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Logic 11 - what do you want? Virtual Instrument Plugins
Old 26th February 2016
  #361
Here for the gear
 

Wait! There's a lot of you complaining about "the lag" and speed, the feel. Are you using the fastest iMac or Mac Pro systems? Is you Mac 2 years old or NEWER? If not, then you need to either go to an older version of the software or STOP COMPLAINING. I do not get that problem, and I have 3 screens running with my system. I also use Freeze if I am using resource heavy plug ins like Alchemy. Remember, this is not Pro Tools with dedicated DSP. This is Logic, where you have a TON of power and it is sold at a very low price by Apple, who has made this arrangement to sell new computers. That is why they bought this company - they wanted the best and they wanted to encourage computer sales. That is not evil. That is just good business. Your frustrations with lag, speed, etc is like wondering why your 6 year old iPhone doesn't run the newest apps. Really?
Old 26th February 2016
  #362
Quote:
Originally Posted by Electrox View Post
Wait! There's a lot of you complaining about "the lag" and speed, the feel. Are you using the fastest iMac or Mac Pro systems? Is you Mac 2 years old or NEWER? If not, then you need to either go to an older version of the software or STOP COMPLAINING. I do not get that problem, and I have 3 screens running with my system. I also use Freeze if I am using resource heavy plug ins like Alchemy. Remember, this is not Pro Tools with dedicated DSP. This is Logic, where you have a TON of power and it is sold at a very low price by Apple, who has made this arrangement to sell new computers. That is why they bought this company - they wanted the best and they wanted to encourage computer sales. That is not evil. That is just good business. Your frustrations with lag, speed, etc is like wondering why your 6 year old iPhone doesn't run the newest apps. Really?
Nope, new ones and older ones (mines from 2012 and 2009). The lags are, for me, not killer issues. But e.g. the window resizing is not fluid, sorry. Scrolling is not fluid. Of course that feeling is highly personal. At least I experience ProTools, Reaper and Ableton as snappier than Logic, on the same computer. So it's not about age of the computer when other DAWs work less laggy. There is room for improvement.


I remember, long time ago, when I worked at the technical support for a cable TV company. People called us because the channel switching was laggy to them with the new digital TV boxes. We measured that, it was around 2-3 seconds. I personally didn't had the feeling it was laggy, but it wasn't as snappy as with analog TV.

So we improved that, it became as fast as 1 second. We got less calls, but there were still customers complaining about the laggy feeling. We further investigated and found a solution. A new set top box, that has 6 tuners. The channel switching became lightning fast. We couldn't measure it manually anymore, let's say it was way below 1 second.

But still people complaining about lagginess... Not many left thought, so we stopped investigating in that. Competitors were still at 1-2 seconds, so we became the fastest

Point of my story: THAT FEELING IS HIGHLY PERSONAL.

If you cannot take some complaining, let's hope we don't find you ever complaining about something
Old 2nd March 2016
  #363
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nativeaudio's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frantz View Post
What you guys are describing sure sounds alot like ASIO Direct Monitoring that Steinberg gave to world for free but hardware and DAW manufacturers mostly ignored. Properly implemented, any DAW could control any supporting hardware for "zero latency" and routing without opening a separate control app. If an interface had built-in DSP than all the better.
Sure, but I think that such an OS wide standard needs to come from Microsoft (for Windows products) or from Apple (for OS X products).


Quote:
Didn't Logic directly control Apogee interfaces without Maestro at one time?
That's possible, but I don't know if it is/was possible to set up a "zero" latency, latency, direct monitoring routing this way.
Old 2nd March 2016
  #364
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Electrox View Post
Wait! There's a lot of you complaining about "the lag" and speed, the feel. Are you using the fastest iMac or Mac Pro systems? Is you Mac 2 years old or NEWER? If not, then you need to either go to an older version of the software or STOP COMPLAINING. I do not get that problem, and I have 3 screens running with my system. I also use Freeze if I am using resource heavy plug ins like Alchemy. Remember, this is not Pro Tools with dedicated DSP. This is Logic, where you have a TON of power and it is sold at a very low price by Apple, who has made this arrangement to sell new computers. That is why they bought this company - they wanted the best and they wanted to encourage computer sales. That is not evil. That is just good business. Your frustrations with lag, speed, etc is like wondering why your 6 year old iPhone doesn't run the newest apps. Really?
iMac Retina 5K - i7 4GHz - 16Gb : enough to pretend no lags at all.
Old 3rd March 2016
  #365
Here for the gear
 

