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New Pro Tools Pricing July 1 2019
Old 9th August 2019
  #601
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TexasCat's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post


The only reason Avid didn't do well in the "DIY/hobbyist market" is because they overpriced and crippled all their products. Avid are the architects of their own failures. It is all down to sheer incompetence. Even Avid agree as the consecutive firing of CEOs demonstrate. They just have no clue which direction they should be going in...

Alistair
I told myself I'd just stop posting about Avid and move on but this is the part that I find utterly bizarre. You would think they could figure this out...

I don't even think the subscription nonsense would be an issue if they would just remove the crippleware from the program.

If they would simply remove the additional buffer imposed without hardware and get rid of the 32 i/o limit they would dominate both markets. Not just for Vanilla users either. Dante shouldn't require you to buy some stupid bridge to use it. You should be able to just install a Dante Pcie card and have no limits.
Old 9th August 2019
  #602
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alrod View Post
So owning something but not really owning it is ridiculous?

[mod delete].
You do own the license, with all its terms. The fact that a license has terms doesn’t negate the fact that you own it. When you buy a copy of software or a song, you own that copy.

The word “owner” is the correct word for one who purchases the permanent rights to a license. From your wiki link a few posts back

“In the United States, Section 117 of the Copyright Act gives the owner of a particular copy of software the explicit right to use the software”

You started a semantic bicker and now here we are.

Last edited by Bender412; 9th August 2019 at 06:46 PM..
Old 9th August 2019
  #603
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Quote:
Originally Posted by newguy1 View Post
You do own the license, with all its terms. The fact that a license has terms doesn’t negate the fact that you own it. When you buy a copy of software or a song, you own that copy.

From your wiki link a few posts back

“In the United States, Section 117 of the Copyright Act gives the owner of a particular copy of software the explicit right to use the software”

You started a semantic bicker and now here we are.
Convenient of you to leave out the bit about the EULA.
Old 9th August 2019
  #604
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alrod View Post
Convenient of you to leave out the bit about the EULA.
Specific regional law doesn’t matter here. If it’s common to use the term “owner” to refer to someone who purchases a license to a copy of software, then that meaning should be understood for the purpose of this discussion and this semantic stuff is just a needless bicker.

When you buy a license you own a license, with all its conditions.
Old 9th August 2019
  #605
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Quote:
Originally Posted by newguy1 View Post
Specific regional law doesn’t matter here. If it’s common to use the term “owner” to refer to someone who purchases a license to a copy of software, then that meaning should be understood for the purpose of this discussion and this semantic stuff is just a needless bicker.

When you buy a license you own a license, with all its conditions.
With all due respect, I totally get what you are saying. I just don't agree that it is ownership. Yes, software is different because it falls under the whole IP spectrum, but still, I simply don't agree with how ownership is defined. Just my personal opinion. Call me a rebel if you will
Old 10th August 2019
  #606
Gear Maniac
 

Jezus already.
Stop bickering about "ownership".
Old 14th August 2019
  #607
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AVID means GREEDY
This is a good example of avidity.
Pro Tools is the old industry standard.
The new industry standard is called Reaper and it is a de-facto standard.
Well done to avid to make me hate Pro Tools that's the most lovely DAW - pro tools: time to go
2019.6 is ridiculous and there is no innovations since too long...
Is this really what an industry standard suppose to be like?
Old 14th August 2019
  #608
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by ayskura View Post
AVID means GREEDY
This is a good example of avidity.
Pro Tools is the old industry standard.
The new industry standard is called Reaper and it is a de-facto standard.
Well done to avid to make me hate Pro Tools that's the most lovely DAW - pro tools: time to go
2019.6 is ridiculous and there is no innovations since too long...
Is this really what an industry standard suppose to be like?
For every person that "hates" Pro Tools, another one hates Reaper. The best DAW is the one you use. Go to any DAW forum, and you quickly realize all the faults and shortcomings each one has.

As far as Reaper being the "de-facto standard", I really don't see any evidence of that. Do a lot of people use it? At $60 / $225 for a license, sure. But that doesn't make it "The" de-facto standard. That could be said of any of the other popular DAWS.

For the sake of the new seemingly unpopular PT subscription pricing, I am really rooting for these other DAW's to step up and take over. Personally, I am just not seeing it yet. I love Pro Tools for tracking and mixing. Very straight forward without all these silly "innovations" that get in the way of creativity. I don't expect a DAW to write my music or create beats, etc. for me. I prefer to do that part myself
Old 14th August 2019
  #609
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alrod View Post
For every person that "hates" Pro Tools, another one hates Reaper. The best DAW is the one you use. Go to any DAW forum, and you quickly realize all the faults and shortcomings each one has.

