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What happens if Waves (or others) goes out of business??
Old 4th July 2017
  #1
Gear Nut
 

Thread Starter
What happens if Waves (or others) goes out of business??

So, with all the licence protection on so many plugins, what are we to do if a 'manufacturer' goes kaput?

Any thoughts?
Old 4th July 2017
  #2
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oceantracks's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by lahatte View Post
So, with all the licence protection on so many plugins, what are we to do if a 'manufacturer' goes kaput?

Any thoughts?
This is why many people swear by hardware lol

TH
Old 4th July 2017
  #3
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by lahatte View Post
So, with all the licence protection on so many plugins, what are we to do if a 'manufacturer' goes kaput?

Any thoughts?
This has happened before (though not with a company with as many plugin/security licenses as Waves.) And it depends on what happens to the company. Two scenarios have played out:
Company gets bought out by a bigger company.
Company disappears/dissolves/goes bankrupt/partners split.

In the top case, a final license was given out and the new company promised to keep a license server running for 5 years for previous customers. After that, it was implied that they would release an unprotected version.

In the bottom case, an email was sent out saying they were closing up shop. Told everyone to make their licenses local and not to lose them. End of story. (It was suggested that one of the owners still had control of the IP and would use it one day so no unrestricted version was ever released.)

Kind of up to the whim of the company (though I believe in some countries you may have the right to sue for loss)
Old 4th July 2017
  #4
Gear Nut
 

Thread Starter
I would like to think that any company in that situation would issue a licence code that makes all their products work until the end of time, on any compatible computer, but, that may or may not require considering that during the product design and coding phases.

I certainly don't want to loose products I have paid good money for, even if it's 10 years or more from now.
Old 6th July 2017
  #5
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jwh1192's Avatar
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA ... this is the same thread as .. "Remember when this software Still Worked and it was so much better than todays crap" ..

no seriously, what will I Do when Said Company goes out of Business .. ...ummm .. lets see .... i will not use it anymore and tell anyone that wants to open a session with these plugins will need to do it in an Earlier Version ot whatever system i am running .. thats why we still have PT10 running around here .. i had to boot into OS9 and run software that would talk to a JAZ Drive last year ... ya never know .. that was pretty far outside the box though .. aand i will never do that again ...

anybody want / need a JAZ Drive ??? haha
Old 13th July 2017
  #6
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noah330's Avatar
You guys must be too young to remember Bomb Factory Erik and his reign of terror!

Not always a bad thing...
Old 13th July 2017
  #7
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Muser's Avatar
I work on the principle that it will go kaput. it's almost impossible to quantify in a reasonable manner. I have old 2000 mac laptop which can run a clutch of older tools and communicate via older interfaces.

but there's a point where even those tools specialities become available in newer forms. but then there's the same question about how long those newer forms will last. so the same problem resurfaces if you jettison old for new.

I use very few pieces of current software and I choose them partly based on how long they might persist. often based on how determined I think the developers might be. I choose hardware based on its capability because hardware has narrow windows of availability. so I take into account a certain degree of future availability based on a certain degree of ubiquity. the hardware tends to be programable so I can save my work and re task it. something which is impossible if projects are based on technology which suffers from software deprecation.
Old 14th July 2017
  #8
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Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by noah330 View Post
You guys must be too young to remember Bomb Factory Erik and his reign of terror!
a go on?!......
Old 26th July 2017
  #9
Gear Nut
I remember that story!

Seriously, when you're done with a session and archiving it, just "bounce in place" or "render" each track as a single WAV file. This way you'll have the original session with all the plugins (might open in 10 years if you're lucky), and the rendered wav files that you can open in any future DAW and get back to exactly where you left off.
Old 4th August 2017
  #10
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Back in the very early days of UAD-1 Bomb Factory Erik was kind of like Ed Roman x1000000. I remember him getting banned from the Digidesign forum (and he was a third party developer making their most popular plugs at the time).

plugins with CHARACTER
Old 5th August 2017
  #11
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jwh1192's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by noah330 View Post
You guys must be too young to remember Bomb Factory Erik and his reign of terror!

Not always a bad thing...
oh Man .. i thought i would never hear that name again !!! i had an argument with him about authorizing plugins ... not a nice person !!!
Old 5th August 2017
  #12
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SilverCrucifix's Avatar
 

It already happened with a bunch of companies. Kjaerhus for instance. And users could no longer install the products they purchased on new systems because no authorization. This whole issue is even more ridiculous when you consider that most of those authorizations get cracked anyway, and it's the customers who get screwed.
Old 5th August 2017
  #13
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dcwave's Avatar
 

use stock plugins
Old 5th August 2017
  #14
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Bob Olhsson's Avatar
 

You are screwed because the rise of criminal malware means that compatibility updates are becoming far more frequent as Apple and M.S. secure operating systems.
Old 10th August 2017
  #15
Gear Guru
 

the odds are your operating system or DAW versions will obsolete any given plug-in before bankruptcy does. I dislike the idea of subscriptions and 'renting' plug-ins, but the fact is that even if you "buy" them, you really are renting them. When the OS changes, and the DAW changes to keep up, and sooner rather than later you have to upgrade your plugs to the 'compatible' format. And major upgrades are rarely free.

