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Hollywood Strings in Logic: Does it actually work? Virtual Instrument Plugins
Old 4th August 2014
  #1
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Hollywood Strings in Logic: Does it actually work?

Thinking about Hollywood Strings Gold for my 16mb RAM i7 macmini. Does it actually work? I saw one thread in the Eastwest forum where a guy was told by the Eastwest staff to get Vienna Ensemble Pro! But the thread was from a few years back. What's the latest? Will it work?
Old 4th August 2014
  #2
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It will work but since Logic does not spread patches within a multi-timbral instance throughout the cores, and since the patches are big and take a long time to load, I strongly recommend VE Pro.

Also, you are not going to be able to use that much with only 16 GB.
Old 4th August 2014
  #3
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What's the matter with those people? Why don't they use all the cores?

How about a Vienna Symphonic Strings Special Edition? Will that work better?

The whole idea of having to buy more computers is pretty BONKERS. By saying to buy VEPro, what they are really saying is go buy more computers. Or have I misunderstood something? I don't want to score films. I would just like to play around with a string section that sounds good.

Which DAW works best with Hollywood Strings on a mac?
Old 4th August 2014
  #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jster View Post
What's the matter with those people? Why don't they use all the cores?

How about Vienna Strings Section? Will that work better?

The whole idea of having to buy more computers is pretty BONKERS.
1. Logic does spread separate instances throughout the cores, just not patches within a multitimbral instance. That is because the track as a whole goes into Live mode while the other tracks go to a higher buffer. This allows Logic to load more software instruments than other DAWS but it is not optimal for multitimbral work.

2. Yes, the VSL stuff is much less demanding of resources but it is a totally different sound and workflow than e..g Hollywood Strings. I will make no statements regarding my assessment of the two since because I work for EW nobody will see me as impartial, even though I know I can be objective.


3. Most working pros in Los Angeles running a lot of orchestral libraries do use more than 1 computer. The fact that you do not want to does not make doing so "bonkers. any more than buying a car that requires that you use high octane fuel is "bonkers."
Old 4th August 2014
  #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EastWest Lurker View Post
1. Logic does spread separate instances throughout the cores, just not patches within a multitimbral instance. That is because the track as a whole goes into Live mode while the other tracks go to a higher buffer. This allows Logic to load more software instruments than other DAWS but it is not optimal for multitimbral work.

2. Yes, the VSL stuff is much less demanding of resources but it is a totally different sound and workflow than e..g Hollywood Strings. I will make no statements regarding my assessment of the two since because I work for EW nobody will see me as impartial, even though I know I can be objective.


3. Most working pros in Los Angeles running a lot of orchestral libraries do use more than 1 computer. The fact that you do not want to does not make doing so "bonkers. any more than buying a car that requires that you use high octane fuel is "bonkers."
Thanks. My only point is that it's a euphemism. Why not just come out and say that? Get a network of machines and run it with VE Pro. But that sounds bad obviously. I had to go look and see if there was some one computer mode of VE Pro. It's as if my car won't make it up my driveway and my mechanic tells me he recommends bigger wheels when he knows full well that I would need to buy a new car for the wheels. And the Eastwest website says it works with Logic. But it fails to say that it doesn't work well with Logic. I need to dig down in the forums to find that out. I'm probably more annoyed with Apple than Eastwest for what it is worth. Anyway, thanks for the help.
Old 4th August 2014
  #6
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EastWest Lurker's Avatar
 

You still don't understand. It DOES "work well " with Logic as long as you use separate and not multi-timbral instances. The same is true with Kontakt libraries with big patches, Spectrasonics Omnisphere, etc.

And HS Silver, is less demanding than Gold, which is less demanding than Platinum and there are the LT patches which still sound great but are less demanding than those in the Powerful System folder, and you can freeze tracks, etc. and on and on.
Old 4th August 2014
  #7
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Well, you are right about that. I never understood the separate instances business. I think I always use separate instances when I, for example, put a drum plug in on a bunch of different tracks. Why do people use multi-timbral instances? What does that even mean?
Old 4th August 2014
  #8
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EastWest Lurker's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jster View Post
Well, you are right about that. I never understood the separate instances business. I think I always use separate instances when I, for example, put a drum plug in on a bunch of different tracks. Why do people use multi-timbral instances? What does that even mean?
Ah, I see. You have a lot of homework to do about using Logic Pro but let me jump start it for you.