Exactly my point!
Old 3rd March 2016
  #366
Gear Nut
 

Love Logic with all its glory but I have to admit that it needs quite a bit of restructuring and remodelling to be done. There are so many newer DAWs out there now including the old ones and the competition is just getting rougher everyday. They need quite a bit of catching up to do. Fix up some bugs and lag issues, better stability, more efficient cpu handling, etc. They also seem to be working hard on updating the look of many out fashion plugins that Logic came with which is great but with so many plugins that Logic has, its going to take some time. It is obvious that they have some dope features getting prepared to drop, such as the live loops and some dope plugins with Camel Audio guys help, but there is still a lot of things to fix and improve as well. Like the newer note repeat and note erase mpc type workflow features aren't very intuitive when they're several clicks away. Like a lot of Logic's features are there, but they're just there. Like Logic has a similar feature to S1 3 feature where you have these arrangement tabs and you can move the all the clips within that tab around for fast and intuitive arranging, but it isn't as smooth. I mean S1 made a huge deal with that when it came out but Logic already had something like that already. It just didn't work too great as it should. I could keep going on but the conclusion is that Logic got some work to do. Same goes for other DAWs because there is just so much competition nowadays the developers gotta stay on their toes. Great for the consumers though
By Logic 11 I hope that most of these issues will be over with with tons of dope new features and plugins with just tons of content which is Logic's strongest point. Looking forward to au3 (or whatever its called) live loops, development for the remote app for ipad, plugins, etc. Hope there will be a clip based effects type of feature that S1 and traktion 7 has and it would be dope to split up a single signal into mid side or left right and process them separately with any plugin we chooses to use. Most of the newer daws seems to do this already and it would be dope if Logic could implement something similar.
Old 3rd March 2016
  #367
Lives for gear
 

I wish for a more transparent handling of track stacks. Allow deep folding track stacks. Allow to have regions on and inside summing and folder track stacks and as soon as stacks are closed show the complete region length of content.

Slip editing is another thing I miss!
Old 4th March 2016
  #368
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Electrox View Post
Exactly my point!
maybe I've misunderstood your point, but my iMac should be supposed to have way enough of CPU power to runLPX with NO LAGS at all.
Old 5th March 2016
  #369
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The option to unlink the mixer window from the main window, please

Old 6th March 2016
  #370
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MusiKLover's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zfalcon1 View Post
Love Logic with all its glory but I have to admit that it needs quite a bit of restructuring and remodelling to be done. There are so many newer DAWs out there now including the old ones and the competition is just getting rougher everyday. They need quite a bit of catching up to do. Fix up some bugs and lag issues, better stability, more efficient cpu handling, etc. They also seem to be working hard on updating the look of many out fashion plugins that Logic came with which is great but with so many plugins that Logic has, its going to take some time. It is obvious that they have some dope features getting prepared to drop, such as the live loops and some dope plugins with Camel Audio guys help, but there is still a lot of things to fix and improve as well. Like the newer note repeat and note erase mpc type workflow features aren't very intuitive when they're several clicks away. Like a lot of Logic's features are there, but they're just there. Like Logic has a similar feature to S1 3 feature where you have these arrangement tabs and you can move the all the clips within that tab around for fast and intuitive arranging, but it isn't as smooth. I mean S1 made a huge deal with that when it came out but Logic already had something like that already. It just didn't work too great as it should. I could keep going on but the conclusion is that Logic got some work to do. Same goes for other DAWs because there is just so much competition nowadays the developers gotta stay on their toes. Great for the consumers though
By Logic 11 I hope that most of these issues will be over with with tons of dope new features and plugins with just tons of content which is Logic's strongest point. Looking forward to au3 (or whatever its called) live loops, development for the remote app for ipad, plugins, etc. Hope there will be a clip based effects type of feature that S1 and traktion 7 has and it would be dope to split up a single signal into mid side or left right and process them separately with any plugin we chooses to use. Most of the newer daws seems to do this already and it would be dope if Logic could implement something similar.
I agree with many of your points but find that CPU efficiency is fine on my system, if not superior to Ableton's, and perhaps GPU issues / lack of compliance with Metal contribute to the on-screen lag issues.

