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pt hd lacking a little bottom end booty with itb mixes???
Old 12th December 2009
  #31
Running bassy/bottom-end stuff through some nice pre's helps tightening it

Also, Paul Frindle explained what happens to the bass/kicks when those pass through the several analog components - all due to the highpass filtering that becomes steeper as well as the tape low-end bump in frequency response. Add some transformers to that equation and that pretty much explains why bottom-end sounds tighter in analog domain.

When working ITB try stacking several highpass filters in the row, boosting lowend with eq and highpassing it again to sort of "emulate" what happens OTB. The main prob with ITB is DCoffset is present and some of the plugins generate it so it works against you most of the times..not to mention very linear frequency response in most of the plugins that differs a lot from analog gear frequency response unevenness that immediately does something to the signal that passes through

might be of help...
Old 12th December 2009
  #32
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get some good mics (Rode and MXL don't count) and use a rack of Neve pre-amps
Old 12th December 2009
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hipass View Post
get some good mics (Rode and MXL don't count) and use a rack of Neve pre-amps
LOL! He has that and then some!
Old 12th December 2009
  #34
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It's funny, when I listen to Serban's mixes (for example), he doesn't seem to have as much super subs and sub lows going on. And he manages to get 808's and deep kick / bass to speak in a much higher register. But it all hits.
Old 19th May 2019
  #35
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lIt's funny reading this years later. EJ wasn't wrong and folks now like the floating point Protools mixer.. In a thread about low end, one guy even advised he buy better mics lol.

Last edited by IM WHO YOU THINK; 20th May 2019 at 03:28 AM..
Old 20th May 2019
  #36
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lol...thanks for pulling this 10 year old thread up. Was surprised.

my Outboard has grown and I've grown as well. I know you are on tdm and i do think the HDX mixer is a little better and btd works as it should...but over all TDM is still great and I think you are being smart in evaluating the costs. For me it was just a matter of getting the hdx card. As I already had the interfaces and software. i still do a lot of tracking and i needed the low latency of hdx.

ej

Last edited by ejsongs; 21st May 2019 at 11:39 AM..
Old 20th May 2019
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ejsongs View Post
lol...thanks for pulling this 10 year old thread up. Was surprised.

my Outboard has grown and I've grown as well. I know you are on tdm and i do think the HDX mixer is a little better and btd works as it should...bit over all TDM is still great and I think you are being smart in evaluating the costs. For me it was just a matter of getting the hdx card. As I already had the interfaces and software. i still do a lot of tracking and i needed the low latency of hdx.

ej
I'm ready to get off the fence, I haven't used bounce to disk in the last 10 years. I know I'm due for an upgrade to my spot, but, I keep getting tempted to use a few TDM plugins and do something like what this guy is doing with my favorite outboard gear:
Old 20th May 2019
  #38
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Do not blame ITB just because you can't mix properly.
Old 20th May 2019
  #39
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IM WHO YOU THINK's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Stravinsky View Post
Do not blame ITB just because you can't mix properly.


If you pay close attention to the dates, this is an old thread that happened to be in my favorites from 10 years ago. EJ posted this before there was a floating point PT system and people argued he was wrong. (I heard what he was hearing, so I saved the thread.). If you don't hear a difference between systems. Cool. I like certain pieces of outboard gear, so I buy them. Whatever works for you, I'm happy to hear that it does. Your post seems to imply that there's a "proper" way to mix. It's an artistic endeavor, it's not exactly right/wrong or proper/improper.
Old 20th May 2019
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IM WHO YOU THINK View Post
If you pay close attention to the dates, this is an old thread that happened to be in my favorites from 10 years ago. EJ posted this before there was a floating point PT system and people argued he was wrong. (I heard what he was hearing, so I saved the thread.). If you don't hear a difference between systems. Cool. I like certain pieces of outboard gear, so I buy them. Whatever works for you, I'm happy to hear that it does. Your post seems to imply that there's a "proper" way to mix. It's an artistic endeavor, it's not exactly right/wrong or proper/improper.
I know but "Livin' La Vida Loca" was mixed entirely ITB by Charles Dye in 1999 and there was no PT HD and floating point back then.
Not exactly, I mean "proper" in the way that the mixer feels that he or her satisfied of the result.
Old 21st May 2019
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Stravinsky View Post
I know but "Livin' La Vida Loca" was mixed entirely ITB by Charles Dye in 1999 and there was no PT HD and floating point back then.
Not exactly, I mean "proper" in the way that the mixer feels that he or her satisfied of the result.
Plenty of records have been mixed on all kinds of systems, should that stop us from having a discussion of the flaws in a particular system or how one system sounds better than another?

If someone gets something from using two tools together, that he wouldn't get from either tool alone, does it imply there's something wrong with his mixing?