Let us say I want to use 4 HS Violin 1 articulations: legato slur, staccato on bow, tremolo, whole step trills. There are two ways I can do this in Logic. I can create 4 software instrument channel strips, each with an instance of Play (or Kontakt or Omnisphere, etc) I then load 1 articulation in each one. If I play in the 4 parts, I will see in the CPU meter that on a quad core machine, it is spread nicely between the cores.

If however, I create only 1 software instrument channel strip multi-timbral with 4 MIDI channels and load a single instance of Play (or Kontakt or Omnisphere, etc) and I then load all 4 articulations in it assigned to MIDI channels 1-4 and play in the parts I will see that the load goes to only 1 core as it is all coming out of the same software instrument channel strip.

It is just the way Logic works. So why do people want multi-timbral? They like loading an instance and seeing all the patches in the one instance. They think (but over-rate, at least with Play and Kontakt), that adding more instances has a significant effect on their CPU and RAM usage.

But is you load the multitimbral example I just described in VE Pro, it distributes it through the cores for Logic and you get better performance when you are using a whole bunch of them.

I hope that helps.
Old 4th August 2014
  #9
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Yeah, that helps. That's kind of what I thought. Although I didn't know about them thinkiing that multi-timbral reduces the effect on CPU and RAM. So you are saying that they are just wrong about that? Or is it more complicated: good for RAM, but bad for CPU on a LogicMac?

I see how it is nice to have everything on one track, but I'm not a keyboard player anyway, so I don't need keyswitches to change articulations in real time. Suppose I pulled up 12 instances of Hollywood Gold on 12 tracks for 12 articulations (4 violins, 4 violas, 2 celli, and 2 basses). Would my imac be able to cope?
Old 4th August 2014
  #10
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Multi-timbral instances are slightly better for RAM usage (especially if you're working within a RAM constrained environment, say 8 or 16GB), but as he says can choke the CPU. To be honest, they also make mixing more fiddly, especially if you add then remove instruments from the instance after bouncing. Having said that, many people don't exercise restraint with their workflow, and tend to load effects and EQ on each track more than they would with a multi-timbral instrument, so they end up using more CPU anyway overall. Generally speaking, orchestral parts should not have independent effects thrown at them - that's not how you'd hear one in real life.

I am not sure if this is still true, but HS used to lock up Logic (and other DAWS) while loading patches, whereas Kontakt based instruments don't - also given you 'just want to mess about', HS seems like a pretty tasty outlay.

If you really want to play around with something outrageously amazing, check out Spitfire's Albion or BML Mural/Sable string collections.

Oh... and 16GB is plenty of RAM for most people.
Old 4th August 2014
  #11
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I want decent strings so that I can add them to my pop tunes. And I want to be able to work through some orchestration books (the string sections only for now). I don't like the Logic strings. They sound like a garbage disposal. So I would like something better. Thought I would buy Miroslav. Then thought I would buy EWSO Gold. Then thought I would buy Hollywood Gold. Then got worried that it wouldn't work, so this morning thought I would buy Vienna basic strings. I can get Hollywood Gold right now for about 200. I can get two Viennas right now for about the same price. Vienna looks very nice, but Hollywood looks a little more idiot proof and more "inspiring" except I don't want my machine coughing on it. I load up lots of audio with effects and various software instruments and no big problems except Logic's usual minor BS.
Old 4th August 2014
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jster View Post
Yeah, that helps. That's kind of what I thought. Although I didn't know about them thinkiing that multi-timbral reduces the effect on CPU and RAM. So you are saying that they are just wrong about that? Or is it more complicated: good for RAM, but bad for CPU on a LogicMac?

I see how it is nice to have everything on one track, but I'm not a keyboard player anyway, so I don't need keyswitches to change articulations in real time. Suppose I pulled up 12 instances of Hollywood Gold on 12 tracks for 12 articulations (4 violins, 4 violas, 2 celli, and 2 basses). Would my imac be able to cope?
Here it is on my iMac:
Attached Thumbnails
Hollywood Strings in Logic: Does it actually work?-screen-shot-2014-08-04-1.31.19-pm.jpg  
Old 4th August 2014
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EastWest Lurker View Post
Here it is on my iMac:
So you think it should work fine?

Like I say, I prefer getting HSGold. My only question is: why more guys don't switch to a bunch of instances before they go out and buy more machines and VEPro? I would figure that there would be more discussion about making a compromise/adjustment there, but I don't really see it when I read the threads started by the guys having problems..
Old 4th August 2014
  #14
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EastWest Lurker's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jster View Post
So you think it should work fine?

