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Serious old bug (Broken PDC) completely ignored by the Apple Logic X programmers!
Old 24th January 2020
  #1
Gear Maniac
Serious old bug (Broken PDC) completely ignored by the Apple Logic X programmers!

After stumbling on to this problem myself I've found out this bug has been in there for 2 years!!! Apple completely ignored all the reports by it's users and update after update didn't fix this.

not fixed in 10.4.8 , c'mon apple!

If you have nothing to do, you are welcome to report this to apple here.
https://www.apple.com/feedback/logic-pro.html
create track “audio 1”
create track “audio 2”
route track “audio 1” over “bus 1” to “aux 1”
insert latency inducing plugin “Linear Phase EQ” into “aux 1”
route “aux 1” over “bus 2” to “aux 2”
route track “audio 2” over “bus 3” to “aux 3”
insert plugin “Compressor” to “aux 3”
change side chain of the compressor to “bus 2”
put a identical drum-loop on both tracks
result: audio 1 <-> audio 2 are NOT in sync

I've made a report myself and urge my fellow logic users to do the same!
Old 24th January 2020
  #2
Gear Maniac
 
tedannemann's Avatar
 

Unfortunately true and only a small portion of the completely broken PDC < > Automation < Aux/Summing Stack > Bounce in Place relationship.
Quote:
1. Automation in Logic (Pro X 10.4.8) is not plug-in delay compensated on audio/instruments tracks (but on aux tracks/summing stacks).
In other words, once you're working with latency-intensive plug-ins, even instruments (e.g. VPS Avenger) or just being an UAD user, your automation is basically out of order. This is also true for Logic's own Linear Phase EQ for example, no additional 3rd party plug-ins needed. Just automate a low or hi-cut, the automation will be nearly around 100 ms out of time in this case.

2. Plug-ins that depend on beat-time information (MIDI synced to the host) are simply not compensated on aux tracks/summing stacks (but on audio/instrument tracks)
In other words, if you are using something like Output's Movement, LFO Tool, Pumper, Effectrix, Cableguys plug-ins... , you name it, on an aux track/summing stack - timing of the beat-time based plug-ins will be out of order. I know several producers using a ducking or gate-effect bus for such effects - timing won't be correct then. This is also true for Logic's own Phat and Step FX for example.

3. Side chain signals aren't compensated correctly
The external side chain signal isn't compensated when introducing latency generating plug-ins after the side chain receiving plug-in on audio/instrument tracks (e.g. limiter after compressor with external side chain).
The external side chain signal isn't compensated when introducing latency generating plug-ins before the side chain receiving plug-in on aux tracks/summing stacks (e.g. tape simulation plug-in before compressor with external side chain).
If you are using the FabFilter Pro-L 2 with external side chain triggering for stem mastering for example, the side chaining will be completely out of time moreso when using one of the oversampling options. This is also true when working with Logic's own Linear Phase EQ and Compressor on one track using external side chaining.

4. Bounce in Place is not compensated correctly at all
Bounce in Place does not take automation and plug-in delay compensation correctly into account especially when bouncing aux tracks/summing stacks (see above). Pure chaos, depending on what is going on on your tracks and busses. External side chaining is ignored when using Bounce in Place as well. So you have to use the export track or bounce to disk function and drag your files back again into Logic, cubersome.
Working with Universal A plug-ins or latency intensive plugins like Soothe, Gullfoss or FaFilter is completely broken when automation is involved. This is really fatal.


All those who work with Logic and for whom timing is important, please write a message to Apple to fix these errors as soon as possible. It might help a little if you make the reference to the false statement in their advertisement: https://www.apple.com/feedback/logic-pro.html
Old 25th January 2020
  #3
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tedannemann View Post
Unfortunately true and only a small portion of the completely broken PDC < > Automation < Aux/Summing Stack > Bounce in Place relationship.


Working with Universal A plug-ins or latency intensive plugins like Soothe, Gullfoss or FaFilter is completely broken when automation is involved. This is really fatal.


All those who work with Logic and for whom timing is important, please write a message to Apple to fix these errors as soon as possible. It might help a little if you make the reference to the false statement in their advertisement: https://www.apple.com/feedback/logic-pro.html
I don’t do music that needs automation to be so tight but I can see in some music styles that this could be a problem. But for the UAD plugins, does it help if you put the plugins in Live Mode? A/B-ing what Logic reports as latency with some plugins is pretty drastic, sometimes going from 23-24 ms to 2,4ms. Wouldn’t it help in such cases for people making those kind of productions and using automation on UAD plugins? It won’t help for other brands of plugins but at least it would with UAD...