I have a hunch that some plugins do more detrimental things to audio than others.

I have a hunch that floating point systems are the reason ej was able to have fewer low end issues in his old Logic rig and his HDX rig, than his TDM rig.

Is that not a valid discussion to be had? Are we able to compare tools without you bringing up LaVidaLoca and suggesting problems mixing properly?
Old 21st May 2019
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IM WHO YOU THINK View Post
Plenty of records have been mixed on all kinds of systems, should that stop us from having a discussion of the flaws in a particular system or how one system sounds better than another?

If someone gets something from using two tools together, that he wouldn't get from either tool alone, does it imply there's something wrong with his mixing?

I have a hunch that some plugins do more detrimental things to audio than others.

I have a hunch that floating point systems are the reason ej was able to have fewer low end issues in his old Logic rig and his HDX rig, than his TDM rig.

Is that not a valid discussion to be had? Are we able to compare tools without you bringing up LaVidaLoca and suggesting problems mixing properly?
Chill out dude. Don't get me wrong. I didn't want to stop anyone from having a discussion. It's just my opinion.
Old 21st May 2019
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Stravinsky View Post
Chill out dude. Don't get me wrong. I didn't want to stop anyone from having a discussion. It's just my opinion.
Are you saying these systems aren't different and there's no difference?

It's odd that you'd come trolling into the discussion, with no valid point to offer, then tell me to chill out for questioning your point in what you posted.
Old 21st May 2019
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IM WHO YOU THINK View Post
Are you saying these systems aren't different and there's no difference?

It's odd that you'd come trolling into the discussion, with no valid point to offer, then tell me to chill out for questioning your point in what you posted.
When did I say that? You're delusional.
Old 21st May 2019
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Stravinsky View Post
Do not blame ITB just because you can't mix properly.
very big assumption.

ej
Old 21st May 2019
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IM WHO YOU THINK View Post
I'm ready to get off the fence, I haven't used bounce to disk in the last 10 years. I know I'm due for an upgrade to my spot, but, I keep getting tempted to use a few TDM plugins and do something like what this guy is doing with my favorite outboard gear:
love this!!!!! Gave me ideas on expanding into 500 series and do more dedicated and systematic stem mixing. Thanks for sharing.

ej
Old 21st May 2019
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IM WHO YOU THINK View Post
Your post [Stravinsky] seems to imply that there's a "proper" way to mix. It's an artistic endeavor, it's not exactly right/wrong or proper/improper.
As far as results go there are proper and improper ways to mix. The results are all there is, tools being secondary. One can't however make conclusions about tools at the same time one suggest what is true for oneself based on one's experience and one's assumptions, that these must be valid for everyone else using the same tools. Which is what one does if one happens to blame the specific tool in use for something without detailed instructions that others can repeat to achieve the same (bad) result.

There are indeed differences between tools. These are all discoverable for the most part with proper analysis and testing. The real magic, however, is in the hands and ears of the mixer/producer using their tools of choice.

Last edited by Mikael B; 4 weeks ago at 12:09 AM..
Old 21st May 2019
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikael B View Post
As far as results go there are proper and improper ways to mix. The results are all there is, tools being secondary. You can't however make conclusions about tools at the same time you suggest what is true for you, based on your experience and your assumptions, must be valid for everyone else using the same tools. Which is what one does if one happens to blame the specific tool in use for something without detailed instructions that others can repeat to achieve the same (bad) result.

There are indeed differences between tools. These are all discoverable for the most part with proper analysis and testing. The real magic, however, is in the hands and ears of the mixer/producer using their tools of choice.
There's no exact "proper and improper" in art. Yes the results are all there is, but the quality of the result is subjective, so your "proper" might be improper to me and vice versa.

Obviously, I'm speaking to my experience. That's a given. It's also true for people who I've never met (ej being one.) who have made the same observation.

EJ spoke to something that he saw as an issue from his experience with his TDM rig. (I'm assuming it was TDM since it was 10 years ago). Around that time, Digi/Avid was "floating" a white paper saying that their Fixed point system was superior to float point systems.

Since then, they've changed systems and many people find the new system/mixer to sound better than the old.

In that context, why are we now (10 years later) having a discussion of what I can't conclude without instructions for you to repeat, to achieve the same bad result. I'd have to instruct you to use an old system to judge on.

Perhaps it was a matter of gainstaging. Perhaps it was the mix of plugins being used. Perhaps today's plugins are better.

There are so many factors involved that it's difficult to pin down.

But, I know from earlier exchanges with EJ that his gear tastes tend to run parallel to mine. If he tells me he has less of an issue in HDX than he did in HD. (He also said at the start of the thread that he didnt have the same issue in his Logic rig, so that should have killed off all the "you can't mix if you hear something missing in Protools stuff.). I trust his view point until I'm able to test for myself and make a full judgement.