As far as Reaper being the "de-facto standard", I really don't see any evidence of that. Do a lot of people use it? At $60 / $225 for a license, sure. But that doesn't make it "The" de-facto standard. That could be said of any of the other popular DAWS.

For the sake of the new seemingly unpopular PT subscription pricing, I am really rooting for these other DAW's to step up and take over. Personally, I am just not seeing it yet. I love Pro Tools for tracking and mixing. Very straight forward without all these silly "innovations" that get in the way of creativity. I don't expect a DAW to write my music or create beats, etc. for me. I prefer to do that part myself
I agree about Pro Tools just working without the shiny useless innovations, but lot of these innovation like spectral manipulation, direct multitrack FLAC recording, per clip non destructive plugin etc are very useful indeed and eventually pro tools will catch up. About Reaper being the new standard it's easy to explain: It runs on all platform including Linux and Raspberry Pi, it's cheap and if a studio doesn't have it you just download it and IT WORKS, without thinking which OS, what version, Which processor or what computer. If it is a computer it runs. so before or later any studio will come across to a project made with Reaper and it will have to have it, it's only 60MB anyway and it seats there while you use Pro Tools, until you realise that Reaper is just better for everything. Then you start to use Pro Tools less and less and you keep Pro Tools there just for compatibility and "in Case" - I am not a Pro Tools hater. I love pro tools and loved all of it with Digidesign. This Avid Everywhere Policy, Licensing, and all that ugly jazz make it really hard to swallow as a program of choice of a musician and sound engineer who needs to justify it. It's my personal opinion of course
Old 14th August 2019
  #610
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alrod View Post
For every person that "hates" Pro Tools, another one hates Reaper. The best DAW is the one you use. Go to any DAW forum, and you quickly realize all the faults and shortcomings each one has.

As far as Reaper being the "de-facto standard", I really don't see any evidence of that. Do a lot of people use it? At $60 / $225 for a license, sure. But that doesn't make it "The" de-facto standard. That could be said of any of the other popular DAWS.

For the sake of the new seemingly unpopular PT subscription pricing, I am really rooting for these other DAW's to step up and take over. Personally, I am just not seeing it yet. I love Pro Tools for tracking and mixing. Very straight forward without all these silly "innovations" that get in the way of creativity. I don't expect a DAW to write my music or create beats, etc. for me. I prefer to do that part myself
I,m no Avid lover but i like PT.
I was thinking about how the brand name AVID is entrenched (especially in the Movie biz). A bit like how the brand name HOOVER became the de-facto name for a vacuum cleaner. Maybe DYSON will replace that though

As you say, there does not seem to be a brand name on the horizon to replace the AVID brand. I dont see a Dyson on the horizon.
Old 14th August 2019
  #611
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ayskura View Post
I agree about Pro Tools just working without the shiny useless innovations, but lot of these innovation like spectral manipulation, direct multitrack FLAC recording, per clip non destructive plugin etc are very useful indeed and eventually pro tools will catch up. About Reaper being the new standard it's easy to explain: It runs on all platform including Linux and Raspberry Pi, it's cheap and if a studio doesn't have it you just download it and IT WORKS, without thinking which OS, what version, Which processor or what computer. If it is a computer it runs. so before or later any studio will come across to a project made with Reaper and it will have to have it, it's only 60MB anyway and it seats there while you use Pro Tools, until you realise that Reaper is just better for everything. Then you start to use Pro Tools less and less and you keep Pro Tools there just for compatibility and "in Case" - I am not a Pro Tools hater. I love pro tools and loved all of it with Digidesign. This Avid Everywhere Policy, Licensing, and all that ugly jazz make it really hard to swallow as a program of choice of a musician and sound engineer who needs to justify it. It's my personal opinion of course
I have tried Reaper. Much like Studio One, I tried really hard to like it but I just didn't like the workflow. The innovations you listed for Reaper are nice I'm sure , but I really don't need them in my DAW. For what I use a DAW for I didn't find Reaper to be "better" at anything. As good as? At some things yes, but better? No.

What attracts me to Pro Tools is its simplicity. Again, the best DAW is the one you use.
Old 14th August 2019
  #612
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Macky View Post
I,m no Avid lover but i like PT.
I was thinking about how the brand name AVID is entrenched (especially in the Movie biz). A bit like how the brand name HOOVER became the de-facto name for a vacuum cleaner. Maybe DYSON will replace that though

As you say, there does not seem to be a brand name on the horizon to replace the AVID brand. I dont see a Dyson on the horizon.
My thoughts exactly. I really do hope that one comes along though. If on the other hand AVID changes its mind about subscription pricing, then I will stick with Pro Tools.
Old 14th August 2019
  #613
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alrod View Post
I have tried Reaper. Much like Studio One, I tried really hard to like it but I just didn't like the workflow. The innovations you listed for Reaper are nice I'm sure , but I really don't need them in my DAW. For what I use a DAW for I didn't find Reaper to be "better" at anything. As good as? At some things yes, but better? No.

