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Is it time to jump off the Avid Pro Tools Train?
Old 30th October 2019
  #1
Gear Maniac
 

Is it time to jump off the Avid Pro Tools Train?

http://www.avidblogs.com/pro-tools-2019-fall/

If anyone has looked at the future release notes for Pro Tools 2019.10 (above link), is it no wonder singer-songwriters like me are perplexed at why we are still sticking with Pro Tools. I have a complete HDX, I/O, Omni, Pre, Pro Tools Ultimate rig and I am dumbfounded by the lack of production development from Avid's software team. For $399.00 a year, we can't even get Catalina compatibility with this update. All the "updates" revolve around video production and post. Not a single update will help engineers or home recording musicians like myself. Why do we stick with Avid and Pro Tools?

I know this is a rant, but I'm just about done. I'm ready to put all my stuff on ebay and get an Apogee Ensemble or UA Apollo x8p.

Anyone else feeling this way or am I the lone wolf?
Old 30th October 2019
  #2
Lives for gear
 
Jake 2.0's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by jason kalman View Post
http://www.avidblogs.com/pro-tools-2019-fall/

If anyone has looked at the future release notes for Pro Tools 2019.10 (above link), is it no wonder singer-songwriters like me are perplexed at why we are still sticking with Pro Tools. I have a complete HDX, I/O, Omni, Pre, Pro Tools Ultimate rig and I am dumbfounded by the lack of production development from Avid's software team. For $399.00 a year, we can't even get Catalina compatibility with this update. All the "updates" revolve around video production and post. Not a single update will help engineers or home recording musicians like myself. Why do we stick with Avid and Pro Tools?

I know this is a rant, but I'm just about done. I'm ready to put all my stuff on ebay and get an Apogee Ensemble or UA Apollo x8p.

Anyone else feeling this way or am I the lone wolf?

You're not alone, same boat here and many others i speak to.
Old 30th October 2019
  #3
Yep totally. The big selling point with the subscription model was (meant to be...) more frequent updates. That hasn’t happened.

Then they rolled out the Avid all access plugin deal with HEAT but only offered that to month to month subscribers, not those with a perpetual license who purchase year by year. Honestly, you have to wonder what they’re smoking
Old 30th October 2019
  #4
Lives for gear
To coincide with AES, I got an Avid mail offering me some free Foley sounds.
Its like they are rummaging through the back of their sofa to find something to give away.
I do understand that there is a lot under the hood and PT is not just for audio but its not worth it these days...i,m in until 2021 and thats the end for me.
As a hobbyist i can't justify it.
Old 30th October 2019
  #5
Lives for gear
 
mbvoxx's Avatar
I've been on Pro Tools since it was introduced and have only one issue with it. The counter numbers font size for the smaller counters needs to be adjustable to a larger size. From 3 feet away it's hard to read the time code numbers. Small thing but important in my world. Other than that I'm still fine with PT.
Old 31st October 2019
  #6
I read the update info, and it does say that there are 150 stability fixes.

Probably something they should have addressed a long time ago instead of throwing programming guys at the cloud thing, but maybe they are making progress.

At this point I have pretty much moved on to Studio One, but will keep an eye on what happens. I was pretty happy in Protools with the exception of a few things.
Old 31st October 2019
  #7
Lives for gear
bug fix list
http://avid.force.com/pkb/articles/r...-Release-Notes

Still feels like I,m paying for bug fixes though
Old 1st November 2019
  #8
2019 and 6101

If they can manage to fix the 6101 error, I'd be happy. There's is no reason for PT to be more of a CPU/GPU hog than Logic X, even with (meters-heavy-on-the-GPU plugins) hidden.

150 fixes? Wow. Every time they "fix" something, I can clearly see that it's using more CPU and iGPU or dGPU. VEP7, FCPX, and Lightroom 4 (CPU rendering only) don't hammer a full-spec 2018 Mac Mini as does Pro Tools. I've rolled back to 2018.12 and there are fewer problems. YMMV...

Last edited by jamesPDX; 1st November 2019 at 01:35 AM.. Reason: Whoops...
Old 1st November 2019
  #9
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jamesPDX View Post
I've rolled back to 2018.12 and there are fewer problems. YMMV...
Oh man...what specifically is better for you in 2018.12 vs 2019.10?
Old 1st November 2019
  #10
Lives for gear
 
BIG BUDDHA's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by jason kalman View Post
http://www.avidblogs.com/pro-tools-2019-fall/

Why do we stick with Avid and Pro Tools?
some of us dont. we use other programs. plenty of options.

