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Hollywood Strings in Logic: Does it actually work? Virtual Instrument Plugins
Old 7th August 2014
  #31
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EastWest Lurker's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ErikLA View Post
I have no idea why you're not surprised, but I do know this forum has an ignore feature.

I haven't used it until now and so far it's working way better then Play.
See folks, it is very easy on the internet to make any claims you want and not be prepared to back them up and somehow, with some kind of magical thinking, not expect to be challenged on it.

If somebody say that they prefer the sound or workflow of another library, I totally respect that.

If somebody says they prefer Kontakt based libraries, I totally respect that.

But when somebody makes a claim like Erik did that I KNOW is factually incorrect because I do it almost every day, I am going to challenge them on it. And the reason I was offered this part time gig is because I was ALREADY doing so for free when that happened to any developer because it went against my sense of fair play.

Someone who truly believed they could prove their point would have welcomed the challenge and taken me up on my offer. But that is not who this guy is, clearly.
Old 7th August 2014
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EastWest Lurker View Post
...with some kind of magical thinking...

...Someone who truly believed they could prove their point would have welcomed the challenge and taken me up on my offer. But that is not who this guy is, clearly...
So now Jay has gotten personal and in doing so has violated a number of the "terms of use" of gearslutz.com including:

1." Do not...personally insult another user."

I ask any member here:

Have you seen ANY other vendor or representative of a vendor act like Jay and resort to ad-hominem attacks? Without exception, even under withering (and usually ignorant and unfair) criticism, every other vendor I've encountered on this board has been gracious while advocating for their product.

In this case, my criticism of the product (Play) is informed and due to direct experience and comparison to a large number of other commercially available software products. My criticism of the EW tech support system is also due to direct experience.

My only motive in posting is to inform other users about my direct experience. I very rarely post on internet forums but this is something I feel very strongly about. I've purchased thousands of dollars of EW products and I will not do business with them again. If I am a user in the market for a sample library, I would want to know about the experience of current users.

It has become obvious to me that in addition to the myriad of problems with the Play software, there is a cultural problem at East West. Jay's bullying attitude tells you everything you need to know about this company. Are these the kind of people you want to do business with?
Old 7th August 2014
  #33
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I did not insult you, I called you no names. It is not a personal insult under the Gearslutz rules to criticize something that someone has written. It happens here all the time.

I pointed out that in my opinion there was an obvious conclusion to be reached by your behavior, which is that when you post a harsh opinion you do not liked to be challenged, and when challenged, you do not accept it and your follow up post proves that I think.

Believe me, had you written what you wrote even if I did not work for EW, I still would have written what I did because it merited it.
Old 7th August 2014
  #34
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gussyg2007's Avatar
I bought HWS, and when I encountered the inevitable issues with play, I was told to go buy another computer to run it on...WTF!!!!
Old 7th August 2014
  #35
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Hollywood Strings is not synonymous with Play and yet people speak about issues with Play as if they were .I rarely see complaints about Play's performance when using any of the libraries except the Hollywood Series , which ARE demanding of resources if you want to run more than a little and this is especially true of Hollywood Strings.
Old 7th August 2014
  #36
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So just for grins, I just now loaded up from the Powerful System Folder 5 of the HS legato slur + portamento patches, which are probably the most demanding in the library. This is on a 2012 iMac 3.4 i7 with 32 GB, not the most beastly computer on the planet, but pretty darned good. HS is streaming form a WD Caviar Black 7200 HD, not an SSD which would improve voice count.

Here it is in Logic Pro 10.0.7 running at a 256 buffer:
Attached Thumbnails
Hollywood Strings in Logic: Does it actually work?-screen-shot-2014-08-07-7.43.45-am.jpg  
Old 7th August 2014
  #37
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timtoonz's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by EastWest Lurker View Post
So just for grins, I just now loaded up from the Powerful System Folder 5 of the HS legato slur + portamento patches, which are probably the most demanding in the library. This is on a 2012 iMac 3.4 i7 with 32 GB, not the most beastly computer on the planet, but pretty darned good. HS is streaming form a WD Caviar Black 7200 HD, not an SSD which would improve voice count.

Here it is in Logic Pro 10.0.7 running at a 256 buffer:
I notice your CPU load looks fairly 'spread out' (and low) in that screen grab. Is that with separate PLAY instances, or one multi-timbral instance?

