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Logic 11 - what do you want? Virtual Instrument Plugins
Old 13th April 2014
  #91
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All you say are false things to protect Logic. Absolutely no faith in your post, credibility is loss...

Logic has not has the no audio passing thru plugin turn off feature since version 5. Logic wasn't even multi threaded yet.

Stop posting lies man, let other people post, stop protecting Logic EVERY LOGIC THREAD. At least you had help from 3 other people, but LATELY its been only you... lately, KNOCK IT OFF PLEASE!!!!

I've posted videos about Logic's crappy audio engine that you argued with me about.
Old 13th April 2014
  #92
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At least you guys seem to be on the same time zone, so the arguing can continue with realtime replies

KA

P.S. Hey hey I'm back Classictunz
Old 13th April 2014
  #93
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phas3d's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by classictunz View Post
All you say are false things to protect Logic. Absolutely no faith in your post, credibility is loss...

Logic has not has the no audio passing thru plugin turn off feature since version 5. Logic wasn't even multi threaded yet.

Stop posting lies man, let other people post, stop protect Logic EVERY LOGIC THREAD. At least you had help from 3 other people, but LATELY its been only you lately, KNOCK IT OFF PLEASE!!!!

I've posted videos about Logic's crappy audio engine that you argued with me about.
You need to read more, man. Logic has supported more than one thread since version 5 or even 4. It was as far as I can remember the first one because G4 were dual CPU at the time. Also, plug-ins have nothing to do with multi-thread.
If you don't know the basics you shouldn't call people who apparently know more than you about a particular subject liars.
Anyway I'm done with you stalking me. So welcome to my ignore list, baby. If you don't want to read the same I suggest you do the same. Now argue all you want... ALONE because I won't read your attempts of abuse. BYE!!!
Old 13th April 2014
  #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KorgAddict View Post
At least you guys seem to be on the same time zone, so the arguing can continue with realtime replies

KA

P.S. Hey hey I'm back Classictunz
Problem solved, mate. Nothing like the ignore list to deal with people who instead of trying to clarify the subjects discussed only come here to pick fights. He can now Yap all he wants without at least bothering me.

Great to see you here again, man. Now instead of me taking 60% of the threads like he says you can grab 20% for yourself heh
Old 13th April 2014
  #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phas3d View Post
Great to see you here again, man. Now instead of me taking 60% of the threads like he says you can grab 20% for yourself heh
LOL!! Taking the Logic Olympic torch from you, man. heh
Old 13th April 2014
  #96
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phas3d's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by KorgAddict View Post
LOL!! Taking the Logic Olympic torch from you, man. heh
LOL. Really appreciate it even though I make millions by just defending Logic here on GS alone!!! Like explaining things is defending A or B
Some people... hehhehheh
Old 13th April 2014
  #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phas3d View Post
LOL. Really appreciate it even though I make millions by just defending Logic here on GS alone!!! Like explaining things is defending A or B
Some people... hehhehheh
Indeed...
Old 15th April 2014
  #98
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valis's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by classictunz View Post
Logic has not has the no audio passing thru plugin turn off feature since version 5. Logic wasn't even multi threaded yet.
Phas3d is correct about Logic not processing audio when there's no data present. I recall this specifically because Cubase SX 1 & many plugins of that era had horrible issues with denormalization bugs, something which is always an issue but that era's instruction sets & pipelines made the issue quite obvious. Logic on the same hardware did not suffer from this as much, since the 'severe' form of the issue tends to present itself when there is no data present (0's) and plugins are still trying to calculate from a previous position to 0...far too recursively.

As for Logic being multi-threaded, it was indeed but 'management' of this 'feature' wasn't an obvious thing. To explain:

Logic has used an extra 'thread' to process 'live' data for quite some time (since at LEAST v5, possibly 4, I can't quite recall). "Live" data being on the 'live' buffer which works at the soundcard buffer size. This is why if you dig back into v5's manual and release notes you'll see the same PROCESS buffer (alongside a disk buffer setting that's no longer around) we have today with a few different sizes selectable. I *believe* the midi engine is also another thread (and used to only correlate an environment routing via the topmost 'nipples' to main audio engine), and the GUI was yet another 'thread'.

In v5 the 'trick' to forcing channel strips onto the second 'live' buffer was to use the i/o enabler. For PC users this was all you got, but things did progress on the Mac side each version.

With a Power Mac G5 2.5 (2 dual core G5 cpu's) you could get 1-2 cores to 'peg' with Logic V6, and some activity to show on the 3rd & 4th. A movie playing for scoring and heavy articulation setups in the environment with arrangements in the arrange page (highly nested folders, lots of automation routed through environment) all visible at once...you'd see cpu usage on cores that weren't being used for audio for sure.

And specific v7 updates even brought improvements in load balancing for Sculpture and EXS24...which is easy to reference in release notes so I'll save time and let any willing debater look that up.