What attracts me to Pro Tools is its simplicity. Again, the best DAW is the one you use.
I agree with you 100%. and I wold use Pro Tools but lot of people I know have versions which do not work with the current OS and Paying for no other reason except a forced compatibility is a bit much...

this is the reason of people moving elsewhere.

Of course Pro Tools will stay, like tape still is around. Music doesn't change as fast as computers do.

But give it time and Reaper has all the cards to succeed as it's doing everything right while Avid is doing wrong. of course it's my view. and of course anything that works it's ok. Just sad to see such a wonderful program being decimated and treated this way. All the best
Old 14th August 2019
  #614
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alrod View Post
I have tried Reaper. Much like Studio One, I tried really hard to like it but I just didn't like the workflow. The innovations you listed for Reaper are nice I'm sure , but I really don't need them in my DAW. For what I use a DAW for I didn't find Reaper to be "better" at anything. As good as? At some things yes, but better? No.

What attracts me to Pro Tools is its simplicity. Again, the best DAW is the one you use.
Agreed-

Also ever so often I build my big template, populate it with the same plugins (VI's and all the normal, heavy cpu inserts I use) and then try to get a feel for what in-use CPU performance will be like in all the daws I have.

For my workflow, in a large session, Reaper's performance is terrible. Out of the Daws that I own, PT|U, Ableton, Logic and Studio One and Reaper, Reaper is by far the worst. It works well at low latencies for small projects, but there is no way it can handle the same load as what I regularly do in PT without going to 512 sample buffer or higher.

For my template and workflow, only Logic outperforms PT. But with logic you have to trade off not being able to keep all the routing in place, because multiple auxes across lots of tracks lead to the single core peaking issue. PT can split the load over different cores. Studio one is a decent bit worse then PT, Ableton right about the same as that, and then Reaper at the bottom of the pile.

I guess because it doesn't have any sort of dual buffer? Maybe I need to change the way it's setup or something, but I don't see any option for a hybrid/dual buffer. Great performance for small projects though.

This is on a 7980xe @4.5ghz...

Personally I'm glad that Avid put the work in on being able to change/insert/move plugins without a stop in playback before adding other features. I do want other features, but clean playback and stability will always be the bigger priority for me.
Old 14th August 2019
  #615
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ayskura View Post
I agree with you 100%. and I wold use Pro Tools but lot of people I know have versions which do not work with the current OS and Paying for no other reason except a forced compatibility is a bit much...

this is the reason of people moving elsewhere.

Of course Pro Tools will stay, like tape still is around. Music doesn't change as fast as computers do.

But give it time and Reaper has all the cards to succeed as it's doing everything right while Avid is doing wrong. of course it's my view. and of course anything that works it's ok. Just sad to see such a wonderful program being decimated and treated this way. All the best
I use Pro Tools (since version 9) on the Windows platform, and it has always been solid. The only issue I ever had was an iLok issue a few years ago. Never any issues outside of that. I only use this particular PC as a DAW. Nothing else. That being said, I have never understood issues other people were having. Maybe it's an Apple thing? I don't know. I do own an iMac, and iPad but I don't use them for recording. Well, I do use the iPad for remote features.

Like I said, I hope that I can learn to like another DAW. Hopefully one will come along :-)
Old 15th August 2019
  #616
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasCat View Post
Pro Tools is most certainly on the decline. You can believe that or not the choice is up to you. The demise will probably take another generation so go ahead and dismiss it if you'd like.
In the home studio market... you are absolutely right. Pro audio studio/Post... complete domination.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #617
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flippy Floppy View Post
In the home studio market... you are absolutely right. Pro audio studio/Post... complete domination.
Pro Audio and Home Studio are the same in 2019... Same computers, same OS same way of working.

Otherwise in Pro Studio TAPE is still king then if you want to see with this mentality...

There are more studio running Reaper in 2019 than Pro Tools

look it like this Pro Tools studios have Reaper installed. Reaper Studio not necessarily have Pro Tools Installed...

Anyway I prefer Pro Tools for production and in studio I track with it preferentially, but everywhere else I use Reaper as works better.