My 2.4 ghz 8-core Mac Pro 5,1 (2010) chokes pretty easily with stuff like that. Wish I'd gone for the higher clock speed, but it was just supposed to be an 'interim' machine for me while I waited for the new MacPros to arrive. (Little did I know they'd be so ill-suited to my current studio needs… But that's another story entirely!)
Old 8th August 2014
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timtoonz View Post
I notice your CPU load looks fairly 'spread out' (and low) in that screen grab. Is that with separate PLAY instances, or one multi-timbral instance?

My 2.4 ghz 8-core Mac Pro 5,1 (2010) chokes pretty easily with stuff like that. Wish I'd gone for the higher clock speed, but it was just supposed to be an 'interim' machine for me while I waited for the new MacPros to arrive. (Little did I know they'd be so ill-suited to my current studio needs… But that's another story entirely!)
Yes, separate instances. As you probably know, Logic Pro is not a multi-timbral friendly app.
Old 8th August 2014
  #39
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Zoolook's Avatar
This tells you everything that's wrong with HWS.



I don't actually agree with him that LASS sounds 'about the same', it doesn't IMO but the criticisms he makes are still valid. Spitfire's Albion and certainly Mural sound far better than LASS - and even HWSS - and don't suffer from the bugs and DAW lock ups.

The biggest issues are the load times and subsequent system lock up, and the fact that some articulations don't work unless you 'enable' them after loading.

Jump to 5:55 or so to see the DAW lock out when patches load.
Old 8th August 2014
  #40
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Daniel has had problems with HS in that video that are:
a) Since improved in subsequent versions.
b) Due to specifics of his rig.

But yes, HS is perhaps the most resource hungry of libraries and the load times from an HD are long,but much better with SSDs.
Old 8th August 2014
  #41
I'm using Hollwood Strings Diamond on a Mac Pro 3.1 on Logic 10.07 with an SSD drive. I have used it multi timbrally and it works. But what Jay suggests certainly seems to be easier on the computer.
Old 8th August 2014
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EastWest Lurker View Post
Yes, separate instances. As you probably know, Logic Pro is not a multi-timbral friendly app.
Yup, thanks. Just wanted to confirm. I've gotta stop trying to live the multi-timbral dream that I got so used to back in the MIDI days.
Old 9th August 2014
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timtoonz View Post
Yup, thanks. Just wanted to confirm. I've gotta stop trying to live the multi-timbral dream that I got so used to back in the MIDI days.

Well if you DO want to work that way, Vienna Ensemble Pro is your friend.
Old 9th August 2014
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ErikLA View Post
And it never has.

Don't believe the specs on EW's website. I guarantee you will not be able to load even a light template much less use the large instruments even with 32GB RAM+.

It has to do with the way Play uses RAM on OSX (it basically reserves double what is necessary) and the way the CPU works on Mac machines. It's a marriage made in hell.

Please note this is from someone who uses HWS networked on a PC with VEP. I've never had any problems with Play on a PC. It is currently my main string library.

That said, I cannot recommend any product from EW especially if you want samples recorded on a scoring stage and not in a rock and roll studio. There are much better and more current libraries out there that use the industry standard platform - NI Kontakt - and they work flawlessly on OSX.

Also, the tech support system at EW is a byzantine labyrinth that I can only assume was designed intentionally to deflect accountability. They have no answers and they'll hem and haw until you just give up. I use the products I have but I will never, ever buy any product from that company again.
+1000...

I can't believe EW is still peddling this dumbed down, under performing, buggy piece of crippleware. Mac performance is utterly hopeless. The lag on those legato instruments is appalling.

I'm also using a PC slave for Play and HS. This is a high spec machine chock full of SSDs. Performance is poor at best compared with Kontakt. By contrast, Kontact is working so well for me in Pro Tools 11HD that I no longer need to host it in VE Pro.

I've long since given up hope that EW will release a stable version of Symphonic Choirs that works in Pro Tools. Various bugs have made it through countless versions despite being reported and acknowledged.

Play is a shoddy product, always has been and all the signs are that it always will be. I have also long since stopped investing in more Play based libraries. There are plenty of equally good sounding and very often superior products available elsewhere.