So you really are 'renting' them even if you think you are buying them.


Quote:
Originally Posted by oceantracks
This is why many people swear by hardware lol

I still have my spring reverb unit I bought in 1977. My first PTHD rig that I got in 2003, I do not have one single third-party plug from that system. In fact I don't think I still have any plugs from my pre-2010 system except for the stock stuff.
Old 10th August 2017
  #16
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T_R_S's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by oceantracks View Post
This is why many people swear by hardware lol

TH
Hardware companies like New England Digital & Fairlight?

ANY company can go under. Plug-in companies get bought up like Bomb Factory and TL Labs others like RN Digital and URS just stop getting updates...
Those plugs all still work they just get frozen in time so to speak
established companies like Waves usually don't go under somebody would scoop them up
Old 10th August 2017
  #17
Gear Maniac
 

To answer the OP's question: typically what happens is that you're screwed.

This happens all the time, even for companies that don't go out of business. I recently needed to reactivate some old IK Multimedia plugins that I still use. I was told by IK that they don't support them anymore and I'm out of luck. The irony is that if I had cracked versions of the software, I would be fine.

In its general form, this is a surprisingly serious issue called "digital preservation" that people tend to ignore until it's too late. In my line of work (which is not audio related), I know of serious losses that have occurred because files were stored on things like 5 1/4" floppy disks. Good luck trying to read one of those in 2017.
Old 11th August 2017
  #18
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noah330's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by jwh1192 View Post
oh Man .. i thought i would never hear that name again !!! i had an argument with him about authorizing plugins ... not a nice person !!!
He could have been a character on South Park - and all those photoshopped memes in a pre meme era!
Old 11th August 2017
  #19
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jwh1192's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by noah330 View Post
He could have been a character on South Park - and all those photoshopped memes in a pre meme era!
LOLOLOL ... so true ...
Old 11th August 2017
  #20
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Cgbravo's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by noah330 View Post
Back in the very early days of UAD-1 Bomb Factory Erik was kind of like Ed Roman x1000000. I remember him getting banned from the Digidesign forum (and he was a third party developer making their most popular plugs at the time).

plugins with CHARACTER
Sharing that thread puts a lot of things into perspective. Users stating how close the software was to their gear in the early 2000's.
Old 11th August 2017
  #21
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T_R_S's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by andrew732 View Post
To answer the OP's question: typically what happens is that you're screwed.

This happens all the time, even for companies that don't go out of business. I recently needed to reactivate some old IK Multimedia plugins that I still use. I was told by IK that they don't support them anymore and I'm out of luck. The irony is that if I had cracked versions of the software, I would be fine.

In its general form, this is a surprisingly serious issue called "digital preservation" that people tend to ignore until it's too late. In my line of work (which is not audio related), I know of serious losses that have occurred because files were stored on things like 5 1/4" floppy disks. Good luck trying to read one of those in 2017.


Which IK plug-ins?
20 years ago there were about 10 main (or less) developers today there are dozens. Compare the number of hardware companies that have obsolete equipment with parts no longer available anymore to plug-in companies.
Don;t get me wrong I love hardware but we spend a bit of money every year just to keep that hardware working. Hardware breaks down - you need new tubes, re-capping, fixing and cleaning pots and switches, replacing bulbs etc.
Owning hardware is not free
Old 12th August 2017
  #22
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Yet another reason why hardware is a better investment.....,,,theoretically

This is something that back in the day of early hardware / software integration that was taken for an almost absolute. Eventually the software that supported your hardware, was running on a platform that would become obsolete.

We didn't expect it to last forever- just a few years. Then it was up to us to keep a computer with an old OS on hand just for a few pieces of outboard to be edited over MIDI sysex
Old 12th August 2017
  #23
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyMac View Post
Yet another reason why hardware is a better investment.....,,,theoretically

This is something that back in the day of early hardware / software integration that was taken for an almost absolute. Eventually the software that supported your hardware, was running on a platform that would become obsolete.

We didn't expect it to last forever- just a few years. Then it was up to us to keep a computer with an old OS on hand just for a few pieces of outboard to be edited over MIDI sysex
I had an artist email me the other day about a project from that interim "integration" period. He wanted to get "the multi-tracks" for a song we worked on together for possible remixing.