Buddha
Old 1st November 2019
  #11
Lives for gear
 

OP, as a singer-songwriter, what updates to you need? What's missing that you are waiting for? Serious questions. Why do you update your system once you have it working properly?

I've been using PT10 on a 2011 Mac Mini for years and.... it just works. I've updated my monitoring, my acoustics, my guitar and synth collection... but from, say, version 8 on, there has been nothing missing from my routine of record, edit, mix, bounce.

I'd like the extended RAM use and offline bounce that come with newer versions, but besides that, I only replace things that break instead of updating things that work perfectly fine.

Curious to hear what you are hoping to get in future releases.
Old 1st November 2019
  #12
Quote:
Originally Posted by Teej View Post
Oh man...what specifically is better for you in 2018.12 vs 2019.10?
And now I'm back-pedaling... -and this is not going to be a tweet or a soundbite:

My setup: Apollo 8 with a 2018 Mac Mini, i7/3.2 GHz, 64GB RAM, 2TB flash, and a bank of SSDs on a BMD Multidock II. I'm using a Vienna Ensemble Pro Server slave PC via ethernet. No WiFi, no Chrome, FB360 plugin removed, and Avid Link is prevented from loading at startup after initial setup. And I've essentially disabled the T2 chip.

I'm A/B-ing the versions woring from a session I've completed. All of the the bounces were done, so I could safely install 2019.10 and see how the same session worked: I have a workflow for VEP v7.0.922 and my Apollo 8 where I print tracks into Pro Tools from Virtual Channels returned from the UAD Console app into Pro Tools. When I bounce, I print a few versions of a tune so that I may never have to bounce it again: Interleaved WAV at 16/48 w/limiter, 16/44.1 w/limiter, 24/44.1 w/limiter, 24/96 w/limiter, 24/96 w/limiter, 32/96 w/o limiter. Sounds like overkill, but I seriously hate mixing. I need an intern!

There are a few more CPU spikes in 2019.10 than in 2018.12 (increasing the buffer from 512 to 1024 to 2048 doesn't make much difference. Maybe it's a general PT problem that cannot be reconciled with the MacOS (Mojave), but I'd rather have the program peg all of the CPU cores evenly at 75%-90% to give PT the CPU headroom and not have these (Race to Halt, EIST, etc.) power saving states.

I was about to roll this whole thing back to 2018.12 because I own two 2018.12 perpetual licenses, so that I can have identical setups across a couple systems, and I love having the tabbed Edit and Mix windows.

And then... In 2019.10, I just used the Extract Chords from Selection -and that alone may be worth putting up with CPU spikes, the 6101 error (we'll see), persistent cloud projects long over, but that cannot be deleted, and a hard crash every now and then.

When Pro Tools is compatible with Catalina, I'd be shocked if these problems are still around, because maybe the code isn't optimized or there are numerous errors, considering how smooth Logic X is now.

UPDATE: Gahhhhh! I've uninstalled 2019.10 and went back to 2018.12 because of random audio dropouts during realtime bounces with a VSL/VEP7 slave. All buffers were maxed out (both machines have 64 GB RAM and i7 8700 6-core processors running at ~4.3 GHz... But I'm finding that even in PT 2018.12, a 24 bit 96 KHz bounce requires babysitting because you never know when there's going to be a dropout. Anybody else have this issue? Or should I just keep everything at 24/44.1? -Not having fun...

Last edited by jamesPDX; 2nd November 2019 at 03:13 AM.. Reason: Update: Nov 1...
Old 1st November 2019
  #13
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jamesPDX View Post
When Pro Tools is compatible with Catalina, I'd be shocked if these problems are still around, because maybe the code isn't optimized or there are numerous errors, considering how smooth Logic X is now.
Yeah let's hope! I'm probably skipping Catalina altogether, doesn't sound like the smoothest deployment ever and I'm usually a year or two behind anyway...

Thanks going into detail on your experience!
Old 3rd November 2019
  #14
Gear Maniac
 

Pro Tools makes it so easy for us to hate it. Always has, and it seems it always will. So many facepalms, so many inexplicable problems. There's never been an update where it finally felt like Pro Tools was running perfectly and they worked out most of the major bugs. It's just a work in progress forever.