Quote:
That said, I cannot recommend any product from EW especially if you want samples recorded on a scoring stage and not in a rock and roll studio.
I don't think it sounds right for orchestral instruments either but then I'm not a fan of VSL's Silent Stage either.
Old 9th August 2014
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EastWest Lurker View Post
Well if you DO want to work that way, Vienna Ensemble Pro is your friend.
Yup - that's what I use. Though I do get stuck MIDI notes now and again, which is annoying. But for the most part, VE Pro is fantastic.
Old 9th August 2014
  #46
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Look I can argue back and forth with the Daves of the world or I can once again repeat my offer:

If you live in LA, come to my place. Try it with my slave PC. If you like, we can turn off the PC and try it on my iMac and see how far it takes us. Then you can come back and say what you experienced, pros and cons, and I will not take issue as long as you report what we both are agreeing that we are seeing at the time. And for those who cannot match it on equally powerful or even more powerful machines, then by all means send me n email with the details and let me try to get you to someone who can help you figure out why.

Is that not completely fair? If someone has had negative experiences and does not take me up on one of those options, well then it becomes rather obvious I think that the person is more interested in feeling aggrieved and/or being "right" then actually figuring out what can be expected with their system.
Old 9th August 2014
  #47
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If you pay for my flight from the UK to LA I will gladly fly over and show you how horribly unreliable, feature starved and lacking behind the competition your crapware is.

But then if we have different definitions of crap, how are we going to agree on what should be reported back to GS?

Play feature request:
Spend more money on support, making software work as advertised and promised upgrades like Play Pro.... Spend less money on Lambourginis and vanity studios.
Old 9th August 2014
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marsdy View Post
If you pay for my flight from the UK to LA I will gladly fly over and show you how horribly unreliable, feature starved and lacking behind the competition your crapware is.

But then if we have different definitions of crap, how are we going to agree on what should be reported back to GS?

Play feature request:
Spend more money on support, making software work as advertised and promised upgrades like Play Pro.... Spend less money on Lambourginis and vanity studios.
Opinion is opinion and facts are facts. If someone comes and reports back, "We ran X amount of HS patches on Jay's system at a 256 buffer with no issues" then people are free to reach whatever conclusions they reach and agree or disagree and I can have no beef with that.
Old 10th August 2014
  #49
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You want facts....

1. As I said.... Play's performance is demonstrably inferior to Kontakt by a significant margin. We all know it. Show me a composer who would prefer EW libraries running in Play over the same libraries running in Kontakt and I will show you an idiot.
2. Play has a history of reliability issues. FACT. Remember those early days of VE Pro incompatibility? I certainly do. Play just would not work with VE Pro and according to EW it was VSL's fault. Turns out it wasn't. Everybody else was playing nice with the VE Pro but not Play. Why? Because it sucked.
3. Play is dumb-downed and crippled. FACT. You can fly me over to LA if you want but that one will not be difficult to prove.
4. I really can't be bothered with this. We all know how crap Play is. FACT. Stop kidding yourself dude.
5. if you can find someone to come down to your studio and then post on GS how great Play is then I would seriously doubt his or her's credibility, even if they were the biggest composer in Hollywood.

Ooh another one:
6. EW promised Play Pro but never delivered. FACT.

Oooooh and another one....
7. Wordbuilder STILL doesn't work properly in Pro Tools. It's a complete train wreck. A demonstrable FACT. Please fix it.
Old 10th August 2014
  #50
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I think I'll start another post.

So why did Nick Phoenix and Thomas J jump ship? I'm taking a wild guess here, and I have no evidence to prove this, but was it because they knew Kontact was much better and they had access to the raw sample data?
Old 10th August 2014
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marsdy View Post
You want facts....

1. As I said.... Play's performance is demonstrably inferior to Kontakt by a significant margin. We all know it. Show me a composer who would prefer EW libraries running in Play over the same libraries running in Kontakt and I will show you an idiot.
2. Play has a history of reliability issues. FACT. Remember those early days of VE Pro incompatibility? I certainly do. Play just would not work with VE Pro and according to EW it was VSL's fault. Turns out it wasn't. Everybody else was playing nice with the VE Pro but not Play. Why? Because it sucked.
3. Play is dumb-downed and crippled. FACT. You can fly me over to LA if you want but that one will not be difficult to prove.
4. I really can't be bothered with this. We all know how crap Play is. FACT. Stop kidding yourself dude.
5. if you can find someone to come down to your studio and then post on GS how great Play is then I would seriously doubt his or her's credibility, even if they were the biggest composer in Hollywood.

Ooh another one:
6. EW promised Play Pro but never delivered. FACT.

Oooooh and another one....
7. Wordbuilder STILL doesn't work properly in Pro Tools. It's a complete train wreck. A demonstrable FACT. Please fix it.
1. Fine and I will take Logic's EXS24 over either of them.

2. True in the early days for some not for others, and fewer now than ever.

3.. Why would we fly you over? Why would your credibility be that great? Just asking.