At the end they are tools, whatever makes your job done is the best
Old 4 weeks ago
  #618
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ayskura View Post
Pro Audio and Home Studio are the same in 2019... Same computers, same OS same way of working.
I think we have a different view on what a pro studio is. I'm talking about studios where their primary business is supplying a studio for producers and bands. Not a producer studio where it is a private, closed studio. I work at a lot of places around LA like Henson, Sunset, East West, The Village, NRG and many other studios around the world... They all run Pro Tools HDX as their main DAW. I'm not even sure if other DAW's are available. Maybe. I've never seen it though. These places are dependent on Pro Tools HDX rigs to interface with SSL and Neve consoles. And largely to be compatible. Pro Tools is the industry standard—and Avid know this, so they are capitalizing from it

Quote:
Originally Posted by ayskura View Post
Otherwise in Pro Studio TAPE is still king then if you want to see with this mentality...
Not at all really. I love recording to tape when it seems fit. Sadly most tape machines have been tuned off for months at a time and studios need advanced notice to make sure the machine works properly when they blow the dust off of it. Also tape is becoming very scarce.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ayskura View Post
There are more studio running Reaper in 2019 than Pro Tools

look it like this Pro Tools studios have Reaper installed. Reaper Studio not necessarily have Pro Tools Installed...

Anyway I prefer Pro Tools for production and in studio I track with it preferentially, but everywhere else I use Reaper as works better.
I've actually never seen Reaper before. I've read about it here though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ayskura View Post
At the end they are tools, whatever makes your job done is the best
We are 1000% on point here! I agree. You don't need Pro Tools to be "pro". IT's all about the end result. If Reaper gets you there, then you are winning.

I choose Pro Tools for compatibility and HDX has the lowest latency out of any other DAW. I just wish Avid wasn't pushing this subscription agenda.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #619
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ponzi's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flippy Floppy View Post
...Pro Tools is the industry standard—and Avid know this, so they are capitalizing from it ..
Thanks for the view into what the full time studios are using--its what I recall hearing from most of the high end engineers here. From the financial results of avid, their audio products are not doing well, so I see them as struggling rather than capitalizing.

The hardware for the high end pro tools is probably hard to manufacture at a low price in small quantities, so this may be quite expensive for them to maintain--their audio sales are half what they were 5 years ago.

Selling the software only version of pro tools--got to be very small incremental cost for each sale of that. But I could be wrong as that appears to be a market segment they are working to get more money from existing customers.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #620
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ponzi View Post
...From the financial results of avid, their audio products are not doing well, so I see them as struggling rather than capitalizing...
Yes, you are right... partially. Yes, audio studios are not buying much. All of the audio studios are quite happy with Pro Tools HDX hardware. There is really nothing to upgrade to. Even if there was something to upgrade to, they wouldn't bother anyway. Also, most studios stick with what ever pro tools version seems to be working well and do not bother upgrading to the latest and greatest software— for sometimes years. Not great for yearly sales for Avid.

Avid is trying to create yearly revenue buy forcing subscription.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #621
TJ5
Gear Nut
I'm not sure who started it for software but Adobe and Microsoft have been doing it for a while now. This article sums it up nicely when compared to other subscription services we pay for: https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...your-software/
Old 4 weeks ago
  #622
TJ5
Gear Nut
Another article on subscription services: https://www.gsb.stanford.edu/insight...ption-business
Old 4 weeks ago
  #623
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ponzi's Avatar
I replaced ms office with freeware this year to avoid subscriptions. I do use adobe photoshop elements but its a perpetual license. There are alternatives to that as well. Only thing that I could not avoid is if windows goes subscription... And I believe that Satya wants to do that at some point--I hope they will just be satisfied with selling a new windows license with new pcs as opposed to going after people like me who retain the same windows license over multiple iterations of hardware upgrades.

Last edited by ponzi; 4 weeks ago at 01:58 PM..
Old 4 weeks ago
  #624
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Here in Europe it's a different story though, Pro Tools is seen as a pyramid scheme more than a breakthrough in these days

And for pro studio I mean any studio that generates revenue (that should be the determining factor of professional as in doing a profession)

The fact that Avid is spitting on the home studios will fire back badly as its doing, pro tools first it's a joke (3 project only and online connection required and no local storage??? Joke - where are the days of Pro Tools Free???)

