 240gb SSD Drive... New enough??? I think deleting the database and preferences might do it... This is my first session with Pro Tools9 never had an issue with Logic 9... I'm finding out about the fixes available.., which I'm not used to from

Can't wait for 10!!! Either!!!
Understood; Nevertheless, u shouldn't be having much memory issues with that rig...
Old 14th September 2011
  #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LA-2A View Post
I am sure there will be new DSP TDM hardware soon even if the macs might have 16 cores and more some day . I am able to hear the difference between the TDM and the floating point native engine in Pt 9.
TDM is not floating point and hopefully they will keep it as is and expand to 64bits. The problem for me is bussing 32bit floating point tracks doesn´t sound so good that TDM. But I am curious to listen to the new 64bit floating point engine and compare it to TDM.
I hope in PT10 there will be some more MIDI and Instruments tracks improvements.
The midi timing is still not good in PT9. It´s a sha**.!!
There are some people out there using Protools not just as an Harddisk Audio Player .Midi editing and programming now .......is kind of Cubase 1 standard .!!!

cheers.
Firstly, lots of people (including Avid) are saying how much better HD Native sounds. Secondly, no one (not even Avid) is talking about 64bit audio processing, rather 64bit addressing in the CPU - the two are totally different and separate. Pro Tools could provide 64bit audio processing within the current 32bit application.
Old 14th September 2011
  #97
Gear Maniac
 

Last I heard, PT8LE, PT8Mpowered and PT9 are all 32bit apps for audio. ALL three run a 64bit floating point audio summing bus - yes, that's what I've been told by people who are at the heart of the matter.
PT TDM architecture is 48bit fixed.
PT HD Native card, uses the PT9 native code, with a 64 bit floating point summing bus, again, in a 32bit app. The low latency monitoring mixer is run on a FPGA on the PCIe card giving it super fast round trips when tracking in that mode.
Lots of folk muddy the issue between the math of the summing bus vs the math of the app itself.
Old 14th September 2011
  #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent_in_Sydney View Post
Lots of folk muddy the issue between the math of the summing bus vs the math of the app itself.
Basically what I said above, but well put. 64bit addressing should be better explained so people don't confuse it with audio processing. I do remember reading ages ago about TDM having 48bit internal bus, didn't realise the rest were 64bit - good to know.
Old 14th September 2011
  #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
What would be the point of that? Currently TDM uses 24 bit between inserts. I don't hear many complaints... 64 bit float is already a huge overkill. 80 bit float is just silly.

This is the number of values of the various bit depths:

HTML Code:
24 bit(/32 bit float):       16777216
64 bit float:                9007199254740992
80 bit float:                18446744073709551616
If we can't hear a problem with +-16 million values, what makes you think we need 18446744073709551616 values?

As I've said many times, I dare anyone to tell the difference between a 64 and 32 bit float mix engine in a double blind test. (Easily tested with Sonar as you can choose the mix engine bit depth when exporting).

Now if PT would support VST and AU that would be a real step forward.

Alistair
You can do an even more complex test with Reaper 4. 64-bit float, 32-bit float, 39 bit integer(meant to do what the Protools TDM mixer does apparently), 24 bit integer, 16 bit integer, 12 bit integer, 8 bit integer. Project Settings.

But this kind of 'sounds better discussion' does not belong here, but in its own thread complete with ABX listening tests. Everything else is just verkakt.
Old 15th September 2011
  #100
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rectifried's Avatar
we cant just leave at verkakt..any aes news
Old 16th September 2011
  #101
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Airon's Avatar
 

That's probably where it's all going to happen.

Only a couple of weeks.
Old 16th September 2011
  #102
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kk@jamsync.com's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ggegan View Post
If that is true, then it would be bad news for Avid. There are many very large facilities that are heavily invested in TDM and the editors who work with them are going to have to deliver sessions that those facilities can play back.
We're not a large facility, but even with only three rooms, we've kept our old Accel system and added HD Native to our newer setups. I think the old systems will just be phased out because, well, stuff breaks and blows up. I didn't love giving away all those SCSI drives from my older systems, either, but when we phased out of the PT Mix era, out they went along with a couple hundred pounds of assorted cables.