KA
Old 26th January 2020
  #4
Gear Maniac
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KorgAddict View Post
I don’t do music that needs automation to be so tight but I can see in some music styles that this could be a problem. But for the UAD plugins, does it help if you put the plugins in Live Mode? A/B-ing what Logic reports as latency with some plugins is pretty drastic, sometimes going from 23-24 ms to 2,4ms. Wouldn’t it help in such cases for people making those kind of productions and using automation on UAD plugins? It won’t help for other brands of plugins but at least it would with UAD...

KA
Bottom line is that it has nothing to do with the style of music. It's a technical malfunction. Automation, side-chain signals and Bounce In Place with Summing Stacks are not or at least not correctly compensated although this is advertised and of course expected to work nowadays.

This affects everyone using plug-ins that induce latency in use with automation, side-chain signals or Bounce In Place of Summing Stacks.

Whether you are a UAD, Acustica, FabFilter, iZotope, Waves (e.g. Abbey Road Studio), Soothe, Gullfoss or an IK Multimedia User. Any plug-in that induces latency (including Logic’s own stock FX) can possibly get you in trouble at some time.

Here is a very primitive example. An EXS24 piano track that has a simple volume automation (of the plug-in itself). During the course of your production or later in the mix you decide to put on some UAD tape saturation. Now your automation (in this case) is off by a whole 16th note (2nd track should look like the 3rd track), which is totally unacceptable:



This could be a simple vocal recording that uses some sort of vocal rider automation and later on an UAD LA-2A or 1176 on it. A string or brass track with an automation swell on it. A movie soundtrack that uses automation for effects, an EDM track that works towards a drop, a few drum overheads that use the basic automation of a compressor and later Soothe or anything like that on it, you name it…

The automation runs completely out of control regardless of genre or application.

And whether it's hard or soft automation, it’ doesn't matter, the automation points(!) are simply completely misinterpreted as soon as latency is involved. Same is true for different side-chain signals as well as Summing-Stack/Aux routings (see my previous post in this read).

This is not acceptable, especially because it is advertised as fully compensated and DAWs such as Cubase, Bitwig or even Ableton Live after all this years (except MIDI synced plug-ins) offer a correct delay compensation for plug-ins / automation.

This misbehaviour does not only affect large projects but every single track that works with automation and plug-ins inducing latency higher than 0 ms.

Another example are virtual instruments that generate latency on their own, such as VPS Avenger. At 10 ms (which is needed for some presets to work right) the automation (simple filter movement) will never be in time, because the instrument itself is not compensated.

It is an important concern to correct this behaviour.
Old 27th January 2020
  #5
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jwh1192's Avatar
Q: when you have Automation and THEN you add latency inducing plugin(s) ... THEN remove them, does the Automation go back to in sync ?? this is assuming that the Automation when done BEFORE you add latency inducing plugins IS in Sync to begin with ... ??

thx john
Old 27th January 2020
  #6
Yup, well known by Apple.

I've even got a personal response from the team that they're aware of the bug, but still nothing has been done about it for years. People keep reporting it - nothing happens.

https://www.logicprohelp.com/forum/v...?f=42&t=135038

We don't need more Apple Loops - we need bug fixes ;-)
Old 27th January 2020
  #7
Gear Maniac
 

"We don't need more Apple Loops - we need bug fixes ;-)"...but bug fixes/reports are already an Apple loop, so I'm not sure I follow....../s~
Old 28th January 2020
  #8
Gear Addict
 

Ive had a reply from Apple on this issue too, I’m sending them a project file tonight to illustrate. We can only hope this gets addressed soon.
Old 28th January 2020
  #9
Gear Maniac
 
tedannemann's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jwh1192 View Post
Q: when you have Automation and THEN you add latency inducing plugin(s) ... THEN remove them, does the Automation go back to in sync ?? this is assuming that the Automation when done BEFORE you add latency inducing plugins IS in Sync to begin with ... ??

thx john
Yes, as it wasn't compensated for in the first place - everything is back to where it was before if you remove (not bypass!) the heavy latency plug-ins. But even the (before) standard automation timing could be improved in Logic as it's sloppy as well and the rendering can depend on your buffer size settings.