But yes anything that works. The clean interface of pro tools is very appealing to me, but I prefer the possibility to track in FLAC Format directly while recording live shows in tour as a small example

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flippy Floppy View Post
I think we have a different view on what a pro studio is. I'm talking about studios where their primary business is supplying a studio for producers and bands. Not a producer studio where it is a private, closed studio. I work at a lot of places around LA like Henson, Sunset, East West, The Village, NRG and many other studios around the world... They all run Pro Tools HDX as their main DAW. I'm not even sure if other DAW's are available. Maybe. I've never seen it though. These places are dependent on Pro Tools HDX rigs to interface with SSL and Neve consoles. And largely to be compatible. Pro Tools is the industry standard—and Avid know this, so they are capitalizing from it



Not at all really. I love recording to tape when it seems fit. Sadly most tape machines have been tuned off for months at a time and studios need advanced notice to make sure the machine works properly when they blow the dust off of it. Also tape is becoming very scarce.



I've actually never seen Reaper before. I've read about it here though.



We are 1000% on point here! I agree. You don't need Pro Tools to be "pro". IT's all about the end result. If Reaper gets you there, then you are winning.

I choose Pro Tools for compatibility and HDX has the lowest latency out of any other DAW. I just wish Avid wasn't pushing this subscription agenda.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #625
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ayskura View Post
Here in Europe it's a different story though, Pro Tools is seen as a pyramid scheme more than a breakthrough in these days

And for pro studio I mean any studio that generates revenue (that should be the determining factor of professional as in doing a profession)

The fact that Avid is spitting on the home studios will fire back badly as its doing, pro tools first it's a joke (3 project only and online connection required and no local storage??? Joke - where are the days of Pro Tools Free???)

But yes anything that works. The clean interface of pro tools is very appealing to me, but I prefer the possibility to track in FLAC Format directly while recording live shows in tour as a small example
Interesting. I’m not sure about the European Studio business.

I agree about Avid “spitting” on the home studio market. Huge mistake!!
Old 4 weeks ago
  #626
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ponzi's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flippy Floppy View Post
Interesting. I’m not sure about the European Studio business.

I agree about Avid “spitting” on the home studio market. Huge mistake!!
I don't think they intend to spit. Words that come to mind for me are squeeze or milk--which I do believe they hope to do.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #627
cut
Gear Addict
 
cut's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ayskura View Post
AVID means GREEDY
This is a good example of avidity.
Pro Tools is the old industry standard.
The new industry standard is called Reaper and it is a de-facto standard.
Well done to avid to make me hate Pro Tools that's the most lovely DAW - pro tools: time to go
2019.6 is ridiculous and there is no innovations since too long...
Is this really what an industry standard suppose to be like?
Reaper is hardly a standard - I work in a major network and if I suggested we move to Reaper for our audio post needs I'd be fired on the spot.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #628
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by cut View Post
Reaper is hardly a standard - I work in a major network and if I suggested we move to Reaper for our audio post needs I'd be fired on the spot.
Of course it isn't any kind of industry standard. On the other hand, if they were to fire you for making such suggestion, I would say that you are surrounded by ****ty people in your workplace. Also for many environments there is no better alternative than Pro Tools.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #629
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cut View Post
Reaper is hardly a standard - I work in a major network and if I suggested we move to Reaper for our audio post needs I'd be fired on the spot.
A major network is not a studio, if your network would pass to Reaper they would save so much in terms of money and time...
Old 4 weeks ago
  #630
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ponzi View Post
I don't think they intend to spit. Words that come to mind for me are squeeze or milk--which I do believe they hope to do.
Sqeeze or Milk what? they killed their home studio - no Pro Tools M-Power and $499 for a perpetual licence for a restricted version?
Also Ilok? also stricted computer specs in 2019?
this isn't 1999 anymore, if anyone noticed at Avid...

Compare now this to a $60 full on licence from Reaper, with all the plugins (which frankly are better than avid ones...) all unlimited tracks (not 128 instead of 384 in the Pro Pro Tools Version)
no ilok, no OS preferences, no computer or chipset preferences. It just works and works amazingly fine!

do a plugin running count on Pro Tools and do the same on Reaper, you will be shocked.

We tried this: on a system we managed to run TWO instances of L-316 with all buffer up and all those things you need to do to justify your expensive pro tools.
TWO instances...

on Reaper, with the same computer, setting and LESS latency buffer
we had around 60 instances and still keep on adding...

we chose L-316 because it's notorious heavy on CPU...

Time to wake up and smell the coffee, as a Die Hard Pro Tools fan it hurts me to admit this. I see more and more of the big producers using Reaper and in some genre it's THE standard, While Pro Tools get laugh at and with a reason.


I see producer having 400 tracks projects running on Reaper without issues...

Pro Tools just can't handle those kind of projects, no matter what hardware solution you have.

In the ERA of SSD, track limiting is just ridicolous. and BTW I had way more crashes with Pro Tools than Reaper (I think once only due to a dodgy plugin and recovered from where I left)

as I said it's time to wake up and smell the coffee
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