Like I say, I prefer getting HSGold. My only question is: why more guys don't switch to a bunch of instances before they go out and buy more machines and VEPro? I would figure that there would be more discussion about making a compromise/adjustment there, but I don't really see it when I read the threads started by the guys having problems..
Well my iMac is more powerful than your Mini and has twice as much RAM, but if you choose your patches judiciously and lay it out properly, you should be able to get a lot of use out of Gold. I would however recommend you buy an SSD that connects with either Thunderbolt of USB 3 as you will get faster loading and better voice streaming count.
Old 5th August 2014
  #15
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^^ this, and not only that but if you're mixing this in with pop music, once you have the orchestration down, bounce to audio and import into your pop track. I have some RAM hungry plugins (Sable and Albion which I mentioned, and Friedlander Violin, which gobble 2 - 3 GBs on its own) and I only have 8GB of RAM. I usually nail the piece independently, then export it to the larger track for mixing.

I don't have any experience with VEPro, but one thing I used to do wrong in Kontakt with Spitfire's offerings, was have far more articulations loaded than I needed. So I might have legato loaded with 3 or 4 articulations and pizzicato loaded in the same instance as a different instrument, but on that articulation, notice another articulation loaded I didn't need, but hogging memory. Also, you don't need every mic position for every patch - it's tempting to have all the mics on at once and mix, but you really don't need to, especially if your track is not a purely orchestral track. Again I don't know how flexible VE is for muting mics and notes you don't need or use, but if it allows that, you can easily load up a lot of great sounding instruments with large samples, without choking your machine.
Old 5th August 2014
  #16
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You could also look at libs that run a bit smoother on a mac. Cinematic Strings 2.0 or Spitfire's Mural vol 1 sound as good as HS to me, and are comparable in price. But there are disadvantages too. CS 2 runs on Kontakt Player, but is limited in its articulations. Mural requires a full version of Kontakt, and has 8 basic articulations or so; more articulations are in vol. 2, but that raises the price quite a bit. A library that runs very well on a mac, is LA Scoring Strings Lite. It runs in Kontakt Player, and has the lightest footprint of all. Its sound is however not to everyone's liking. It's dry, harsh, and sometimes squeaky and slightly out of tune. It's a lot of work to get it to sound like you want.

Summary: everything comes at a price...
Old 5th August 2014
  #17
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Looks like it will have to be Vienna!
Old 5th August 2014
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jster View Post
Looks like it will have to be Vienna!
Which Vienna libraries are you going for (and what do they cost)?
I bought some Vienna stuff many years ago, have some other stuff as well, and bought Spitfire Mural not long ago... but/and think that the best buy right bow would be to get Sable I and II - they sound brilliant and are recorded in smaller groups (which can be doubled), allowing for a larger variety in terms of ensemble size.


Old 5th August 2014
  #19
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I am just going to start with the first strings special edition and maybe one more. The Spitfire stuff 3 to 5 times more expensive as I don't even have Kontakt. You can get your feet wet with Vienna for 130EUR. I don't need everything. I just want something basic but that is of high quality and with true legato. Vienna has this reputation for being expensive, but that's because they have the biggest collection and that assumes you want the whole thing. A lot of other companies are just as expensive. Also, they look like a serious company with good service that lets you get started for less than anybody else. I like that they have a clear web site instead of a bunch of images and unserious flash presentations. That spitfire site just says to me: "Yes, we are making too much damned money. Just look at our amazing web site. Ain't it ****ing slick?" I'm kinda surprised that it turned out this way. Eastwest almost got my business, but my mini ain't big enough I guess.

You're right about the divisi considerations, but can't have everything. :(

Amazing racket this string sample business though. Another 10 years, you won't even need to be a musician. The film director will just be able to use a software wizard to insert the music. Fill in how many seconds of music and what the emotion is. lol. Seriously, you listen to those film and TV guys talk and they really seem to find a lot of their edge in having the latest sounds that nobody else has used yet. Guitar tone chasers got nothing on the film scorers. Those guys are crazed software sluts. At least that's my impression after a week of reading around. Probably the instantaneous 24/7 download possibility breaks their will power eventually. If they had buy and install 30 CDs probably wouldn't be as lucrative. But at least the guitar guys got a room full of gear that looks pretty.

