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C24 or Slate Raven Mti for pro tools daw controller ? Control Surfaces
Old 12th March 2018
  #1
C24 or Slate Raven Mti for pro tools daw controller ?

I’m sick of using the mouse and thinking of either a C24 or Slate mti — I’ve been offered a good deal on a C24 (Avid just put them on end of life list so about 5 years or so left in one to keep up to date) but I’d love people’s opinions on both and maybe some user feedback —— I like the Slate stuff but I also like moving faders ....... cheers
Old 29th March 2018
  #2
Personally I'd go for the Slate Raven just because I genuinely love being able to control plugins through touch. Assignable controls aren't nearly as cool as just touching the actual plugin controls in my opinion.

That said, I've admittedly never used a C24 so who knows, maybe there's some brilliant functionality in it that I'm not aware of.
Old 29th March 2018
  #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karljohnson View Post
I’m sick of using the mouse and thinking of either a C24 or Slate mti — I’ve been offered a good deal on a C24 (Avid just put them on end of life list so about 5 years or so left in one to keep up to date) but I’d love people’s opinions on both and maybe some user feedback —— I like the Slate stuff but I also like moving faders ....... cheers
I think it's apples and oranges if it's either/or. Moving touch sensitive faders or not is a pretty big difference and I think only you can figure out if that's important to you.

I would say however that there's also the newer controllers by Avid that may work as well or better for you, at the same or lower price depending on what you get. So it may be worth considering those options.
Old 29th March 2018
  #4
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by karljohnson View Post
I’m sick of using the mouse and thinking of either a C24 or Slate mti — I’ve been offered a good deal on a C24 (Avid just put them on end of life list so about 5 years or so left in one to keep up to date) but I’d love people’s opinions on both and maybe some user feedback —— I like the Slate stuff but I also like moving faders ....... cheers
The RAVEN will work along side a Avid Artist Mix, so you can have both options.

The only reason to get a C24 is if you need a monitor controller as well.
Old 29th March 2018
  #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JameyZ View Post
The RAVEN will work along side a Avid Artist Mix, so you can have both options.
That's a good point. And also then one can get the Artist Mix or s3 and instead of a Raven get DTouch and a 'regular' touch screen.

In one way I'd say that if one gets a hardware fader controller there are possibly lower demands on latency from the screen, depending on what kind of automation one's doing.
Old 30th March 2018
  #6
Thanks guys appreciated- tempted by a Raven .....
Old 30th March 2018
  #7
Lives for gear
I DETEST touch screens for "mixing". They do not in any way, shape, or form remove a majority of the annoyances of VISUAL/Screen based mixing. You still have all the issues of having to look where you need to put your hands (ZERO MUSCLE MEMORY). They have NO haptic/tactile feedback. You have to hold your arms at stupid angles. They are bad for the eyes, sometimes bad for the neck, and to me are only a slight step up from mousing around with a SINGLE faderport (or similar).

... and they still cause you to mix visually and be very screen based, even closing your eyes to move something when do you PHYSICALLY know when a fader hits somewhere? or a pot turns slow/fast etc? One of the worst things about ITB/Screen mixing is having your visual part of the brain constantly stimulated by info from the screen, it can and absolutely WILL distract from what you are hearing, and it will cause you to make decisions based on what you are seeing and not hearing. touchscreens don't fix that issue anymore than a simple midi knob box to eq/comp with, or a simple 8 fader generic controller (even though I don't recommend those over a proper controller now).

Best thing I ever did for my mixing was to get the hell away from screens for the actual mixing part (obv for editing) and 'feel' the mix, hear the music, turn real knobs, use real faders.. .there's nothing like it, music becomes a joy to shape and tweak, you connect with the music. Touchscreens do NOT do that. Anyone who says it does has never used a real console or an ICON or S6.

Sure you can pop up a plug + manipulate it on screen, in a strange fashion. Phuq that. GIVE me some real pots or encoders to dial in EQ and COMP with my eyes closed and my fingers feeling the way.