If his project had been somewhat older, I could have dragged out the tape deck, baked the 456, and done a transfer. But his project was done when I was using an early Mac Plus to augment my 8-track: SMPTE on track 8, MIDI controlling all the keyboards, drum machines and some sampled backup vocals. I knew it was a lost cause, but as purely mental exercise, I cataloged what it would take to actually remix those tracks.

I actually have seen the floppy disk with the vocal samples on it, and the sampler itself was still working just a few years ago. But the Mac Plus? In a landfill somewhere! The software? . Was it MOTU Performer? MasterTracks? And the floppy that the sequences were on? Not a chance. Even the hardware keyboards I used are mostly gone. Everybody came together that one time - like a party- and then went their separate ways.

It's all gone. Today if I am in doubt about survivability of plugs or software, I can print everything as audio. But back then, the whole point was to have more tracks going on than could 'fit' on your limited audio recorder. Now it is beyond retrievable. It would be like trying to have a band reunion when some of the members are dead, some are senile, some forgot how to play, and some cannot even be found.

Oh one more thing: I'd have to find a MIDI interface that could communicate off the old Mac modem/printer port. Gone gone gone.

A friend of mine has re-purposed two old Mac Plus machines as bookends on his top shelf. It's very hip-looking and not only do all the old-timers notice and appreciate, some of the young people can dig it too. However, neither machine even powers on any more, much less runs any software. They are merely dead weights - there to keep the books from sliding.


Last edited by joeq; 12th August 2017 at 07:30 AM.. Reason: case
Old 12th August 2017
  #24
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bgood's Avatar
This issue had come up a few times with remastering projects... Even when the backup media is found, trying to recreate a 1997 era PC/mac with the software and plugins is a dark art at best

Render your raw tracks and your fx to separate audio files in the highest resolution that makes sense... Label everything smartly and type up a quick session snapshot with enough info so that an aged version of you can recreate as much as possible for the robot overlords... Save all of this on a non compressed not Zipped or RARd file structure.... Then remember to transfer these archives to each new generation of storage medium that you're using
Old 12th August 2017
  #25
Quote:
Originally Posted by bgood View Post
This issue had come up a few times with remastering projects... Even when the backup media is found, trying to recreate a 1997 era PC/mac with the software and plugins is a dark art at best

Render your raw tracks and your fx to separate audio files in the highest resolution that makes sense... Label everything smartly and type up a quick session snapshot with enough info so that an aged version of you can recreate as much as possible for the robot overlords... Save all of this on a non compressed not Zipped or RARd file structure.... Then remember to transfer these archives to each new generation of storage medium that you're using
And I'll bet no more than 1 in 500 do that!
Old 12th August 2017
  #26
dzb
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dzb's Avatar
This thread is another justification to always print your tracks (&/or stems) once you reach a final mix (or even before). Also, highly recommended if you use hardware inserts, too. And, especially a requirement if you use virtual instruments/synths. It's tedious to start doing at first, but worthwhile to do and is easy once you get a consistent mix set-up for your workflow. Even tougher to do, but wise, is avoid upgrades to your DAW in the midst of working on important projects- you never know what craps out to affect compatibility between one company's next great upgrade and a 3rd party plug-in.
Old 12th August 2017
  #27
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bgood's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by climber View Post
And I'll bet no more than 1 in 500 do that!
It's a best practice thing... But, it's only worth doing if you're a pro and doing this for $$. So, in GS that's about 1 in 500
Old 12th August 2017
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lahatte View Post
So, with all the licence protection on so many plugins, what are we to do if a 'manufacturer' goes kaput?

Any thoughts?
well there is a few options,

1. keep everything on usb dongles, however, if they go bad you're stuck.

2. Keep all licences on the hard drive, but have that hard drive on a mirror array (raid 1) and swap a drive (the oldest one) every 3 years or so
Old 12th August 2017
  #29
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bgood View Post
This issue had come up a few times with remastering projects... Even when the backup media is found, trying to recreate a 1997 era PC/mac with the software and plugins is a dark art at best

Render your raw tracks and your fx to separate audio files in the highest resolution that makes sense... Label everything smartly and type up a quick session snapshot with enough info so that an aged version of you can recreate as much as possible for the robot overlords... Save all of this on a non compressed not Zipped or RARd file structure.... Then remember to transfer these archives to each new generation of storage medium that you're using
I do that for projects too, but it doesn't help for keeping the non-replaceable plugin for future projects.
Old 13th August 2017
  #30
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bgood's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiospacific2 View Post
I do that for projects too, but it doesn't help for keeping the non-replaceable plugin for future projects.
I guess you could use a computer for a given project and then put that machine in cold storage.

There's not a plug that's ever existed that truly dies... Sure, the company that made it may fold but another will come along and release something that's close if not better.

I seriously cannot think of a plugin that I used in 1995 that has a sound that I can't replicate even better with new stuff...
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