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Apple states better performance New Mac Pro with Logic X
Old 9th November 2013
  #61
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valis's Avatar
I disagree too, Apple has a tendency more than most other companies of its size to simply shift their entire customerbase over to what they think "the next thing" is before people are usually even ready. OS9>OSX, PowerPC>x86, the list goes on...

I would imagine from Apple's perspective that they WANT to transition new users over to the nMP rather than keeping the old hardware around...
Old 9th November 2013
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveDaveDave View Post
I can only think of one good reason to pay more, and it's the price of silence. ATX based gear is just so loud, and I won't deal with it in my home studio anymore. After much mucking around with closet "machine room" conversions, expensive cooling, insulation and cabling, my conversion to a nice quiet iMac was a huge relief and a time-saver. I keep it simple with a single RAID on a single 30' firewire cable far far away, and share media straight to the cloud.
Doesn't sound like you really took the appropriate steps to make a silent pc. All you need are some fans with low db ratings. I only have two silenx fans in my pc and it's pretty much dead silent.
Old 15th November 2013
  #63
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The MPCist's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by climber View Post
How do you know there isn't? Have you heard any? I heard a Sonnet and it was pretty quiet.
I've been using a Sonnet PCIe>TB chassis for the past few weeks while waiting for my Magma to arrive and it's pretty quiet sitting behind the console with the Mac Mini.
Old 15th November 2013
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveDaveDave View Post
I can only think of one good reason to pay more, and it's the price of silence. ATX based gear is just so loud, and I won't deal with it in my home studio anymore. After much mucking around with closet "machine room" conversions, expensive cooling, insulation and cabling, my conversion to a nice quiet iMac was a huge relief and a time-saver. I keep it simple with a single RAID on a single 30' firewire cable far far away, and share media straight to the cloud.

Mac Pros are going to be overkill for audio projects with IO and track counts in the dozens. It's more than I need I still want one though. The only part of the "trailer and tent" approach that bugs me is that in the end it'll be a rats nest of thunderbolt, powerstrips and power cables. The high cost will hurt, so I'll just wait for a refurb one.

To each their own
"ATX gear" does not relate to decibel ratings in any way. It's a form factor. It's like saying "White toasters burn my toast so much more than aluminum ones."

There is absolutely zero connection. I guarantee you you can build a more silent machine than a Mac Pro.
Old 18th November 2013
  #65
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Fernand's Avatar
You'd all be feeling entirely differently about these issues if you could walk across the web and pick out whatever you wanted, and not give a whoop about what Infinite Loop was selling this week as "the coming thing". Every monopoly is a terrible thing. Sigh.

And it stands to reason that you can optimize your hardware for silent running much better than if you're building video editing machines in a small form factor.
Old 28th November 2013
  #66
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composer's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tui View Post
So, PCIe is good enough for their flash memory, but not good enough for PCIe cards? What sort of logic is that?
Hmmm, has anyone ever been to oh, I don't know, NBC, Bravo (where they do all their upcoming and "coming up next" or "next week on Bravo", as they are in the same building? There graphic cards cost about the same as the Mac Pro for cryin out loud. They will have no choice but to go with newer macs and see how long they can go, or see about newer for some, 12 core, avid or UAD for Foley, V/O, Sound Design as I don't see every workstation ( every office has a nice 2-4 monitor setup ) and everything is backed up and mirrored to dozens of digi Hard Drive bays in the I.T. Room ) and can only see the new MacBook working if the price isn't freaking doubled and [/bold] IS [/b] really is twice as fast meaning take the logic be mark. If a 12 core was close to a 8 2009 Neleham, these new chips better be in the high 32,000 for geek bench and double the number or tracks or the latest 12or is not 1.8 x faster or twice, et-cetera. If so, they won't think twice for the chassis route.

Last. We're not even broadcasting at 1080p but are getting there. Example. DSL NOT CABLE BUT AT&T
now has 30, 60, and higher MB not bits but MB PER SEC UP TO 90 on DSL. Know if true very good, especially if Apple releasing a 55" and 65" 4K for $2k and $25-$3000.00 for 65" and seeing his active blows passive out of the water, check out the Samsung 8500 plasma,Active 3D, perfect from any angle. This puts SONY IN the Stone Age as they are much to slow in implementing their products.
Old 29th November 2013
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by valis View Post
I doubt it, the iMac (or MBP) has already been tiding Final Cut Pro & PT Native/Logic users over for a while, the video studios I know of have known more about the Mac Pro (via backdoor channels) than I expected. Some of the people I work for/with knew about the form factor change last year and I didn't believe them, and they're all waiting for the new machines *IF* they need them.