So yeah, I hate touchscreens and I think they are gimmicks. Slate is heavily promoting his ravens though so they come off like the 'new big thing' but the majority of real mixers will always prefer real faders and pots.


To OP > C24 is a fine controller, but I use the ICON (D-Command) which is vastly more powerful (not trying to gloat you could pick one up for the same price), 24 faders... this addresses the issue of assigned encoders (mostly) by having the dedicated compression and EQ sections (muscle memory) extremely flexible custom faders, VCA spill, AND assignable plugs > faders (like making a custom LARC for a reverb). It also has actual LED gain reduction/output meters built in to the dedicated section for a real analog feel. In fact I just posted a pic of it over at a greg wells thread (unrelated to control surfaces per se)

Seen here controlling AROUSER compressor (you can see the gain reduction there on the yellow leds)



This kind of physical operation/interaction goes far beyond a touchscreen, there's very little tactile/visceral/ear empowering "Musical" mix feeling/flow to a touchscreen vs GOOD hardware. C24 would be the bare minimum of what I'd called good enough, but it does lack in some areas that ICON doesn't (even S6 lacks in some tangiable 'real mix' feeling vs ICON but also has some pros over it but costs ... £50k or something stupid! ).

Note ALL knobs on ICON are touch sensitive! this means you can simply touch them and they show a value, no need to move them (C24 doesn't have that!), and for automation it's great because it knows all about touching for touch/latch automation etc, just by holding a knob or letting go. Extremely powerful stuff that makes mixing FUN and productive, and powerful (one area where a touchscreen would be better than C24 as it can obviously track what you are touching - but Icon does it too!)

Also icon allows you to fly around a mix extremely fast, without having to 'stare' at anything, buttons, PHYSICAL buttons, knobs and faders all become second nature, they don't change position, even if you change context, they don't 'float around' on screen like a plug window. ICONS are extremely integrated with Pro Tools to the point it's a disservce to call it a mere controller, it's more like PT is the extension of the surface than the other way around. Only ICON and S6 (and possibly Nuage) can claim that. I've tried a number of controllers over the years on various DAWS, from presonus, steinberg, mackie... all those generic ones are good and much better than a mouse with just ONE finger at one time, but they pale next to PT with one of its bespoke controllers.

My slightly strong post is basically to warn 'don't get caught up in touchscreen hype'. They have serious ergonomic and physical issues, they only solve 1/3 of the 'issue' of mouse mixing, and have none of the tactile feel/feedback that makes the mix seem tangible, thus encouraging a more musical 'feeling' mix and a less visual based one. Nobody knows how good a D-Command or D-Control (or S6) is until they use one on a full mix. They can't go back to mouse, or touchscreens after that.

Part of what I really love about ICON is that once all edits are done, I have very little need to even have a monitor/screen on at all. I don't even have a screen in front of my ICON, it' in the sweetspot between monitors with PT/Screen off at a right angle like in the big studios with SSL etc. Often the screen is off anyway, icon is so intuitive and you can do almost anything from it, very in-depth things, such as advanced automation inc easy preview, snapshots, trim, and coalescing VCA or Trim automation down all from a single button press on the right (save your most used features in the user menus on the soft keys). Combined with the dedicated EQ/COMP sections, a lack of visual distraction (S6 suffers this with a mini touchscreen and waveform windows), custom faders and the power of flying around PT for literally anything you could think of (except occasional track naming which you can trigger from ICON but obv need a keyboard to type it in.. and poss look at the screen for that). Another thing is the effortless comparision/A/Bing of various tracks, using fingers on REAL buttons (bypassing of all/matching inserts/sends/mute/solo etc) without having to have your eyes open or worrying you've strayed off target like on a touch screen... and lastly the overall feeling of a physical device both for recording and mixing, is unbeatable.