Best policy is probably to wait them out. Another ten years you'll be able to pick up the whole Vienna library for 500 bucks.
Old 5th August 2014
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jster View Post
I am just going to start with the first strings special edition and maybe one more. The Spitfire stuff 3 to 5 times more expensive as I don't even have Kontakt. You can get your feet wet with Vienna for 130EUR.
Sounds like a great deal! Personally, I usually end up quite confused when I look at the Vienna SE solutions - but I don't think you can get something sounding good for 130EUR anywhere else... the cheapest entry ticket into the Spitfire Sable sounds, for instance, is this, costs £249 and requires full Kontakt.

And – I certainly agree that the legatos (and the portamentos in particular) are really important.

(BTW - where can I find that 130EUR offer... link?)
Old 5th August 2014
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nativeaudio View Post
(BTW - where can I find that 130EUR offer... link?)
Vienna Symphonic Library
Old 5th August 2014
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jster View Post
Thanks... yes, it's 130 + the price of the Vienna Key, I guess. Still confused though, because you can buy Special Edition Vol. 1 String for 130 using your link - and also SE Vol. 1 Strings PLUS for an additional 130, but if you look at this link, the special offer for what seems to be the same two products is € 535 after the € 75 savings... but I'm probably missing something. Never mind. And good luck. :-)
Old 5th August 2014
  #23
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That's a bundle made up of two volumes. My link was to a section. Bundles are bigger than volumes and volumes are bigger than sections. That's got a whole orchestra I believe.
Old 5th August 2014
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EastWest Lurker View Post
…. So why do people want multi-timbral? They like loading an instance and seeing all the patches in the one instance. They think (but over-rate, at least with Play and Kontakt), that adding more instances has a significant effect on their CPU and RAM usage.

…..
Lots of helpful info here. I just wanted to add that the main reason I like (and still use) MultiTimbral instances in Logic is because I can save and load my favourite 'multis' with one click. I have various multi-channel Kontakt setups like 'Brass Band', 'Cartoon Orchestra', 'Epic Percussion', etc. that will load a dozen or so Kontakt instruments from various libraries all in one step. Much easier than loading separate instruments into a dozen separate instances.

Of course, the workaround is to make Logic templates for all your different multi-instance setups, but I often don't know which orchestra I want to use until I'm in the middle of composing a cue.

The Multi-Timbral hit on a single CPU is pretty substantial though. When I get into trouble with that, I switch to VE Pro (running on a separate cheap PC across the room). Works pretty great… Most of the time.
Old 6th August 2014
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timtoonz View Post

Of course, the workaround is to make Logic templates for all your different multi-instance setups, but I often don't know which orchestra I want to use until I'm in the middle of composing a cue.
It would be great if one could, with one click, simply load a 'performance' into any Logic project, containing a Stack with eg. four (different) string instruments.
Old 6th August 2014
  #26
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It does not work

And it never has.

Don't believe the specs on EW's website. I guarantee you will not be able to load even a light template much less use the large instruments even with 32GB RAM+.

It has to do with the way Play uses RAM on OSX (it basically reserves double what is necessary) and the way the CPU works on Mac machines. It's a marriage made in hell.

Please note this is from someone who uses HWS networked on a PC with VEP. I've never had any problems with Play on a PC. It is currently my main string library.

That said, I cannot recommend any product from EW especially if you want samples recorded on a scoring stage and not in a rock and roll studio. There are much better and more current libraries out there that use the industry standard platform - NI Kontakt - and they work flawlessly on OSX.

Also, the tech support system at EW is a byzantine labyrinth that I can only assume was designed intentionally to deflect accountability. They have no answers and they'll hem and haw until you just give up. I use the products I have but I will never, ever buy any product from that company again.
Old 6th August 2014
  #27
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Nonsense and if you live in LA I will prove it to you if you come to my place. One proviso : after I do you come back to this thread and tell them so.
Old 6th August 2014
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EastWest Lurker View Post
Nonsense and if you live in LA I will prove it to you if you come to my place. One proviso : after I do you come back to this thread and tell them so.
I have no doubt that you can construe the word "work" in many different ways.

To the OP:

Please consider I have no dog in the fight (ie I don't work for EW or anyone but myself and I'm not involved in any way in the sample library industry except as a end user).

Please take my post purely as a public service announcement.
Old 6th August 2014
  #29
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Why am I not surprised that you won't take me up on my offer
Old 7th August 2014
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EastWest Lurker View Post
Why am I not surprised that you won't take me up on my offer
I have no idea why you're not surprised, but I do know this forum has an ignore feature.

I haven't used it until now and so far it's working way better then Play.
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