But yes I'd agree it's not targeting audio users at all, and that's ok IMO. Going to tradeshows for video hardware & streaming video tech and then visiting shows like NAMM & Messe you'll find the numbers thrown around in the audio industry are fractional values of the video market. 4K video is expected to be the next 'driving factor in growth for broadcast & streaming video' (I have seen this phrase used almost universally in video for 6+ months now) and the audio users have *always* been traditionally catered for later. The response time is lower these days, but the speed at which any peripheral standard has catered to audio users has always lagged behind the mainstream. Workstations gaining floppies when computers were shifting to internal drives in the 80's (I have keyboards from the 90's that used solely floppies!); Samplers gaining SCSI & Zip/Jaz drive support when flash media was emerging for computing and SCSI/Zip being left behind; USB ports showing up on anything that wasn't just a simple midi controller (and these used 1.0 chipsets when 1.1/2.0 were already in the market for consumer tech...) The list goes on & on...and it's largely due to budgets, product cycles and marketshare.

I still remain unconvinced that 95% of Logic users even need one today. In 2-3 years when TB 2.0 makes a lot more sense (sub $1000 4K monitors on the market etc) I bet the machine's oddball nature won't seem so oddball...and more & more users will need that Mac Pro instead of one of the 2011/2012 models (or even a haswell/broadwell iMac or etc)
Perfect time to be learning FCP, AVID, PT, LOGIC, AE, MOTION. THERE are some schools that I see for 1-2 years at only $23k and because many pros need to get re certified, they see that the noob has talent, guy/gal leaves school for a year, comes back with a series under their belt at $25 an hour to $50 if real good, finish pay for school get another chert same thing. Might leave classes a few times then before the know what hit them are making at least $200 an hour doing what they love, while being an expert at their craft if they play as the could set up light. Do a 2 hour class's on shooting and for next to nothing and IN RETURN, have them shot a commercial and your music vid video. Believe brothers AND sisters.

HAPPY THANKSGIVING. PLEASE PASS THE SMALLPOX.
Old 29th November 2013
  #68
Tui
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Tui's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by The MPCist View Post
I've been using a Sonnet PCIe>TB chassis for the past few weeks while waiting for my Magma to arrive and it's pretty quiet sitting behind the console with the Mac Mini.
Really? My Sonnet single-card chassis sounded like a cheap hairdryer until I disconnected the fan.
Old 8th December 2013
  #69
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So for a power Logic 9 & X user what tower style Mac Pro speed is the sweet spot?

I need lots of RAM for samples and I also do lots of microphone based recording.

The new Trash Can Pro does not make sense for me since it has no bays or slots. So, I am buying one of the last generations until this pans out. I am suspecting that the Trash Can Pro is not going to be a big seller now.
Old 20th December 2013
  #70
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Apple has taken away storage, but they haven't yet offered a workaround. My 2006 Mac Pro has 3 7200 RPM drives in it right now, and it sits neatly and quietly under my desk. But now that Apple has washed their hands of the responsibility to provide the option of significant storage, Mac Pro buyers also need a third-party external drive enclosure that will also be quiet, and fast, and compatible, that we can put our hard disks into. Instead of having trustworthy offerings from Apple, we have been left in the cold to research and find a suitable product .. This enclosure will connect to the Mac, and it will also require its own AC power. It probably won't be cylindrical, so the elegance of the cute little garbage can is probably lost.

My workflow presently revolves around about 3 TB of storage. It's just how I roll. Apart from the fact that I have created some huge sample libraries, I also create a new folder every month for everything I work on, including copies of all dependent files, even if they are unedited sample banks, or outtakes. I keep it available on a local drive because I often find myself checking through old revisions so I can figure out where I messed it up. If I open something I was working on during a previous month, I will not save over it, but instead I save it in this month's folder and leave the old revision unchanged. After a few years of this, you end up with quite a bit of data. My prerogative.

Apple could offer a solution here: I could archive my stuff to an external volume (i.e. file server, external HD, whatever). Apple could include a "scratch disk" preference so that I could open a project, or insert an audio file, or load a sample library from anywhere, and without further action on my part Logic would temporarily copy all the files I'm working with to a user-specified path, typically on a fast local drive, like ~/Music/CurrentLogicProject/. All work and all saving is done on this local copy until I close the project, at which point Logic will update the actual file (and delete the local working copy). Or it could automatically save to both locations at the same time.