Also the physical spacing around knobs, faders on ICON should not be underestimated. C24 is more crammed together and not as ergonomic, inc fader space, this feels awesome on icon (like a top analog console), things like faderport 16 AND touchscreens have faders too close together and it just feels bad to me, and many others. Also ICON is rock solid, steel panels, you can rest you arms/fingers on it and it won't creak or flex, this is important if you use it heavily as it stops gorilla arm (touchscreens are bad for that)

The C24 is a fine unit, but I do know it misses out a lot of what people rave about on ICON, though C24 is still far in advance of what most 'generic' controllers can do, at least in as easy/integrated a way, but don't rule out the ICON. It was a lot more expensive when new vs C24 (£20K+ for 24 faders and you can expand upto 40!) and also comes with a great monitor controller (XMON) that works directly from the surface. The Control 24 and C24 don't have quite that level of thing in the monitoring. And the Pres on Control 24 were bad, think they may be a bit better on C24 but why pay for them? You prob won't use half or any of the audio part of C24 but it's a big part of the price, while ICON's higher price is all about pure control (and Xmon < no pres just for monitoring and routing).

ANyway, it's up to you but I know if you look around you can find ICON for a similar price to C24 (as C24 is still officially sold by AVID and you're paying for those pre-amps!). Of course official support of ICON ceases this year, but it'll be good for years yet (at least 5 more I'd think), and if not, just do what many did with Control 24 and stick on the last version that supported it. I would and will.

I'd never give up Icon for any new DAW features. PT12HD already has about everything I need, as will PT2018 when / If I upgrade. After that I don't really care.

Do note you need HD not vanilla for ICON, not sure with C24 so obviously that can make a difference if you're only on vanilla (inc many of the extra automation features and stuff I mentioned perhaps).
Old 30th March 2018
  #8
Thanks for your great and detailed reply!
Kj
Old 30th March 2018
  #9
Gear Maniac
 

Avid will stop the support in the next years for the C24... I had the same question...and decided to use a S3 in combination with the Protools Dock...
I am used to work with physical Faders and knobs and the this combo is a great solution with great graphical feedback through the Ipad in the Dock...
The Protools Control App works great... But there are things I miss from the Control 24... The Meterbridge and the Surround Monitor Controller and the Numpad.
What i don´t miss; the Mic Pres... The quality of them is not so good in the Control 24 and the C24....

I am interested in the Raven too... Maybe i jump in with the future... A Raven Core Station with to Mtis and the Slate Control should be a great combo...
And the workflow directly in the DAW is an interesting concept...
Old 30th March 2018
  #10
Slate Pro Audio / Slate Digital
 
Steven Slate's Avatar
 

Given the fact that our studio now sits on a computer screen, making the screen a touchable control surface makes working very efficient. Add in our Batch Command system and gestures, and you have a very streamlined workflow.

On the other hand, using a hardware control surface (in my biased opinion of course) is very limiting. Plugin control is very cumbersome as you have no 1:1 knob to parameter ratio as you do with real hardware or with a touchscreen.

Here's some videos of the RAVEN in action. Hope you find a great solution be it hardware or touch!

This is an incredible video showing how powerful our GESTURES are during mixing and editing, live from NAMM:



This is our RAVEN 3.3 Launch Video:



Here's a user video that demonstrates how easy precise fader rides are when using our FINE fader mode.



Cheers,
Steven
Old 30th March 2018
  #11
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Haven't we all seen your advertising like a million times already???
Old 30th March 2018
  #12
Slate Pro Audio / Slate Digital
 
Steven Slate's Avatar
 

Hi Mathias. If I were asking about a specific product, I would welcome the designer of one of those products to chime in with their perspective, and post videos of the product in action. I would hope that Karl would agree.

Thanks very much for comments.

Cheers,
Steven
Old 30th March 2018
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Slate View Post
Hi Mathias. If I were asking about a specific product, I would welcome the designer of one of those products to chime in with their perspective, and post videos of the product in action. I would hope that Karl would agree.

Thanks very much for comments.

Cheers,
Steven
You always say that. All it is though is just marketing. You really think the guy or girl is unable to get to those videos without you posting them here?

Come on. You're fooling "nobody".