Now it's true that before version 7 Logic wouldn't spread the process buffer out at ALL (thus Emagic/Apple never making claims to be 'fully multithreaded'), and before v8 it wouldn't support more than 4 cores. There's been frequent memory ceilings too (1GB in v5.5.x, 3.3GB more recently...before 64bit support and the memory 'warnings' in the 32bit version...) So noone said it's history is spotless, but phas3d was correct in his statements...

(btw sorry I didn't get this post in earlier, I had intended to before the nonsense that ensued after but have been busy...)
Old 15th April 2014
  #99
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You brought more insight into the discussion as usual, Valis. I should have elaborated a little more but with the constant attacks it's hard to keep a clear mind. The I/O Helper plug-in first appeared in Logic version 5.2 and did in fact allow plug-ins from a track to be loaded onto a second thread. It's true that it's not true multi-thread but it was a first step in that direction.
Old 15th April 2014
  #100
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All I want from Logic is for it not to be a buggy mess and for Apple to stop relying on changing the UI skin to dazzle us into thinking it's new. Logic X is Logix 9 with a fresh coat of paint

At least fix the freaking issues that have been plaguing your software since 2 major versions ago (about 6-7 years at this point) that have no fix or acknowledgment from Apple in sight.

I can't use the software because I have no guarantee that what i'm working on will work when I open up the project again. I learned that the hard way and now I have projects that I have to remake or move to another more stable DAW.
Old 15th April 2014
  #101
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Just keep on using Logic 9. It's pretty solid. I also am hoping they fix things in X. The summing stacks and smart controls are great along with Flex Pitch but there are still many things to be fixed.
Old 16th April 2014
  #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phas3d View Post
The I/O Helper plug-in first appeared in Logic version 5.2 and did in fact allow plug-ins from a track to be loaded onto a second thread. It's true that it's not true multi-thread but it was a first step in that direction.

Sounds like I need an updated version of that plugin to make a comeback.

My live core overloads a bit too much for my liking. It's easy to re-start playback, but it's definitely overloading because I input monitor all my synth's constantly with FX.

Just a small gripe.
Old 16th April 2014
  #103
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phas3d's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanRand View Post
Sounds like I need an updated version of that plugin to make a comeback.

My live core overloads a bit too much for my liking. It's easy to re-start playback, but it's definitely overloading because I input monitor all my synth's constantly with FX.

Just a small gripe.
I wonder how much can be done by Apple and if developers can do something about it. Diva for example was known as a CPU hog however after an update by U-He it perfectly spreads it's load across more than 1 thread.
Old 16th April 2014
  #104
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I thought using the I/O plugin forced a track into 'Live Mode', doesn't it? Wouldn't that just add further load the one core that's usually pegged?
Old 16th April 2014
  #105
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valis's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by timtoonz View Post
I thought using the I/O plugin forced a track into 'Live Mode', doesn't it? Wouldn't that just add further load the one core that's usually pegged?
Yes, the era that phas3d was being quoted about was dominated by single core cpu's with only a handful of dual socket users (and dual cores available at the end of that era in the G5's and the last p4 & p4-era xeon iterations).
Old 17th April 2014
  #106
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And some G4 too.
Old 17th April 2014
  #107
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timtoonz's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by valis View Post
Yes, the era that phas3d was being quoted about was dominated by single core cpu's with only a handful of dual socket users (and dual cores available at the end of that era in the G5's and the last p4 & p4-era xeon iterations).
Ah, yes I remember those days "fondly"….

I've still got a dual G4 'powerhouse' in the closet. Mostly because Logic is still unreliable at loading pre v5 projects, and I have hundreds of 'em.

Would love to see better multi-threading in Logic some day. But I don't know if I can hang on this DAW much longer… If I weren't such a creature of habit I'd have learned PT by now (and probably be complaining about that).
Old 17th April 2014
  #108
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I can tell you that Pro Tools in terms of workflow when coming from Logic is pretty disappointing. For project navigation it also feels lacking. As for audio reliability and responsiveness on the other hand is pretty much on mark.
Old 17th April 2014
  #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timtoonz View Post
I thought using the I/O plugin forced a track into 'Live Mode', doesn't it? Wouldn't that just add further load the one core that's usually pegged?

The I/O plugin is also a good way to avoid PDC delays when inserted onto an audio or instrument channel strip.

You can use it as a direct output.
Old 17th April 2014
  #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanRand View Post
The I/O plugin is also a good way to avoid PDC delays when inserted onto an audio or instrument channel strip.

You can use it as a direct output.
Not sure I follow you here… I mean, I know that the I/O functions as a direct out (since that's how I usually use it, for inserting outboard gear). But can you give an example of how you use it in the above scenario, to "avoid PDC delays"?

Just curious. Or dense. Or both.
Old 17th April 2014
  #111
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You use it as a substitute output.

By doing that, your audio isn't delayed by bus/aux PDC delays. But, any latency inducing plugins inserted on an output channel strip will still slow the audio down.