Also, I've had exchanges with other engineers who I'd safely guess have more major credits than most posters here. (certainly more than I do), who said the same thing. I've had things mixed by some of them just for the lesson of seeing if they'd have the same issues I did, and how they'd get beyond them, and I heard the same issues in their mixes.

I get it, what I'm saying isn't scientific, and I've offered no "proof" other than my opinion/experience, but I'm not really interested in proving anything. I'd prefer to spend the time hearing how others who have had/noticed the same issue were able to get around it.

I'm still on a TDM system, so there's obviously something I like about my system, or I'd upgrade immediately. I honestly think I work around whatever limitations it might have, and I don't know if it wouldn't be wiser for me to spend $$$ elsewhere, instead of moving to a newer protools system.

I know there are people like Serban/Scheps who can totally ignore analog gear and get results completely ITB. In my experience, I've been better off with outboard gear. I do get tempted to run out and buy the latest computer with protools native and $5k in plugins when I see others get results with it, but when I fall back to my own experienc, (and the fact that I know we live in a society where things are constantly being marketed to us), I continue to trend in the direction that I know has worked for me.

Last edited by IM WHO YOU THINK; 21st May 2019 at 08:32 PM..
Old 21st May 2019
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IM WHO YOU THINK View Post
"…why are we now (10 years later) having a discussion of what I can't conclude without instructions for you to repeat, to achieve the same bad result. I'd have to instruct you to use an old system to judge on."
You made your comment not 24 hours ago. That's why. I didn't read the early messages and these are largely irrelevant to your recently posted truism. I have no reason to not believe EJ though. That's not what I posted about.

I do of course agree with you that a collective can't decide for someone else to follow by group decree what is a proper way to mix, but any individual can have a viewpoint on what is or isn't that, even as it may be invalid for the person whose mixes or mixing methodology are being scrutinized.

Many of the discussions at Gearslutz concerning mixing are about this very topic. From this we learn ideals differ, but that there are strong common traits as well. That's why we can hopefully learn from each other's experiences.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IM WHO YOU THINK View Post
"There's no exact "proper and improper" in art. Yes the results are all there is, but the quality of the result is subjective, so your "proper" might be improper to me and vice versa."
I haven't suggested results aren't subjective. If a producer can't reach this producer's objectives with mixing in this producer's chosen way and he or she find these objectives can't be reached that way, which would include the technology, then by his or hers own definition they would be mixing improperly judging from their results. The reasons may be limited knowledge or faulty as well as inadequate tools. This was as true in 1980, 1995 as it is today.

Of course, it's perfectly acceptable to not have clear objectives, but that's also an objective. An attractive one as this would include discovery. I'm pretty sure though that one can discover, provided one cares about it, how to mix properly this way as well and by judging the results at some point (which IMHO is later).

Quote:
Originally Posted by IM WHO YOU THINK View Post
"In my experience, I've been better off with outboard gear. I do get tempted to run out and buy the latest computer with protools native and $5k in plugins when I see others get results with it, but when I fall back to my own experienc, (and the fact that I know we live in a society where things are constantly being marketed to us), I continue to trend in the direction that I know has worked for me. "
Exactly. No-one is suggesting anyone should not do it like that. I hope.

Last edited by Mikael B; 4 weeks ago at 12:13 AM..
Old 21st May 2019
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikael B View Post
You made your comment not 24 hours ago. That's why. I didn't read the early messages and these are largely irrelevant to your recently posted truism. I have no reason to not believe EJ though. That's not what I posted about.

I do of course agree with you that a collective can't decide for someone else to follow by group decree what is a proper way to mix, but any individual can have a viewpoint on what is or isn't that, even as it may be invalid for the person whose mixes or mixing methodology are being scrutinized.

Many of the discussions at Gearslutz concerning mixing are about this very topic. From this we learn ideals differ, but that there are strong common traits as well. That's why we can hopefully learn from each other's experiences.



I haven't suggested results aren't subjective. If you can't reach your objectives with mixing in your chosen way and you find you can't reach these objectives that way, which would include the technology, then by your own definition you're mixing improperly judging from your results. The reasons may be limited knowledge or faulty as well as inadequate tools. This was as true in 1980, 1995 as it is today.

Of course, it's perfectly acceptable to not have clear objectives, but that's also an objective. An attractive one as this would include discovery. I'm pretty sure though that one can discover, provided one cares about it, how to mix properly this way as well and by judging the results at some point (which IMHO is later).



Exactly. No-one is suggesting anyone should not do it like that. I hope.
If you didn't read the earlier posts, you've missed what the discussion is about. Did you just jump into an ongoing discussion and pick a single sentence from my post to question? My post was a reference to the earlier discussion. Do you just want to debate whether there can be a "proper vs improper" way to mix from one sentence in a paragraph and ignore the paragraph and discussion topic?)