Now I have PT on my MBP, on my Octo, on an old G4 (due to go away immediately) and my workhorse G5 2x2. I had to decide whether or not to update my Waves Diamond set last week and chose not to because the new version won't work with the G5 2x2. When it dies, I'll just replace with everything native. I'm not sorry to see TDM go. Not that I want my main system to die right now, but I'm certainly ready for it if it happens.

More and more, we have to be looking at session transfer among systems as just sets of files, unprocessed as well as tracks archived with effects in place.
It's really the only way to have some guarantee about archiving projects. The trade-off is that you lose the flexibility of session transfer, but you gain the reliability of freezing stems and files that can be remixed later.

I learned the hard way that opening up older sessions on a newer system is sometimes fraught with bugs. In one awful case, I was working on tracks in Spanish that replaced the original ones in English. I speak French, so I wasn't so much hampered by the fact that I didn't have a script as I was sideswiped by the fact that some of the regions imported and displayed as 1-sample-wide. Finding those suckers in the timeline when I wasn't really sure they were there was a PITA. If I had just had all the tracks as mono or stereo files with a pop at the beginning and end that lined up with TC, it would have been a piece of cake.

My only real regret is that there's not an iPad2 PT app (a very simple one). It's apparently possible that with a USB power source (like a powered USB hub) and the Apogee One I can record into Garage Band (gak), but it would be great to go on vacation with that setup, a microphone and a little Axiom, and record stuff into a junior PT version with minimal editing. And I *need* a vacation!
Old 16th September 2011
  #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by apple-q View Post
when AV was alive the mxf only had clip based gain and real time eq. no NL picture you could edit. no clip editor. no bins. the dreadfull 4GB project size limitation not even mentioned ;-)

AV was in many ways ahead of time and sadly still is.
Automated mixer & price killed AV in music production.
Old 16th September 2011
  #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
My only real regret is that there's not an iPad2 PT app (a very simple one). It's apparently possible that with a USB power source (like a powered USB hub) and the Apogee One I can record into Garage Band (gak), but it would be great to go on vacation with that setup, a microphone and a little Axiom, and record stuff into a junior PT version with minimal editing. And I *need* a vacation!
Yeah, HD Native seems to be the way to go for editorial systems. While there aren't any iPad PT versions, you can do a lot with a laptop, a Duet and either PT native or Logic. I'm even seeing a lot of laptops used for fix rigs on feature dub stages.
Old 16th September 2011
  #105
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Jeff16years's Avatar
 

DO you think this will be HD only??
Old 16th September 2011
  #106
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kk@jamsync.com's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ggegan View Post
Yeah, HD Native seems to be the way to go for editorial systems. While there aren't any iPad PT versions, you can do a lot with a laptop, a Duet and either PT native or Logic. I'm even seeing a lot of laptops used for fix rigs on feature dub stages.
Yep, I have both PT and Logic on my MBP. Great for editing and writing. I have one of those USB cooling trays so I don't get 3rd degree burns if I'm reclining!

Still, I'm beginning to love my iPad2...
Old 16th September 2011
  #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LA-2A View Post
I am sure there will be new DSP TDM hardware soon even if the macs might have 16 cores and more some day .
Yes there will. Codename (real name?) is TDMx.
Don't have the details, but it's aimed at the huge track counts in Hollywood.

Not first hand info, but extremely reliable second hand.
Old 16th September 2011
  #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vidius View Post
Yes there will. Codename (real name?) is TDMx.
Don't have the details, but it's aimed at the huge track counts in Hollywood.

Not first hand info, but extremely reliable second hand.
I heard that one card will be the same power of 4 of the current Accel cards
Old 16th September 2011
  #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vidius View Post
Yes there will. Codename (real name?) is TDMx.
Don't have the details, but it's aimed at the huge track counts in Hollywood.

Not first hand info, but extremely reliable second hand.

I always thought they would come out with new dsp cards but I assumed they would run RTAS plugs. So you would buy an HD Native card or two for your i/o and then add RTAS dsp cards UAD style.