Also, stability hasn't been an issue for me, and I wonder if some plugins affect this aspect.

Ableton has raised their bar & I'm expecting Apple to follow suit. They are the front runners in 2016 according to the mainstream polls.

Think of where Live was when they released Live 8 and the CEO issued a letter to the user base apologising for performance issues and that future updates would solely focus on addressing bugs. Look where they are today!

I'm all for fixing bugs, and Apple's last list of fixes was extensive, though some new issues need to be addressed. I'm pretty confident they will be, however. LOL Ableton used to be the PDC issue-laden DAW, and theirs was much deeper as it not only affected GUI lags but audio lags too in certain scenarios. Those issues are history.

The only reason I got Bitwig was because of the mentioned PDC problems with Live. Bitwig has a slew of other issue, however, being a new DAW. Now I'm contemplating selling the license as I use Live much more as my secondary sequencer (primarily for Session View, which as you mention Live-Loops might in fact address. Actually perhaps it's imminent.)
Old 19th March 2016
  #371
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Jauqq's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanRand View Post
Automated aux/output plugin latency removal from new hardware monitored recordings (edit: i.e. remove the plugin latency whenever recording latency compensation is applied).

Come on Logic team, don't pretend it's hard. Here's the formula:

Current Timestamp minus RLC +/- Recording Delay minus Aux/Output PDC Latency


Bitwig already does this for Cliff's sake!
+1
Old 19th March 2016
  #372
A button on each channel to simultaneously bypass the plugs-ins on that channel !
Old 11th April 2016
  #373
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keano's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by nativeaudio View Post
Logic 11 - what do you want?

Everything that cubase has.

To turn on and off Inserts and Send FX clicking 1 button like Cubase and PT.

Ability to move tracks in Mix window like cubase.

Ability to navigate through automation points using the left and right arrows like Cubase <>.

As a long time Cubase user coming to Logic and having to work in both I find the workflow wanting in Logic but I want it to succeed but I don't think they take it serious like there other products or priority. Like Yamaha does with C8.5

Large mixer faders like the new Cubase and PT. <3
Old 11th April 2016
  #374
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keano's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by unclerico12 View Post
Seriously... GUI bugs for days. And please less Garagebandy!
Yea I have to add the to my list also. The GUI or responsiveness in the program lags and my **** is fast.

Funny, I told my friend same thing. Less glorified Garageband and more pro.
Old 11th April 2016
  #375
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nativeaudio's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by keano View Post
To turn on and off Inserts and Send FX clicking 1 button like Cubase and PT.
IMO this solution is better: click in the first plugin you want to bypass, drag downwards until you come to the last plugin you want to bypass, and release the muse. That's more flexible, right (and almost just as quick)?



Quote:
Ability to navigate through automation points using the left and right arrows like Cubase <>.
That's probably just a bug: "•Select Next Event of Same Type" doesn't work for automation nodes.
Old 11th April 2016
  #376
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keano's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by nativeaudio View Post
IMO this solution is better: click in the first plugin you want to bypass, drag downwards until you come to the last plugin you want to bypass, and release the muse. That's more flexible, right (and almost just as quick
Hi I know about that function but for me no that's not complete. It's like saying well it's good enough not the same as clicking one button
Old 12th April 2016
  #377
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nativeaudio's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by keano View Post
Hi I know about that function but for me no that's not complete. It's like saying well it's good enough not the same as clicking one button
Fair enough. One of the methods is more flexible (and requires less screen real estate), the other one is a little faster.
Old 15th April 2016
  #378
The option to use the K-Metering system on the output channel would be nice. Come on Apple, Reaper can do it, why can't you yet?
Old 4th May 2016
  #379
Gear Nut
 
currentstatus's Avatar
 

I'm really hoping they look into the sound/dynamics handling in the Logic Pro engine.. it sounds a bit muddy to me (less transparent) in comparison to Ni software.. and PT 12.

And also updates to the EXS24..!!
Old 4th May 2016
  #380
Quote:
Originally Posted by currentstatus View Post
I'm really hoping they look into the sound/dynamics handling in the Logic Pro engine.. it sounds a bit muddy to me (less transparent) in comparison to Ni software.. and PT 12.