Then as soon as I think about moving to another DAW to handle recording, I realize immediately I'll have no choice but to keep soldiering on with Pro Tools. I produce in Logic, but for recording vocals or anything else, Pro Tools is still the best. I'm an absolute freak when it comes to vocal production, and the level of detail I put into the comp and editing would be an absolute nightmare to do in any other DAW (and I've tried them all).

Everything else gets done in Logic; all the audio I record in Pro Tools gets printed out. Logic handles audio quite poorly still, imo (and I mean this in terms of the UI).

But to date, no other DAW handles audio as elegantly as Pro Tools. It's the only thing keeping me there, personally.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #15
Gear Head
 
redredstudio's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by MattyJoe View Post
Pro Tools makes it so easy for us to hate it. Always has, and it seems it always will. So many facepalms, so many inexplicable problems. There's never been an update where it finally felt like Pro Tools was running perfectly and they worked out most of the major bugs. It's just a work in progress forever.

Then as soon as I think about moving to another DAW to handle recording, I realize immediately I'll have no choice but to keep soldiering on with Pro Tools. I produce in Logic, but for recording vocals or anything else, Pro Tools is still the best. I'm an absolute freak when it comes to vocal production, and the level of detail I put into the comp and editing would be an absolute nightmare to do in any other DAW (and I've tried them all).

Everything else gets done in Logic; all the audio I record in Pro Tools gets printed out. Logic handles audio quite poorly still, imo (and I mean this in terms of the UI).

But to date, no other DAW handles audio as elegantly as Pro Tools. It's the only thing keeping me there, personally.
Agree... I say every year I’m gonna switch... but I keep coming back. I’ve spent time in every DAW. Prob my second fav would be studio one. Next Ableton because it’s the most different... but still I mix and edit so much better and more detailed in pro tools.

If pro tools added ARA l think I would stop looking at switching.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #16
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jerry123 View Post
OP, as a singer-songwriter, what updates to you need? What's missing that you are waiting for? Serious questions. Why do you update your system once you have it working properly?

I've been using PT10 on a 2011 Mac Mini for years and.... it just works. I've updated my monitoring, my acoustics, my guitar and synth collection... but from, say, version 8 on, there has been nothing missing from my routine of record, edit, mix, bounce.

I'd like the extended RAM use and offline bounce that come with newer versions, but besides that, I only replace things that break instead of updating things that work perfectly fine.

Curious to hear what you are hoping to get in future releases.
Jerry,
Apologize for not responding sooner. What updates do I need? Well really none. So that is counterintuitive to what I would've expected to say. I think the issue (if that is the right word) is I use my computer for more than just audio, so eventually, I will need to update my OS. Not right away, but every 3 years or so. Once I update, which I have no desire to do for a couple of years, I will need to be up-to-date with Avid's subscription plan.

Why do I need to ever update my OS? Mostly for cybersecurity reasons. Too many hackers out there. The older your OS, the more vulnerable you are. So, once Apple stops supporting Mojave, I'll need to update. The present cost of the subscription plan is $399 a year, which is a lot when all I really need is OS compatibility. If I let my subscription lapse, when I go to update my OS, I'll be forced to pay a reinstatement fee, which I believe is around $1,000 or so. That is the jacked up part. So really, I don't need Pro Tools to do anything better, although there are minor things they need to fix, I just hate having to pay when I already paid so much already. I wish Avid would go back to their old model, which was free updates for the current version and a fee to upgrade to the latest version. If Avid would support their legacy releases with bug fixes and OS compatibility and only charge when they have a new release, that would be fine, but charging an annual fee just for bug fixes, OS compatibility and the occasional lame enhancement (changing plugins during playback is one example of a totally unnecessary upgrade) is not cool. This last update was nothing more than video production updates and bug fixes.

Thanks for the question!
Jason
Old 2 weeks ago
  #17
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by redredstudio View Post
Agree... I say every year I’m gonna switch... but I keep coming back. I’ve spent time in every DAW. Prob my second fav would be studio one. Next Ableton because it’s the most different... but still I mix and edit so much better and more detailed in pro tools.

If pro tools added ARA l think I would stop looking at switching.
Same here, as much as I want to love Logic X, Pro Tools is so much better.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #18
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MattyJoe View Post
Pro Tools makes it so easy for us to hate it. Always has, and it seems it always will. So many facepalms, so many inexplicable problems. There's never been an update where it finally felt like Pro Tools was running perfectly and they worked out most of the major bugs. It's just a work in progress forever.