I never stated that my mixes didn't acchieve a certain objective, so what gives?
Do you just want to have a philosophical debate outside the context of the discussion on whether there can be a proper/improper way to mix?

What exactly is your point? What are you seeking here?

I'm not trying to be an ass , I'd suggest you read the thread, and perhaps you'll have a view on the main topic. Folks saying stuff like "digital sums perfect" or "you can't mix properly if xyz" don't offer anything on the topic. We now know Avid was able to improve their mixer since this thread was written. If all digital was perfect, and just adding numbers, why does one mixer sound different from another version, via the same converters? Did they improve perfection, or does it prove that what was once assumed to be perfect was really just marketing?

I'm sure anyone worth his salt as an engineer can get a pro mix out of either system, that doesn't change the issue that's being discussed.

My favorite records/mixes have a certain type of low end. It's not on Charles Dye's Living Lavida Loca mix. It's not on Leslie B's ITB mix on happy.
I haven't heard it on any ITB mix. Perhaps it's doable, and I don't have the latest plugs or HDX.

But I know how it was achieved in my favorite mixes and with the exception of tape, because it's not practical for me, I've chosen a path of augmenting what's ITB with outboard gear.

I don't think that means I can't mix "properly". I don't think discussing the difference between systems is "blaming itb"

I'm here to learn, help others learn, and share ideas.
Comments like "Don't blame ITB if you can't mix properly" do nothing to help the discussion .

I struggle to achieve the desired outcome less with a 2"/SSL combo than I do ITB. Is that a sign something is wrong with me, or is it just a different set of tools?

It's all just tools.

Last edited by IM WHO YOU THINK; 22nd May 2019 at 01:37 AM..
Old 4 weeks ago
  #51
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Originally Posted by IM WHO YOU THINK View Post
Comments like "Don't blame ITB if you can't mix properly" do nothing to help the discussion .
I haven't made this suggestion, have I? Nor have I agreed with it. I simply found that you overstated your case, even if I do agree with your rebuke of the quoted statement. What you suggested concerning there not being proper or improper ways to mix does not seem reasonable to me, so I disagree. That's all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IM WHO YOU THINK View Post
I'm here to learn, help others learn, and share ideas.
So am I.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IM WHO YOU THINK View Post
It's all just tools.
Did I suggest anything different? Nope.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IM WHO YOU THINK View Post
I never stated that my mixes didn't acchieve a certain objective, so what gives?
I thought the context made it clear I didn't mean your person specifically. I'll change it to "one". Does that make my intention clearer?

I meant that EVERY SINGLE producer will encounter this. Either a method works according to the producer/mixer/engineer or it doesn't. When you achieve your objectives you are mixing properly per definition. It doesn't matter if it's a Cassette 4-track from 1987 with hiss. If a producer meets his or her own requirements, then that's what they have done. And if not, they're not doing it properly, are they? This includes the art, you see?

I'm sure more experienced mixers can (in some cases will) have an opinion on my mixing also when I have reached what I intended, but I welcome this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IM WHO YOU THINK View Post
Do you just want to have a philosophical debate outside the context of the discussion on whether there can be a proper/improper way to mix?
You made the statement just the other day in 2019, intended as useful now also for people not on decades old technology (came off that way anyway), and you didn't seem to say it as a historical remark. Just because technology has advanced doesn't make your statement true in a general sense. If you intended this to be true only for old technology, then maybe make it more clear. I didn't understand it like that.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikael B View Post
I haven't made this suggestion, have I? Nor have I agreed with it. I simply found that you overstated your case, even if I do agree with your rebuke of the quoted statement. What you suggested concerning there not being proper or improper ways to mix does not seem reasonable to me, so I disagree. That's all.


So am I.


Did I suggest anything different? Nope.


I thought the context made it clear I didn't mean your person specifically. I'll change it to "one". Does that make my intention clearer?

I meant that EVERY SINGLE producer will encounter this. Either a method works according to the producer/mixer/engineer or it doesn't. When you achieve your objectives you are mixing properly per definition. It doesn't matter if it's a Cassette 4-track from 1987 with hiss. If a producer meets his or her own requirements, then that's what they have done. And if not, they're not doing it properly, are they? This includes the art, you see?

I'm sure more experienced mixers can (in some cases will) have an opinion on my mixing also when I have reached what I intended, but I welcome this.



You made the statement just the other day in 2019, intended as useful now also for people not on decades old technology (came off that way anyway), and you didn't seem to say it as a historical remark. Just because technology has advanced doesn't make your statement true in a general sense. If you intended this to be true only for old technology, then maybe make it more clear. I didn't understand it like that.
Yeah, OK bruh.
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