Old 4th May 2016
  #381
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All I want is to be able to undo fader moves
Old 20th May 2016
  #382
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nativeaudio's Avatar
 

Apple already has Core Audio and Core MIDI. I hope they will develop Core Score as well, which would allow any 3rd part maker of scoring software to develop a module which could replace Logic's own score editor, which would behave just as if it were a part of Logic.
Old 21st May 2016
  #383
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MusiKLover's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by nativeaudio View Post
Apple already has Core Audio and Core MIDI. I hope they will develop Core Score as well, which would allow any 3rd part maker of scoring software to develop a module which could replace Logic's own score editor, which would behave just as if it were a part of Logic.
AU-3 evidently will seriously put your sample libraries / scores on steroids, Native, from what I've read. It's a bit early to tell, but that could be a serious boon for you and sansobun.
Old 21st May 2016
  #384
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nativeaudio's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MusiKLover View Post
AU-3 evidently will seriously put your sample libraries / scores on steroids, Native, from what I've read.
Hi MusiKLover, I don't think AU3, which is a plugin format, can solve problems and shortcomings in Logic's score editor. I'm thinking og things like notes being hidden, a lot of editing needed to get things to look right, wrong interpretation of accidentals and the fact that display of polyphonic material (more than one note playing at the same time) often is erratic even in simple situations.

There's much more - see eg. this poll about Logic's score editor).

But maybe the playback of samples can get a boost from a new plugin format?
Old 21st May 2016
  #385
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MusiKLover's Avatar
I have another post coming regarding the new Audio Unit Extensions in OSX (AU-3), but check this thread I came across while researching the new format (and believe me---- there's a dearth of tangible information right now-- in fact much comes from Sambosun on NI, etc -- from a year ago!) from the folks on the Reason forum:

logic stock sounds = wow - ReasonTalk.com

"Logic stock sounds = wow"

Summarization: "I agree about Logic sounds. It's overall a great program and nothing beats it at 199€. Now that it has Alchemy with spectral/additive etc etc... I think it's a monster deal."

Introduction:

Postby decibel » 01 Jan 2016
have recently began tinkering with logic pro x, and the first thing that has really blown me away is the stock sounds that come with the app, the quality is amazing and im inspired immediately without even thinking of importing anything or searching for plugins..

it makes me think how overdue reasons factory sound bank and orchestra is in need of a complete overhaul, if they dedicated some time and resources into raising the quality of the stock sound libraries for R9 it would be a great bit of extra incentive i think. as it is, it seems the current libraries were developed for a time when the goal was to keep the application as lite as possible to be used on the far less capable machines of yesteryear, now days most modern machines have far more storage space and faster processing abilities, i think reason should do this rather then push us towards buying RE'S such as a-list guitars etc

Joined: 03 Aug 2015
Re: logic stock sounds = wow
Postby Chritet » 01 Jan 2016
**Agree, reason or ableton stock sounds are really cheap against Logic.
But in Logic each sound is like a combinator with lot of effect and layer.
And with Alchemy now It's a dream !**

Each daw have some great features. I sequence in Ableton and use Reason in Rewire and MainStage ( Logic) with the IAC midi


And the list goes on --
Old 21st May 2016
  #386
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MusiKLover's Avatar
Hi Native! Sambosun had this to say last year on LogicProHelp: Logic Pro Help • View topic - Audio Units v3 Multiport Midi and AU processing outside DAW

Audio Units v3 Multiport Midi and AU processing outside DAW
Postby sambosun » Mon Jun 15, 2015 7:44 pm

Anyone else excited about this?

Apple just announced the new AU v3/ Audio Unit Extension APIs.
One major benefit if implemented:

AU v3 plugins will run by default in its own process outside the host.
That means if the AU crashes (Hi Kontakt!) the host keeps running.

Developers can update their existing v2 if they want otherwise they can bridge the v2. AU v3 will be compatible with v2 hosts until updated.