You can think of the I/O plugin's output has having a direct/immediate link to the first insert slot on an output. It doesn't get slowed down by bus/aux latency.
Old 17th April 2014
  #112
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Put it simply the I/O plug-in is an insert that allows you to use analog gear. There's a functionally that allows you to ping to determine the latency so it can be adjusted.
Old 18th April 2014
  #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phas3d View Post
Put it simply the I/O plug-in is an insert that allows you to use analog gear. There's a functionally that allows you to ping to determine the latency so it can be adjusted.
That much I know -- as I said, that's how I use the plugin now, for analog inserts. And I use the 'ping' feature so that PDC lines things up.

What I'm still trying to grasp is what kind of use you'd have for NON PDC outputs… What's a scenario where you need to send the signal without the delay compensation (in which case the signal will be out of sync with the rest of your mix)…?

I'm sure there's a good reason for doing it… I just can't think of when I've ever needed that functionality in my own work.

Old 18th April 2014
  #114
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The example I linked to was a solution for someone software monitoring the stereo return of their summing mixer & 2Bus chain. He had I/O plugins and other latency inducing plugins on a bus/aux causing him extra monitoring latency.

I use Expert Sleeper's MIDI out. For software monitoring with Expert Sleepers you need to send the MIDI early, over audio, without bus/aux PDC delays. I go direct to my SPDIF output with the I/O plugin.

If your roundtrip latency is 2-4 ms, you might be able to monitor through Logic with zero latency plugins. By avoiding PDC bus/aux delays on the way back out, you avoid increased monitoring latency. Software monitored external synths already incur a roundtrip of extra latency, no point adding to that latency when playing live.

It's a bit like setting Plug-in Latency Compensation to "Audio and Software Instrument Tracks" but without making it global.
Old 18th April 2014
  #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanRand View Post
The example I linked to was a solution for someone software monitoring the stereo return of their summing mixer & 2Bus chain. He had I/O plugins and other latency inducing plugins on a bus/aux causing him extra monitoring latency.

I use Expert Sleeper's MIDI out. For software monitoring with Expert Sleepers you need to send the MIDI early, over audio, without bus/aux PDC delays. I go direct to my SPDIF output with the I/O plugin.

If your roundtrip latency is 2-4 ms, you might be able to monitor through Logic with zero latency plugins. By avoiding PDC bus/aux delays on the way back out, you avoid increased monitoring latency. Software monitored external synths already incur a roundtrip of extra latency, no point adding to that latency when playing live.

It's a bit like setting Plug-in Latency Compensation to "Audio and Software Instrument Tracks" but without making it global.
Good explanation -- I'll have to look into that, thanks!
Old 20th April 2014
  #116
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It's a good idea to ALWAYS avoid plugins on your master outputs for exactly the reasons stated above. Also keep in mind you can use smaller process (mix) buffer settings to improve responsiveness, though highly latent plugins on any bus (or output) will obviously remove any benefit here. Probably obvious to most of the active posters but for anyone else reading =]
Old 20th April 2014
  #117
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phas3d's Avatar
 

True. I do wish that Logic could pre-process the plug-ins like Pro Tools now does. It's something I told my connections at Apple that it should do years ago. Unfortunately it doesn't. Not only that but when you instantiate high latency plug-ins the playhead is off by a large amount according to what you hear. I hope that they change that soon.
Old 20th April 2014
  #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by valis View Post
It's a good idea to ALWAYS avoid plugins on your master outputs for exactly the reasons stated above. Also keep in mind you can use smaller process (mix) buffer settings to improve responsiveness, though highly latent plugins on any bus (or output) will obviously remove any benefit here. Probably obvious to most of the active posters but for anyone else reading =]



I nearly always output through an intermediary bus/aux. So most things never go direct to my outputs, but to an output bus.

Only zero latency plugins can go on my output channel strips. Usually just metering.
Old 20th April 2014
  #119
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One feature I've been thinking about lately which would be cool is a little 'scratchpad' recording window. Very often, I'll be working on a logic project and I'll come up with a little riff or chord progression for a completely different song. I end up keeping a portable recorder handy to grab these notions as they come up, but it'd be cool if Logic had a little floating window that was a simple 1 or 2 input recording space, with no tempo or other restrictions related to the main project. Just a simple 'input window' where you could store voice memos, guitar riffs, MIDI snippets, etc.

The other feature that I've been yearning for is a preference setting to route the 'software monitor' track to somewhere other than the main outputs. It should be selectable so you can send live inputs directly to the headphone outs (or another cue mix). As it is now, my template has a bunch of Aux's setup to send live inputs to the headphone mix, but headphone monitoring (and talkback) are some sadly overlooked areas of Logic "Pro".
Old 10th May 2014
  #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samsam View Post
A darker GUI. Logic X is much too bright and colourful.
the pedal board they have is really cool. i had a lot of fun with the different tones that are available. plus the selection of pedals, the presets apple offers and the way it's laid out is awesome. user friendly and they sound great.

to apple for programming it that way.
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