So many plug-in companies have been slashing prices on their TDM plugs that I just assumed they new something we didn't. Other than Heat and a couple of others has anyone seen new "TDM only" plugs released this year?
Old 16th September 2011
  #110
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BIGBANGBUZZ's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ggegan View Post
Yeah, HD Native seems to be the way to go for editorial
and mixing.. For TV anyway.. I've ran very large track and buss counts, played back HD video and printed a dozen or so Stems with not a hiccup.
Old 16th September 2011
  #111
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UnderTow's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaschaP View Post
I always thought they would come out with new dsp cards but I assumed they would run RTAS plugs. So you would buy an HD Native card or two for your i/o and then add RTAS dsp cards UAD style.
That would defeat the point due to the extra latency involved in shuttling data from the CPU to the DSP cards and back. For low-latency you need all your processing to either stay in the DSP system or stay native.

Quote:
So many plug-in companies have been slashing prices on their TDM plugs that I just assumed they new something we didn't.
The market for TDM is shrinking at break-neck pace methinks. Anything up to and including a HD3 system can be replaced (and surpassed) by a HD|Native system already today and by some time next year, the vast majority of HD systems could be replaced by native systems (Maybe not an Avid system though if they keep the 192 voice limitation in HD|Native). 18 months later, there won't be a current TDM system than can't be beaten by the top native systems available then. Arbitrary limitations imposed by Avid aside of course. I am talking about the actual available processing power of native CPUs running a native DAW like Nuendo or whatever.

I would say that most DSP based solutions are already outdated. A top of the line Intel CPU gives you roughly 35 times the processing power of a UAD-Quad at a quarter of the cost. The only reason those cards still sell is strong marketing and people's willingness to believe.

SSL and Focusrite have already dropped their hardware DSP solutions and moved them to native. They wouldn't do that if they thought there was any future in DSP based systems. TDMx systems might still have a small market in studios that need very high track count but is it worth it for plugin developers to invest in that? Or is it more interesting for them to develop plugins for the relatively huge native market?

How many TDMx systems would really sell? Just look at how many HD cards are for sale on Ebay. I reckon that is only going to increase.

Alistair
Old 16th September 2011
  #112
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UnderTow's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by FullFrequency View Post
I heard that one card will be the same power of 4 of the current Accel cards
Only 4 times? The Accell cards came out something like 8 years ago. In that time native computing has become about 32 times as powerful. 4 times the power is just too little too late IMO.

Alistair
Old 16th September 2011
  #113
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Processing requirements will increase to the limit of processing capability. It's some sort of cosmic law. 20 years ago the biggest TV mixes might use at most 72 total tracks, including all the reassigns, effects returns and sweetener tracks - these days you might need twice that many tracks just for the sound FX audio tracks on some shows, and let's not even get into what has happened with feature film sound. That isn't necessarily because the projects got more complicated, we throw more at them because we can.

I doubt that today's largest HD6 systems would be able to handle even the more modest sessions of five years in the future. It's like adding lanes to a busy freeway in order to try to reduce gridlock, all you get is more lanes of bumper to bumper traffic.
Old 17th September 2011
  #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
That would defeat the point due to the extra latency involved in shuttling data from the CPU to the DSP cards and back. For low-latency you need all your processing to either stay in the DSP system or stay native.



The market for TDM is shrinking at break-neck pace methinks. Anything up to and including a HD3 system can be replaced (and surpassed) by a HD|Native system already today and by some time next year, the vast majority of HD systems could be replaced by native systems (Maybe not an Avid system though if they keep the 192 voice limitation in HD|Native). 18 months later, there won't be a current TDM system than can't be beaten by the top native systems available then. Arbitrary limitations imposed by Avid aside of course. I am talking about the actual available processing power of native CPUs running a native DAW like Nuendo or whatever.

I would say that most DSP based solutions are already outdated. A top of the line Intel CPU gives you roughly 35 times the processing power of a UAD-Quad at a quarter of the cost. The only reason those cards still sell is strong marketing and people's willingness to believe.

SSL and Focusrite have already dropped their hardware DSP solutions and moved them to native. They wouldn't do that if they thought there was any future in DSP based systems. TDMx systems might still have a small market in studios that need very high track count but is it worth it for plugin developers to invest in that? Or is it more interesting for them to develop plugins for the relatively huge native market?