For anyone who is interested to skim through the video should take a look here:

https://developer.apple.com/videos/wwdc/2015/?id=508

I think 2 factors may be of great relevance at least to me.
1 Own process handling outside the DAW
2 Multiport Midi connection (VEP). As Doug Wyatt notes (around 46min in)
that v2 of the Audio Units allowed only 1x16ch Midi Cable
the v3 of the Audio Unit API allows 256x16ch Midi Cables!!!

Another fact:
AU units sold/downloaded via the APP store can get updated in one place.


Also, Jay Asher (you remember him? ) had this to say this past January on Ask:

https://ask.audio/articles/10-logic-...-you-will-love
#11 Bonus - Audio Unit 3 support

OK, I lied ☺ Here is another feature that will not bring you immediate benefit but may in the long term. Ever since Apple dropped VST support in Logic Pro and went with the AU plug-in format, many users have been frustrated by the 16 MIDI channel per instance limitation. AU 3 will eliminate that and Logic Pro is now ready for developers to take advantage of that by giving us AU 3 versions of their libraries engines.

There are lots more goodies in this update, so check it out!


And lastly, here is what the Apple Developer's site has to say; it took me a while to find this info, it's all in hypertext on the net, and here is my summarisation of what will be happening

1 -- "I would also like to show off what we have done with parameter scheduling *****because I think this is a big improvement over the version 2 API in this area. We have the host and the implementation dealing with things somewhat separately, but here we have the AU Audio Unit base class doing some help, it's helping us implement this.*****

2 -- *******So the host can obtain from the AU Audio Unit a block called the schedule parameter block. And at render time, it can call this block to change parameters in sample-accurate way.*******

3 -- ****That's parameter scheduling, and we have done the exact same thing with MIDI events. The host fetches a block from the Audio Unit before starting to render.****

4 -- *************Now, you will notice here we have added a function argument called cable where, in the version 2 Audio Unit API there is only one MIDI cable with 16 channels, now we have 256 virtual MIDI cables.*******

5 -- So if you have an Audio Unit that wants huge sample banks, you can do that.You can address them all on virtual MIDI cables. On the implementation side for MIDI events, this is exactly the same as for scheduled parameters.

6 -- The base class AU Audio Unit is maintaining internal schedule and passing events to the internal render block through the real-time event list only during the render cycle during which they are supposed to take effect. So we think this is a big improvement.
It saves the implementer a lot of work.

7 -- *********************** Now, in the version 3 API, it's much simpler, the AU doesn't have to maintain that state. The host provides that input block, the AU calls it for input, and when the AU calls that block for input, it has to supply valid audio buffer lists with non-null M data pointers to that block. Now, the host is allowed to replace those pointers to memory that it owns and can promise to keep valid until the next render cycle or deallocate render resources, and all of this accomplishes an important goal, which is to absolutely minimize copying."


Thus, I'd almost think of this new schematic as "modular" -- and the various puzzle pieces can hold a ton more information.

In fact, if the approach does actually work, I can almost foresee developers first releasing AUs, only to convert those to VSTs. However, we still have to see how this actually manifests. Conceptually, this sounds fantastic.

As an aside, I came across posts from developers you probably have heard of or purchased products from 2011, the last time this ordeal was undertaken, and let's just say I cannot repeat the specific commentary here on the forum.

Peace
Old 24th May 2016
  #387
Lives for gear
 

Hi Musiklover,

Back then it felt like a big change regarding plugin handling.

I hope it's coming. Although Mac OS 10.10.5 is running without glitches so I don't really want to upgrade atm.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MusiKLover View Post
Hi Native! Sambosun had this to say last year on LogicProHelp: Logic Pro Help • View topic - Audio Units v3 Multiport Midi and AU processing outside DAW

Audio Units v3 Multiport Midi and AU processing outside DAW
Postby sambosun » Mon Jun 15, 2015 7:44 pm

Anyone else excited about this?

Apple just announced the new AU v3/ Audio Unit Extension APIs.
One major benefit if implemented:

AU v3 plugins will run by default in its own process outside the host.
That means if the AU crashes (Hi Kontakt!) the host keeps running.

Developers can update their existing v2 if they want otherwise they can bridge the v2. AU v3 will be compatible with v2 hosts until updated.