The bad thing is, I wanted to create a workaround for me. A little rulebook, what I am allowed to do and what not, to have automation and audio stream always correct in sync.
But the truth is, that in combination with many automations, aux channels, summing stacks and side-chain signals, I have absolutely no overview anymore and can't keep track of the workarounds. The simplest mistake in routing, automation and using plug-ins on the fly gets you immediately in trouble.
It really is a huge mess (as long as your work with latency introducing plug-ins, which pretty much takes every UAD user into account).
Old 28th January 2020
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tedannemann View Post
Yes, as it wasn't compensated for in the first place - everything is back to where it was before if you remove (not bypass!) the heavy latency plug-ins. But even the (before) standard automation timing could be improved in Logic as it's sloppy as well and the rendering can depend on your buffer size settings.

The bad thing is, I wanted to create a workaround for me. A little rulebook, what I am allowed to do and what not, to have automation and audio stream always correct in sync.
But the truth is, that in combination with many automations, aux channels, summing stacks and side-chain signals, I have absolutely no overview anymore and can't keep track of the workarounds. The simplest mistake in routing, automation and using plug-ins on the fly gets you immediately in trouble.
It really is a huge mess (as long as your work with latency introducing plug-ins, which pretty much takes every UAD user into account).
thank you so much for the reply ...

Q: lets say you have the ability to make a Decision (old school recording) and you can Commit, sorry avid language, your tracks with Plugins to AUDIO !!! could we get around the side and automation issues ??

reason: i am thinking of your comments about not really having Workaround .. brainstorming a bit !! thx for indulging me ..

cheers john
Old 29th January 2020
  #11
Gear Maniac
It's a real shame and honestly feel like I need to switch DAW because of it... I do this for a living, so my tools need to be reliable! I feel Logic is Apple's least important product and just sustained because people like us buy the hardware!
Old 29th January 2020
  #12
Gear Maniac
 
tedannemann's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jwh1192 View Post
Q: lets say you have the ability to make a Decision (old school recording) and you can Commit, sorry avid language, your tracks with Plugins to AUDIO !!! could we get around the side and automation issues ?? cheers john
To some degree yes. But this would mean, that you have to bounce "every single time" before you automate anything on a track where you possibly introduce latency at some time. Because automation is not compensated for no matter if the latency is introduced before(!) or after(!) the automated plug-in (speaking of audio and instrument tracks). And now the worst part, if you automate a latency introducing plug-in itself the automation will never(!) be in time, again: never! In other words, it is impossible to automate any UAD or oversampled/latency heavy plug-in in Logic on an audio or instrument tracks without a broken automation. This really is a huge mess up.
Regarding side-chaining you can commit your files especially the track feeded with the side-chain signal. You have to be careful not to introduce latency after the plug-in that receives the side-chain signal as its not compensated. However I'm not sure at the moment, if the plug-in receiving the side-chain signal introduces latency by itself, if the feeded signal is correctly compensated for (e.g. FabFilter Pro-L with oversampling gets a side-chain signal from another stem channel).

As a rule of thumb one can say (but even here it gets complicated and confusing):
Do not automate audio or instruments tracks if there are any latency introducing plug-ins on it - or reroute them to an aux track and do the automation there (but don't bounce it in place).
Do not automate a single parameter on a virtual instrument that introduces latency by itself. Not possible to get it tight in Logic!
Don't introduce latency heavy plug-ins after any plug-in that receives a side-chain signal.
Don't "Bounce in Place" summing stacks or aux channels when they have any latency introducing plug-ins on them (no automation needed here!).

But if you mix up all the issues (see my first post), it's hard to keep track of it.

For myself, I have decided to move most of the work to other DAWs. On big productions with 100 or more tracks and lots of high class (meaning latency heavy plug-ins as DynOne, Soothe, Gullfoss, linear phase EQs, oversampled lookahead plug-ins, ...) and UAD plugins, aux channels, side-chain signals and a lot of automation, I completely lose track and more worse, it limits myself too much in my creative work.

Of course, you could say that you accept all this behavior (what most of Logic users obviously do) and have a vague or wrong automation timing - but depending on the plug-ins you use it's not about phase problems anymore, but audibly affects the sound and timing.

And not to mention: Cubase, Bitwig or Live for example do not have these problems. The automation timing is as good as the plug-in parameter change buffer transfer to the DAW allows it.
Old 2nd February 2020
  #13
Gear Head
 

I can't understand how Logic Pro is so widely used and yet doesn't have PDC on Automation? thought getting into Logic, but this is a huge no-go for me...
Old 6th February 2020
  #14
Gear Head
 

This is crazy. Which DAW has the best PDC and works as advertised? How is Harrison Mixbuss?
Old 6th February 2020
  #15
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tedannemann's Avatar
 

In my book it is Cubase, really everything, no matter how hard and crazy your routing is (busses, external equipment, side-chains, heavy latency plug-ins and instruments, host tempo synced plug-ins, recordings, external controller movements, ...) everything is nearly perfectly compensated.
Bitwig is doing good as well (I get pretty much the same results as with Cubase). Live still has a few things things not perfectly compensated (mainly host synced plug-ins and rerouted sends), Pro Tools is missing side-chain compensation (non HD/X), Studio One has some other issues with automation (intermodulation, errors when bouncing), FL Studio unfortunately is a joke in that realm, I'm not sure about Reaper, but didn't hear or stumble about any stoppers there regarding automation.