4. Nothing can change a closed mind, that is for sure.

5. Read my response to #4.

6. Undeniably true.

7. A LOT of 3rd party stuff has issues in ProTools since it went Native. My friend is a beta tester for them and was kicked out and then reinstated for complaining of that to them. It works fine in Logic and DP.

At the end of the day however, FACT: there are tons of people, pros, part timers, and hobbyists using the Play libraries. They are not all idiots who would continue to do so if it was as horrible as you say.

But you are free to believe what you believe and even free to say it on the internet, so I have spent all the time and effort on you I care to, so I bid you farewell and wish you smooth sailing.
Old 10th August 2014
  #52
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This is now officially ridiculous... Are you employed by EW or just a fanboy? If the former then get your boss down here to justify his sub-standard wares. EXS24 over Kontakt? Seriously? That puts the credibility of your replies in this thread in some perspective.
Old 10th August 2014
  #53
Tui
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marsdy View Post
get your boss down here to justify his sub-standard wares.
That's not going to happen. EW avoids public scrutiny like Count Dracula avoids sunlight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marsdy View Post
EXS24 over Kontakt? Seriously?
In certain situations, I would say so. For a start, EXS24 is ridiculously light on the CPU. Also, for editing, I find EXS24 easier, more intuitive and "logical". Of course, it hasn't been updated for a long time and consequently is quite limited when compared with Kontakt.
Old 10th August 2014
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marsdy View Post
1. As I said.... Play's performance is demonstrably inferior to Kontakt by a significant margin. We all know it. Show me a composer who would prefer EW libraries running in Play over the same libraries running in Kontakt and I will show you an idiot.
I haven't used Play, but have heard a lot about it's interior behaviour before I did my last string library investments. So - even if performance would be equal, it should be in the interest of those who make Play to sort out why it has gotten this reputation, eg. why it works better on some rigs than on other rigs.


Quote:
You can fly me over to LA if you want but that one will not be difficult to prove.
Of course they won't, but I guess that could be a way to say that it wouldn't help most users even if a product does/would work well somewhere faraway.

I wonder of they have considered licensing the samples to a company who would make a Kontakt version of HW them.... or considered hiring someone who could do it? Wouldn't they make some extra money if they did - even if Play would improve/have improved?
Old 10th August 2014
  #55
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play is just one big cluster fvck ! there's no getting round it!.. EW know it ,Jay knows it, so many disappointed users out there (me included) they should of stuck with Kontakt, and took the piracy on the chin, but alas no they developed their own engine which is clearly inferior
Old 10th August 2014
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tui View Post
That's not going to happen. EW avoids public scrutiny like Count Dracula avoids sunlight.

In certain situations, I would say so. For a start, EXS24 is ridiculously light on the CPU. Also, for editing, I find EXS24 easier, more intuitive and "logical". Of course, it hasn't been updated for a long time and consequently is quite limited when compared with Kontakt.
A couple of years ago I would have agreed with you but Kontakt is getting so amazingly efficient. I'm can pass 5000 voices of polyphony on a 6 core Mac Pro streaming from SSDs.

I don't suppose the good Count needs to concern himself with what his customers think these days!
Old 10th August 2014
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nativeaudio View Post
I haven't used Play, but have heard a lot about it's interior behaviour before I did my last string library investments. So - even if performance would be equal, it should be in the interest of those who make Play to sort out why it has gotten this reputation, eg. why it works better on some rigs than on other rigs.


Of course they won't, but I guess that could be a way to say that it wouldn't help most users even if a product does/would work well somewhere faraway.

I wonder of they have considered licensing the samples to a company who would make a Kontakt version of HW them.... or considered hiring someone who could do it? Wouldn't they make some extra money if they did - even if Play would improve/have improved?
EW used to support NI, I still use a few instruments from EWQLSO in Kontakt. Hell would have to freeze over before EW would consider supporting Native Instruments again. I just don't see it happening even if NI came up with a system of copyright EW was happy with.
Old 10th August 2014
  #58
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I am quite happy with Play.
But then again, I don't stream 5000 voices, God forbid.
Old 11th August 2014
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coolbass View Post
I am quite happy with Play.
But then again, I don't stream 5000 voices, God forbid.
Haven't you heard of a 5,000 violin quinquinquinquinquinquinquintet?
Old 11th August 2014
  #60
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on pc play is working ok. wish load times were better but not too bad.
on a mac it worked... until i started building a big template, then play crashed. both on logic and also with VEP on the same mac as logic.
evrything with SSD drives.
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