Then as soon as I think about moving to another DAW to handle recording, I realize immediately I'll have no choice but to keep soldiering on with Pro Tools. I produce in Logic, but for recording vocals or anything else, Pro Tools is still the best. I'm an absolute freak when it comes to vocal production, and the level of detail I put into the comp and editing would be an absolute nightmare to do in any other DAW (and I've tried them all).

Everything else gets done in Logic; all the audio I record in Pro Tools gets printed out. Logic handles audio quite poorly still, imo (and I mean this in terms of the UI).

But to date, no other DAW handles audio as elegantly as Pro Tools. It's the only thing keeping me there, personally.
I agree with everything you said.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #19
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Teej View Post
Yeah let's hope! I'm probably skipping Catalina altogether, doesn't sound like the smoothest deployment ever and I'm usually a year or two behind anyway...

Thanks going into detail on your experience!
Same here. No need or desire to go to Catalina. I fully intend on staying a year or two behind also.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #20
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jamesPDX View Post
And now I'm back-pedaling... -and this is not going to be a tweet or a soundbite:

My setup: Apollo 8 with a 2018 Mac Mini, i7/3.2 GHz, 64GB RAM, 2TB flash, and a bank of SSDs on a BMD Multidock II. I'm using a Vienna Ensemble Pro Server slave PC via ethernet. No WiFi, no Chrome, FB360 plugin removed, and Avid Link is prevented from loading at startup after initial setup. And I've essentially disabled the T2 chip.

I'm A/B-ing the versions woring from a session I've completed. All of the the bounces were done, so I could safely install 2019.10 and see how the same session worked: I have a workflow for VEP v7.0.922 and my Apollo 8 where I print tracks into Pro Tools from Virtual Channels returned from the UAD Console app into Pro Tools. When I bounce, I print a few versions of a tune so that I may never have to bounce it again: Interleaved WAV at 16/48 w/limiter, 16/44.1 w/limiter, 24/44.1 w/limiter, 24/96 w/limiter, 24/96 w/limiter, 32/96 w/o limiter. Sounds like overkill, but I seriously hate mixing. I need an intern!

There are a few more CPU spikes in 2019.10 than in 2018.12 (increasing the buffer from 512 to 1024 to 2048 doesn't make much difference. Maybe it's a general PT problem that cannot be reconciled with the MacOS (Mojave), but I'd rather have the program peg all of the CPU cores evenly at 75%-90% to give PT the CPU headroom and not have these (Race to Halt, EIST, etc.) power saving states.

I was about to roll this whole thing back to 2018.12 because I own two 2018.12 perpetual licenses, so that I can have identical setups across a couple systems, and I love having the tabbed Edit and Mix windows.

And then... In 2019.10, I just used the Extract Chords from Selection -and that alone may be worth putting up with CPU spikes, the 6101 error (we'll see), persistent cloud projects long over, but that cannot be deleted, and a hard crash every now and then.

When Pro Tools is compatible with Catalina, I'd be shocked if these problems are still around, because maybe the code isn't optimized or there are numerous errors, considering how smooth Logic X is now.

UPDATE: Gahhhhh! I've uninstalled 2019.10 and went back to 2018.12 because of random audio dropouts during realtime bounces with a VSL/VEP7 slave. All buffers were maxed out (both machines have 64 GB RAM and i7 8700 6-core processors running at ~4.3 GHz... But I'm finding that even in PT 2018.12, a 24 bit 96 KHz bounce requires babysitting because you never know when there's going to be a dropout. Anybody else have this issue? Or should I just keep everything at 24/44.1? -Not having fun...
I'm with you. Pro Tools has never been able to use a native computers power properly. The inefficient use of a computer's cores is so frustrating!
Old 2 weeks ago
  #21
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG BUDDHA View Post
some of us dont. we use other programs. plenty of options.

Buddha
Buddha,
I hear you. I just haven't found a DAW that works as well as Pro Tools with HDX which has the lowest RTL in the industry. It's hard to switch. I do use Logic Pro X with UA's Apollo TB3 interface every now and then. Just not as smooth, DAW or audio interface wise. Latency with the Apollo is not terribly bad, but noticeable, even at the lowest buffer rate.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #22
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jamesPDX View Post
If they can manage to fix the 6101 error, I'd be happy. There's is no reason for PT to be more of a CPU/GPU hog than Logic X, even with (meters-heavy-on-the-GPU plugins) hidden.