But it always depends what tools you use and how complex your projects are. Sometimes there are workarounds (Pro Tools for example, you can manually compensate busses). Nevertheless it's just sad that such a fine DAW as Logic really is such a mess in that area.
Old 6th February 2020
  #16
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Muser's Avatar
this may help affirm or disaffirm certain findings. and with updates, you may tend to have to recheck if some change may or may not have occurred. which will no doubt always be an awesome thing to have to look forward to.

Old 6th February 2020
  #17
Gear Maniac
 
tedannemann's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Muser View Post
this may help affirm or disaffirm certain findings. and with updates, you may tend to have to recheck if some change may or may not have occurred. which will no doubt always be an awesome thing to have to look forward to.

Unfortunately this hasn't anything to do with the hardcore PDC problems mentioned above per se but still shows how different DAWs react and behave on the base and therefore (can of worms coming) sound different .
Anyway, Mr Bumblebee's series is excellent and and also shows the slow-minded amateur (no offense), who usually make completely nonsensical null tests, that a DAW is indeed the sum of several parts - and you have to "drive" your car.
Old 6th February 2020
  #18
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tedannemann View Post
In my book it is Cubase, really everything, no matter how hard and crazy your routing is (busses, external equipment, side-chains, heavy latency plug-ins and instruments, host tempo synced plug-ins, recordings, external controller movements, ...) everything is nearly perfectly compensated ...

Thanks, I was looking at the update for Soothe and saw this... very sad.

---

I have Logic, Protools, and Mixbuss32C...

I guess I should look into Cubase, I do love how Dorico is coming along.
Attached Thumbnails
Serious old bug (Broken PDC) completely ignored by the Apple Logic X programmers!-soothe.png  
Old 6th February 2020
  #19
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Muser's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by tedannemann View Post
Here is a very primitive example. An EXS24 piano track that has a simple volume automation (of the plug-in itself). During the course of your production or later in the mix you decide to put on some UAD tape saturation. Now your automation (in this case) is off by a whole 16th note (2nd track should look like the 3rd track), which is totally unacceptable:



The automation runs completely out of control regardless of genre or application.
it's hard to know that it's not the UAD plugins own behavior in reaction to the time the UAD plugin may take to react to the Automation. I'd assume in Logic UAD would have to use an Audio Unit plugin, whereas in cubase it would be VST. so one of the things which may be uncommon between the two DAWs is the plugin format in this case.

the waveform here doesn't look delayed after the automation, just that the head is chopped off. whereas before it, the waveform does look out of sync. that is curious. although maybe that is also equivalent to part of the waveforms FX also not being processed. as soon as the ramp down begins, the audio seems to not be able to be processed. it may be being unable to be processed in respect of the delay inherent to the plugin.

which indicates that some FX pre-processing in combination with the onset of the Automation, in some way may be being unable to be carried out. possibly because Logic may not use pre-processing or maybe because the AU format is a culprit or maybe the UAD AU plugin may be a culprit in that case.

so I guess, if it also occurred in other plugins which were not UAD, it may be some issue with AU as a format.
or potentially some lack of FX pre-processing in Logic.

this is all speculation off course but ..

Last edited by Muser; 6th February 2020 at 06:16 PM..
Old 7th February 2020
  #20
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by strumm View Post
Thanks, I was looking at the update for Soothe and saw this... very sad.

---

I have Logic, Protools, and Mixbuss32C...