Ah, but storage is just part of the problem. Apple expects audio professionals to overspend on this machine's grotesquely overpowered graphics, and still pay extra for a keyboard and mouse. In fact, audio connectivity on this box is via those ****ty laptop audio mini-toslink/analog minijack combo connectors that break all the time, or else through an external Thunderbolt or USB (not FireWire) audio interface.. This is a big step BACK from the previous Mac Pro, which at least offered dedicated optical audio jacks. But hey ... maybe that panel space was taken up with that illuminated legending that Apple thoughtfully included to assist users who can't make out the shapes of the holes on the back.

By the way I have heard on several forums that we should not expect to see GPU-accelerated audio dsp any time soon (i.e. via OpenCL or Cuda), due to fundamental limitations with the technology that I won't pretend to understand. I will admit I'd love to be wrong about this.

I need to replace my 2006 quad-core Mac Pro with a new machine that can run Mavericks, Logic Pro X, and a modern web browser. That i7 Mac Mini looks promising. And my unified thermal core seems to be overheating.

Last edited by infindebula; 20th December 2013 at 06:28 AM.. Reason: cleanup
Old 20th December 2013
  #71
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Looking forward to the first reports using lOGIC x on the new MP here.
Old 24th December 2013
  #72
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cinealta's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by infindebula View Post
...I have heard on several forums that we should not expect to see GPU-accelerated audio dsp any time soon (i.e. via OpenCL or Cuda), due to fundamental limitations with the technology that I won't pretend to understand.
Latency.

OpenCL is not great for real-time applications eg audio processing etc. The CPU must create a batch job, send the job to the GPU to process, then it must return to the CPU to be incorporated with the other data which is waiting. Latency is involved with those round trips to/from CPU. It's great for non-linear video editing or offline 3D rendering etc.
Old 24th December 2013
  #73
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valis's Avatar
Agreed on latency. Best case scenarios approach other DSP based solutions (look at Nebula to see) but are very limited in what they can actually do, largely revolving around the FFT/impulse based processing that is easily ported to parallel GPU cores.

In regards to GPU's in the Mac Pro, you can upgrade the lower Mac Pro models to have better a CPU & SSD and don't need to have more than 1 GPU, at least last I checked...
Old 24th December 2013
  #74
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Talpa's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by piano View Post
So for a power Logic 9 & X user what tower style Mac Pro speed is the sweet spot?

I need lots of RAM for samples and I also do lots of microphone based recording.

The new Trash Can Pro does not make sense for me since it has no bays or slots. So, I am buying one of the last generations until this pans out. I am suspecting that the Trash Can Pro is not going to be a big seller now.
Trash Can..meh

Bottleneck Slide..exactly
Old 24th December 2013
  #75
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Fernand's Avatar
Methinks it's just packaging, a la iPhone 5C. And they're good at it. Packaging rules, otherwise it's just Chinese parts. I was pleased to learn that while everybody else's plastic is tacky, the 5C plastic body is "incredibly rigid". When every Apple devotee has settled into the octopus style, shoveling their tangle systems into a duffle bag to move them down the hall, they'll introduce a new improved integrated armored robot style, "would you run a car with no body, or a brain without a skull" campaign.
Old 24th December 2013
  #76
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Fernand's Avatar
My Mont Blanc pen was made of special "resin". I really believed that. Like the iPhone 5C. When the warranty was up and it broke, it turned out to be plastic. In the landfill a mac turns out to be a PC. It takes skill.
Old 25th December 2013
  #77
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If you've got skills upgrading a single CPU unit Mac Pro 5.1 is pretty easy. The quad and six core ones use the standard Xeon CPUs with lid.
Old 26th December 2013
  #78
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Fernand's Avatar
Actually Apple is high tech and stateside, so I wish them well. What they offer is for outfits that operate at high economic levels and individuals with real money, it's not targeting "cost effective". Nothing wrong with that.
Old 1st January 2014
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fernand View Post
Valid points. But I also prefer a house to a trailer and a bunch of tents. And you can't beat the cost - effectiveness of raw internal drives, for instance. Why should I have to pay for costly thunder interfaces instead of throwing in another drive with a standard SATA jack? Whatever you like, I prefer simple and cheaper.
go ahead, but the rest of the world is moving on.

if you want to setup up complex raid systems with HD inside your massive tower to realise the potential of todays CPUs then go ahead. otherwise you'll have bottle necks which is what putting a 7200 rpm drive in your PC equates to now.

pci-e 3.0 flash storage combined with TB2 for various peripherals is a solution unparalleled at this point unless you go in search of enterprise server storage products. Whether its running a PC that has 2 Tb2 ports and 5 pcie ports or the mac bro that has 6 Tb2 ports and 1 pcie 3.0 port doesn't really matter. They both will deliver the throughput needed for the next 4-5 years.