For anyone who is interested to skim through the video should take a look here:

https://developer.apple.com/videos/wwdc/2015/?id=508

I think 2 factors may be of great relevance at least to me.
1 Own process handling outside the DAW
2 Multiport Midi connection (VEP). As Doug Wyatt notes (around 46min in)
that v2 of the Audio Units allowed only 1x16ch Midi Cable
the v3 of the Audio Unit API allows 256x16ch Midi Cables!!!

Another fact:
AU units sold/downloaded via the APP store can get updated in one place.


Also, Jay Asher (you remember him? ) had this to say this past January on Ask:

https://ask.audio/articles/10-logic-...-you-will-love
#11 Bonus - Audio Unit 3 support

OK, I lied ☺ Here is another feature that will not bring you immediate benefit but may in the long term. Ever since Apple dropped VST support in Logic Pro and went with the AU plug-in format, many users have been frustrated by the 16 MIDI channel per instance limitation. AU 3 will eliminate that and Logic Pro is now ready for developers to take advantage of that by giving us AU 3 versions of their libraries engines.

There are lots more goodies in this update, so check it out!


And lastly, here is what the Apple Developer's site has to say; it took me a while to find this info, it's all in hypertext on the net, and here is my summarisation of what will be happening

1 -- "I would also like to show off what we have done with parameter scheduling *****because I think this is a big improvement over the version 2 API in this area. We have the host and the implementation dealing with things somewhat separately, but here we have the AU Audio Unit base class doing some help, it's helping us implement this.*****

2 -- *******So the host can obtain from the AU Audio Unit a block called the schedule parameter block. And at render time, it can call this block to change parameters in sample-accurate way.*******

3 -- ****That's parameter scheduling, and we have done the exact same thing with MIDI events. The host fetches a block from the Audio Unit before starting to render.****

4 -- *************Now, you will notice here we have added a function argument called cable where, in the version 2 Audio Unit API there is only one MIDI cable with 16 channels, now we have 256 virtual MIDI cables.*******

5 -- So if you have an Audio Unit that wants huge sample banks, you can do that.You can address them all on virtual MIDI cables. On the implementation side for MIDI events, this is exactly the same as for scheduled parameters.

6 -- The base class AU Audio Unit is maintaining internal schedule and passing events to the internal render block through the real-time event list only during the render cycle during which they are supposed to take effect. So we think this is a big improvement.
It saves the implementer a lot of work.

7 -- *********************** Now, in the version 3 API, it's much simpler, the AU doesn't have to maintain that state. The host provides that input block, the AU calls it for input, and when the AU calls that block for input, it has to supply valid audio buffer lists with non-null M data pointers to that block. Now, the host is allowed to replace those pointers to memory that it owns and can promise to keep valid until the next render cycle or deallocate render resources, and all of this accomplishes an important goal, which is to absolutely minimize copying."


Thus, I'd almost think of this new schematic as "modular" -- and the various puzzle pieces can hold a ton more information.

In fact, if the approach does actually work, I can almost foresee developers first releasing AUs, only to convert those to VSTs. However, we still have to see how this actually manifests. Conceptually, this sounds fantastic.

As an aside, I came across posts from developers you probably have heard of or purchased products from 2011, the last time this ordeal was undertaken, and let's just say I cannot repeat the specific commentary here on the forum.

Peace
Old 9th July 2016
  #388
"copy audio configuration" from Logic 9.......PLEEEEEEEASE
Old 11th July 2016
  #389
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IkennaFuNkEn's Avatar
 

Real time audio editing like in ableton. Drawing pitch automation with real time properties in audio. Adding reverse to an audio file doesn't affect all the files except the one created(they might have Lready fixed this). Quick midi parameter editing properties, for faster work so you don't have to draw out basic things. If you want something more complicated then draw it. Next midi region starts at Zero, for crying out loud. For example if you draw a pitch automation down it carries on to the next region even if there's no draw properties there. it plays where it left off even if you don't set it. Each Region should have its own thing, unless you specify to copy automation with drag. Sounds pretty commonsensical

Last edited by IkennaFuNkEn; 16th July 2016 at 10:50 PM..
Old 11th July 2016
  #390
Lives for gear
 

"what do you want in logic 11??????"

Did you really go there

On a serious note that I will be pelted and beaten over.......windows support.

Never happen, but then again DP was NEVER to doze either .... wait, considering how poorly it runs, scratch that
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