Just marketing. Hope Gearslutz' owners are getting paid handsomely.
Old 30th March 2018
  #14
Gear Maniac
 

I don t agree... I ve worked with a S6 and of course with my S3+Dock Combo... and have no problems with controlling plugins at all...
The advantage is, that with the hardware knobs, you can control parameters in a precise way...
My last test with raven wasn´t a good experience... but with the new software, it should be better...
Marketing says...no latency on the touchscreen, but there was latency and it was difficult to move a fader to a perfect point... I used the option,which moved the virtual fader slower to reach a perfect position...

On the S6 and S3 this is not necessary, cause the hardware faders are really good...

I think the raven is great addition, but won´t replace hardware faders and other controls like transport, edit functions, zoom, save and load and so on and so on...
I have a better workflow with dedicated buttons faders potis meters... than a touchscreen...


PS: The monitor controller from slate is the best...
Old 31st March 2018
  #15
Hey - thanks everybody for chiming in — I’m running pro tools native so I’m going to try a Raven MTi and see how I get on I think ..... plus the Slate everything bundle (I don’t work for Slate!) - the reverb and comps are great ......Any Easter discounts for both the CLA audio courses Steven with the bundle?
cheers
Kj
Old 31st March 2018
  #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karljohnson View Post
I’m going to try a Raven MTi and see how I get on I think .....
What happened to the two you bought in 2016?
Old 31st March 2018
  #17
Good question —- how did you know that ? Lol
I bought that and vms (which is great) of which one went in my friends studio and I never go up there —— the second stayed in the box for a few weeks due to work commitments and I stupidly sold it unused —- however my circumstances have now changed and I have much more time and a better equipped studio ........ I had the old control24 years ago and apart from the pre s and noise I got by but I thought I’d ask users opinions and I think going forward and even cost wise I’m going to try and actually use the mti (this time) —-
Old 31st March 2018
  #18
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IM WHO YOU THINK's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattiasnyc View Post
What happened to the two you bought in 2016?
The entire discussion is a promotion
Old 31st March 2018
  #19
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Personally I can't imagine anything worse than staring at a screen and sliding my finger around on it - if I used Pro Tools full time
I would definitely go for the amazing Avid S3 the integration with Pro Tools is amazing and the tactile feel of the S3 is just wonderful.

But I'm old school out these things - I come from using large desks and I like to close my eyes and feel a quality unit like the S3
under my fingers.

THe S3 is expensive but a great unit imho - if it integrated better with Cubase 9.5 I'd buy one myself - they are really fabulous units if you can afford one!
Old 2nd April 2018
  #20
Quote:
Originally Posted by karljohnson View Post
I’m sick of using the mouse and thinking of either a C24 or Slate mti — I’ve been offered a good deal on a C24 (Avid just put them on end of life list so about 5 years or so left in one to keep up to date) but I’d love people’s opinions on both and maybe some user feedback —— I like the Slate stuff but I also like moving faders ....... cheers
The main thing that I can say about the Slate MTi is that, yes, the glass gets some getting used to, but it really isn't a big one, coming from someone that designs consoles for over 30 years, it's not that bad.

One of the biggest parts, or advantages, is that the plug-in pops right in your face, you touch the knobs of the thing you are adjusting. Thats a big plus. It looks like it, and no need to map knobs.

Then you have the batch commander, which (I did the math once) if you did an 8 hour a day session for 5 days a week, over 10 years it would save you TWO YEARS of your life. How can you not love that? In reality, I would suggest it to anyone, it can even be mounted on a VISA mount, and you can still have a keyboard and a mouse if you want. As an assistants screen, it will. again. save you time.

You can set up things like bounce to disk, it will automatically consolidate, name and export each track while you go have dinner.