You get what you pay for. HDD are cheap, for a reason.
Old 2nd January 2014
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thales View Post
You get what you pay for.
When you do a price breakdown on similarly equipped PC's, the new Mac Pros are a decent bargain as well. They haven't jacked up the price just because they are a Mac.

The New Apple Mac Pro is Here - But Can We Build it Better (and Cheaper) PC DIY Style? - Futurelooks

Entry-Level Mac Pro Offers Comparable Pricing Versus OEM PCs, DIY Systems More Affordable - Mac Rumors

This will probably be my next computer, though it will most likely be in a couple of years.
Old 2nd January 2014
  #81
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Zoolook's Avatar
I think some people in this thread would have argued against the light bulb if they'd had forums to bitch about it.

Thunderbolt provides enough bandwidth for anything aside you'll use in audio. It has more usable bandwidth than PCIe 4x 2.0, which is already more than fast enough for audio interfaces or even multiple RAID HDDs/SSDs along with multiple displays.

Sure, it's not PCIe 3.0 (which is only really needed for GPUs) but I'd love to know who needs 16GBs (gigabytes) per second here?
Old 2nd January 2014
  #82
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cinealta's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by composer View Post
...Last. We're not even broadcasting at 1080p but are getting there.
NHK Japan & Dish Network are testing 4K broadcast now.
Old 8th January 2014
  #83
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Fernand's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thales View Post
go ahead, but the rest of the world is moving on.
...
You get what you pay for. HDD are cheap, for a reason.
Huh? As opposed to what? magnetic core memory? Static RAM chips?

Let's take a Logic X session at 24 bit 96 kbit/sec, modeling a cinematic mid 19th century style symphonic orchestra using a typical 24 bit 48kbit sample library on a 4 GHz 4 core 8 thread i7 CPU with 32 GB of DDR3 RAM and a 1 Gb 6850 type video card. Let's say the project is created as MIDI tracks feeding sampler instances, say Kontakt. The project folder is on the 128 gb SSD boot drive and the sample lib is on a 7200 rpm 2 TB SATA 600 internal drive. Audio is monitored using the Motherboard's 24 bit chipset or a $200 firewire interface. Project backups are saved to 25/50 gb bluray optical disks. Time machine backs up to another internal 2 tb SATA drive that also holds an emergency boot partition. Where is the bottleneck or limiting factor in this setup, where exactly are we likely to be running out of humph? The system as described is a $1000 hackintosh, self-contained in a tidy Mid Tower case. Or an older "cheese grater" Mac Pro with some generic parts added. What will switching to a $4000 tubular Mac Pro improve, what bottleneck will it widen?
Old 17th January 2014
  #84
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The orchestral mockups I'm working on would never run on a machine like that without issues. I want at least some of the beefier sample libraries on SSD, and probably at least six cores. On the older MP the SATA II is a major bottleneck for SSD.
Old 17th January 2014
  #85
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My question was: what exactly is the bottleneck? You think 6Gb SATA?

What has surprised me is that under OSX SATA seems much slower than under 64 bit Windows 7. Under Windows i never gave it a thought, but when the same PC is running OSX, the disks seem much slower. Wonder why.
Old 18th January 2014
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fernand View Post
My question was: what exactly is the bottleneck?
7200 rpm hard drive.
Old 18th January 2014
  #87
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Not sure what the most economical way to house and connect RAID arrays is going to be in a year or two, but for now it seems a tower with 6GB SATA connectors to the MB isn't a bad way to stack an array.
On similar i5/i7 systems with SATA 6Gb and 3 Gb single 7200 RPM drives what I'm getting is around 180/170 under Windows 7 and 120/110 under OsX 10.8.4. So there does seem to be a difference. For people doing video the mandatory way to go seems to be RAID arrays, but for audio and MIDI a couple of straight 7200 rpm drives still deliver a lot of tracks, especially under Windows. Could it be that OsX's lesser efficiency is driving the push to faster interfaces?
Old 18th January 2014
  #88
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valis's Avatar
Many of the video guys I know use external SSDs either taken directly off the camera via USB3/Firewire/Thunderbolt adapters in combination with an extra framestore drive (typically similarly connected as the first). Especially those using 2.5K, 4K & higher bit depths for source edits (flown into Resolve or etc first or not).
Old 19th January 2014
  #89
Gear Addict
The LaCie 2Big via Thunderbolt (2x 3TB Barracuda inside) delivers about 350MB/s here... enough for big libraries and video...
Old 22nd January 2014
  #90
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For playing back "tracks" 7200 rpm drives are fine. The need for SSD in audio is driven mainly by big sample libraries, and there's a huge benefit on both mac and PC.
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