150 fixes? Wow. Every time they "fix" something, I can clearly see that it's using more CPU and iGPU or dGPU. VEP7, FCPX, and Lightroom 4 (CPU rendering only) don't hammer a full-spec 2018 Mac Mini as does Pro Tools. I've rolled back to 2018.12 and there are fewer problems. YMMV...
Crazy but true.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #23
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Macky View Post
bug fix list
http://avid.force.com/pkb/articles/r...-Release-Notes

Still feels like I,m paying for bug fixes though
Oh yes, yes we are
Old 2 weeks ago
  #24
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by xmission View Post
I read the update info, and it does say that there are 150 stability fixes.

Probably something they should have addressed a long time ago instead of throwing programming guys at the cloud thing, but maybe they are making progress.

At this point I have pretty much moved on to Studio One, but will keep an eye on what happens. I was pretty happy in Protools with the exception of a few things.
Right, mostly bug fixes. I've never tried Studio One, Logic is my second DAW. Maybe I'll give it a go one day.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #25
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Macky View Post
To coincide with AES, I got an Avid mail offering me some free Foley sounds.
Its like they are rummaging through the back of their sofa to find something to give away.
I do understand that there is a lot under the hood and PT is not just for audio but its not worth it these days...i,m in until 2021 and thats the end for me.
As a hobbyist i can't justify it.
Same here. Once they move on from HDX and their current interfaces, I'm most likely out. I say most likely, because I have no idea what their future HDX replacement will be and what the competition will have to replace HDX. I just wish another company can get RTL down to HDX levels, which is .7 RTL. Right now the closest is Apogee's Ensemble which runs at 1.1 RTL.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #26
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
Yep totally. The big selling point with the subscription model was (meant to be...) more frequent updates. That hasn’t happened.

Then they rolled out the Avid all access plugin deal with HEAT but only offered that to month to month subscribers, not those with a perpetual license who purchase year by year. Honestly, you have to wonder what they’re smoking
Whatever they are smoking it is bad
Old 2 weeks ago
  #27
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jake 2.0 View Post
You're not alone, same boat here and many others i speak to.
Thanks Jake, feels good to not be the only one frustrated with Avid.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #28
Quote:
Originally Posted by jason kalman View Post
Right, mostly bug fixes. I've never tried Studio One, Logic is my second DAW. Maybe I'll give it a go one day.
Once I got used to it I found it to be very powerful.

I really enjoy having unlimited i/o without having to buy avid gear.

Some of the editing is really powerful.

Lot's of intuitive stuff happens, and lots of little things happen that save you time (For instance when grouping your L/R OH tracks, it automatically names the group), lots of stuff like that.

For really detailed editing, I do still prefer PT.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #29
Quote:
Originally Posted by xmission View Post
Once I got used to it I found it to be very powerful.

I really enjoy having unlimited i/o without having to buy avid gear.

Some of the editing is really powerful.

Lot's of intuitive stuff happens, and lots of little things happen that save you time (For instance when grouping your L/R OH tracks, it automatically names the group), lots of stuff like that.

For really detailed editing, I do still prefer PT.
Yeah, I'm hearing good things one Studio 1. But it's difficult to let go of the "Digidesign" workflow. I use Logic X on occasion, but there's something about it that feels "slippery" in the timeline. The fact that I can't articulate what I mean by "slippery" is troubling, but I think it has to do with some sort of background-dynamic-floating-audio-sync. But I'd forgive all that if I could get VEP Server 7 to work in Logic Exactly as it does in Pro Tools. -Totally upside down MIDI-wise from what one would expect from Avid. Here's treat from yesterday:
Attached Thumbnails
Is it time to jump off the Avid Pro Tools Train?-oh-come-.png  
Old 2 weeks ago
  #30
Quote:
Originally Posted by jason kalman View Post
Same here. Once they move on from HDX and their current interfaces, I'm most likely out. I say most likely, because I have no idea what their future HDX replacement will be and what the competition will have to replace HDX. I just wish another company can get RTL down to HDX levels, which is .7 RTL. Right now the closest is Apogee's Ensemble which runs at 1.1 RTL.
Wondering if we could do this to share useful data in determining future hardware needs:

Going forward, I think it'd be useful to list sample rates –or the shorthand for session bit rate/sample rate– when advertising RTL specs: 24/44.1, 24/48, 24/96, etc.
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