The videos you see, with hands flying everywhere, is absolutely true. Plus you can mix more than one fader at a time, and the ability to micro adjust a fader is great. No bank shifting every 8 channels. For the price, if you don't like it, use it as a monitor with touch.
Old 2nd April 2018
  #21
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s.d.finley's Avatar
C/24 is a great controller for PT but the monitoring part of its sucks. So do the pre-amps and the 'summing'. Last 2 are totally worthless IMNSHO. Touch screens, we have one for our new Neve Genesys Black, pretty nifty but I still prefer actual touch sensitive faders. One poster suggested touch screen and an Avid Artist controller, this might be a practical option using the best of both worlds so to speak.
Old 2nd April 2018
  #22
Guys I swear on my life I’m no part of Slate and wish I’d not put this thread up now— I have a small studio at my house in the u.k and I saw the fall in prices on the C24 has it’s just been added to Avid end of life list and was tempted to actually rebuy and use a Raven Mti this time or for the low price now a c24 — I just wanted some opinions not a war ......
If I was Steven I’d have put some promo up too - he runs a business and must be doing something right to be building a well known name and I appreciate that he comes on here and posts (and gets quite a bit of flack) —- whether I agree with him is another thing but that’s down to personal choice/opinion.
Can I ask - those using the Raven is it 100% pretty much reliable on Mac/ pro tools native as I’ve checked out some sweet water reviews and in the past people have complained about the display freezing ?
Cheers
Old 2nd April 2018
  #23
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by karljohnson View Post
Can I ask - those using the Raven is it 100% pretty much reliable on Mac/ pro tools native as I’ve checked out some sweet water reviews and in the past people have complained about the display freezing ?
Cheers
I have used it 12 hours a day for the last 3 years and the display still looks and works great.

Any graphical issues are probably do to user setup error or graphic card troubles.
Old 2nd April 2018
  #24
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deuc647's Avatar
 

C24 all the way, i like to touch faders and knobs. Pulling up a plug in and having the parameters mapped across te knobs is a god send for mixing.
Old 3rd April 2018
  #25
Here for the gear
 

I guess one could always get the Raven for the editing capabilities and the s3 for the tactile feel and ease of mixing with the faders and plugin control. BTW even on an s3 the plugin pops in right in front of you when you select it. But doing automation of a plugin parameter is not easy to do on a screen that still has latency compared to a hardware controller.
Old 18th May 2018
  #26
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ROCKER STUDIOS's Avatar
I Have a c24 for sell if anyone is interested (sorry for the shameless plug)
Old 19th May 2018
  #27
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IM WHO YOU THINK's Avatar
 

I was in the same position trying to decide. I bought a blue D Command 24. I will still try out Slate batch commands.

Now I'm curious if I should get a Raven MTI for my midi rig. Perhaps, I will just get a touch screen. I don't need multi touch, since I won't be mixing with it.
Old 13th July 2018
  #28
Here for the gear
 

Raven MTi2 issues with Windows 10?

I’m on the fence of buying an Avid S3 or Raven MTi2. I use Protools for mixing and Cubase 9.5 and Ableton Live 10 for mostly composing. I’m on Windows 10 ( 2 Xeon processors + 64gb ram). I’ve read that there are problems using Raven on Windows especially using gestures and batch control. Can anyone share knowledge or experience with this ( Windows 10 ) ? I’m upgrading from avid artist mix and control.
Old 15th July 2018
  #29
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e-are's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by ozarka776 View Post
I’m on the fence of buying an Avid S3 or Raven MTi2. I use Protools for mixing and Cubase 9.5 and Ableton Live 10 for mostly composing. I’m on Windows 10 ( 2 Xeon processors + 64gb ram). I’ve read that there are problems using Raven on Windows especially using gestures and batch control. Can anyone share knowledge or experience with this ( Windows 10 ) ? I’m upgrading from avid artist mix and control.
Imo, moving from the Artist Mix and control to a Raven is NOT an upgrade. If you want a touch screen controller, maybe. I purchased a Raven about a year ago and after 2 weeks of working with support, I gave up and sent it back to Sweetwater. Multi-touch didn't work as well as I thought, latency and the fact that touching a screen wasn't the same as knobs and faders. I purchased an Avid Artist Control and couldn't be happier. The level of control over most every function in ProTools and Cubase is key for me.
Old 16th July 2018
  #30
Deleted 86c3d96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mattiasnyc View Post
Haven't we all seen your advertising like a million times already???
No reason to be rude.
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