How many TDMx systems would really sell? Just look at how many HD cards are for sale on Ebay. I reckon that is only going to increase.

Alistair

Well that's my point. Why would Avid bring out new dsp cards for TDM when know one is developing plug-ins for the format? They have shown over the last 10 years that they are moving in a native / prosumer direction. Until the new HD i/o's and native card came out the "HD" line has been unchanged since what 2003-4? I can't see them releasing a closed, super high end dsp based system for such a small market.

With the power of a 12 core mac, caching your audio files into ram, and dumping most of your processing needs on to DSP RTAS cards you could easily run at a buffer of 64 essentially eliminating the need for TDM's low latency architecture.
Old 17th September 2011
  #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
Only 4 times? The Accell cards came out something like 8 years ago. In that time native computing has become about 32 times as powerful. 4 times the power is just too little too late IMO.

Alistair
The source was a reliable one, the only slight spanner in the works is that it was after we'd had a few beers......

I should re-phrase my stamentent slightly however... one card would be the equivalent of an HD4.
Old 17th September 2011
  #116
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That might be interesting, considering that on raw DSP systems a (now)$100 two-year old 4-core already approached HD6 levels and the high-end i7 machines are runny easy circles around two HD7 systems or more. It's a matter of software and disk subsystems now.

I reckon in five yeas, I'd be able to run a standard TV show off one SSD drive. Then again, the whole bloody thing'll be cached in RAM anyway. Well, actually you can probably already do that, but who uses SSDs. Too small, right ? Yeah, except I mixed five episodes of 50-track sessions off one 18GB SCSI seven years ago.

For pure playback SSD disks must be pure magic.

And haven't Avid been working on RTAS v2 or something for over two years now ?
Old 17th September 2011
  #117
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If they did RTAS cards they would have the potential to sell them not only to HD native card owners but all the people running PT 9 with a third party interface.

That's a huge market.
Old 17th September 2011
  #118
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narcoman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by FullFrequency View Post
The source was a reliable one, the only slight spanner in the works is that it was after we'd had a few beers......

I should re-phrase my stamentent slightly however... one card would be the equivalent of an HD4.
I've heard MUCH higher than that BUT it won't be TDM
Old 17th September 2011
  #119
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BIGBANGBUZZ's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by narcoman View Post
I've heard MUCH higher than that BUT it won't be TDM
Good.. Hope it something that bolts on to native.. TDM no longer makes sense, I'm sure commercially for avid as well. Years ago everyone needed it... Now most people I know are all going native for TV work. I'm sure there isn't enough dub stages world wide to keep it viable.
Old 17th September 2011
  #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
That would defeat the point due to the extra latency involved in shuttling data from the CPU to the DSP cards and back. For low-latency you need all your processing to either stay in the DSP system or stay native.



The market for TDM is shrinking at break-neck pace methinks. Anything up to and including a HD3 system can be replaced (and surpassed) by a HD|Native system already today and by some time next year, the vast majority of HD systems could be replaced by native systems (Maybe not an Avid system though if they keep the 192 voice limitation in HD|Native). 18 months later, there won't be a current TDM system than can't be beaten by the top native systems available then. Arbitrary limitations imposed by Avid aside of course. I am talking about the actual available processing power of native CPUs running a native DAW like Nuendo or whatever.

I would say that most DSP based solutions are already outdated. A top of the line Intel CPU gives you roughly 35 times the processing power of a UAD-Quad at a quarter of the cost. The only reason those cards still sell is strong marketing and people's willingness to believe.

SSL and Focusrite have already dropped their hardware DSP solutions and moved them to native. They wouldn't do that if they thought there was any future in DSP based systems. TDMx systems might still have a small market in studios that need very high track count but is it worth it for plugin developers to invest in that? Or is it more interesting for them to develop plugins for the relatively huge native market?

How many TDMx systems would really sell? Just look at how many HD cards are for sale on Ebay. I reckon that is only going to increase.

Alistair
Me and you have not always seen eye to eye, however, I have to say I wholeheartedly agree with everything you said. It's also worth noting that TC Electronic have dropped Powercore too.
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