I guess I should look into Cubase, I do love how Dorico is coming along.
What is this list? where did you find it?
Old 7th February 2020
  #21
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by oatmeel View Post
What is this list? where did you find it?
Sorry, that was a little vague... Soothe 2 uses external side chain, so needs external side chain PDC.

https://oeksound.com/support/externa...y-compensation
Old 7th February 2020
  #22
Gear Maniac
 
tedannemann's Avatar
 

Be careful this list only focuses on the side-chain signal compensation only, not on automation pdc (FL Studio is still missing) or plug-in host sync compensation (Ableton Live is still missing). And unfortunately Logic doesn't only misses the side-chain compensation but the automation compensation as well (depending on the channel type). In other words Logic 10.4.8 is objectively the worst of them by todays standards.
Old 7th February 2020
  #23
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tedannemann's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Muser View Post
it's hard to know that it's not the UAD plugins own behavior in reaction to the time the UAD plugin may take to react to the Automation. I'd assume in Logic UAD would have to use an Audio Unit plugin, whereas in cubase it would be VST. so one of the things which may be uncommon between the two DAWs is the plugin format in this case.

the waveform here doesn't look delayed after the automation, just that the head is chopped off. whereas before it, the waveform does look out of sync. that is curious. although maybe that is also equivalent to part of the waveforms FX also not being processed. as soon as the ramp down begins, the audio seems to not be able to be processed. it may be being unable to be processed in respect of the delay inherent to the plugin.

which indicates that some FX pre-processing in combination with the onset of the Automation, in some way may be being unable to be carried out. possibly because Logic may not use pre-processing or maybe because the AU format is a culprit or maybe the UAD AU plugin may be a culprit in that case.

so I guess, if it also occurred in other plugins which were not UAD, it may be some issue with AU as a format.
or potentially some lack of FX pre-processing in Logic.

this is all speculation off course but ..
No need for speculation. Automation is not plug-in compensated correctly. Did you read my first post in this thread? This has nothing to do with UAD or any manufacturer, automation is just not compensated. Different plug-ins behave differently (fades, attack times, reaction to the audio file etc.) but this doesn't change the fact that Logic is simply not compensating the automation for delay introduced through plug-ins. As I already wrote you can easily see that behaviour with Logic's own(!) Linear Phase EQ or Adaptive Limiter and a single parameter automation for example.
Old 7th February 2020
  #24
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Muser's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by tedannemann View Post
No need for speculation. Automation is not plug-in compensated correctly. Did you read my first post in this thread? This has nothing to do with UAD or any manufacturer, automation is just not compensated. Different plug-ins behave differently (fades, attack times, reaction to the audio file etc.) but this doesn't change the fact that Logic is simply not compensating the automation for delay introduced through plug-ins. As I already wrote you can easily see that behaviour with Logic's own(!) Linear Phase EQ or Adaptive Limiter and a single parameter automation for example.
oh so you are talking purely about Automation. I thought you just discounted Automation in light of your comment on Bumblebees Video. no matter. sometimes it's useful to try to figure out what might be broken and in what way. it may sometimes help clarify bug reports.

it may be that the Automation starts being calculated after the delay of a given plugin. because in your image, the Audio seems to start being cut off as soon as the onset of the Automation starts to begin. as if it could be switching behavior when a change starts to occur. if that occurs every time a change in Automation happens, however small, and doesn't happen when no change occurs, then that could be an important distinction to make. is what I was getting at.
Old 7th February 2020
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Muser View Post
oh so you are talking purely about Automation. I thought you just discounted Automation in light of your comment on Bumblebees Video. no matter. sometimes it's useful to try to figure out what might be broken and in what way. it may sometimes help clarify bug reports.

it may be that the Automation starts being calculated after the delay of a given plugin. because in your image, the Audio seems to start being cut off as soon as the onset of the Automation starts to begin. as if it could be switching behavior when a change starts to occur. if that occurs every time a change in Automation happens, however small, and doesn't happen when no change occurs, then that could be an important distinction to make. is what I was getting at.
Quote:
Here is a very primitive example. An EXS24 piano track that has a simple volume automation (of the plug-in itself). During the course of your production or later in the mix you decide to put on some UAD tape saturation. Now your automation (in this case) is off by a whole 16th note (2nd track should look like the 3rd track), which is totally unacceptable:
So, yes I'm talking about automation and I have no clue what you want to say to be honest?
In the picture you simply see that the automation is shifted(!) due to the delay introduced by the UAD plug-in. I'm not sure if you know how a PDC works? The signal itself is delayed due to the plug-in and later on it's "compensated" back to it's correct position in correlation with all other stuff going on in the DAW otherwise everything would be late and all over the place, right? Now the audio signal get's compensated for whatever latency is introduced (dragged back to the original position) but the automation (in the graphical sense) stays(!) and it's not dragged back = it's not getting compensated. That's what you see in this picture. However the explanation for the real time behaviour is different but to understand the screenshots, it helps to think of "dragging the signal and or the automation back to the correct position" after latency was needed for calculating stuff.
Old 7th February 2020
  #26
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tedannemann's Avatar
 

Ah, is it possible that you mean the first swallowed transit/notes at the star of bar 1?
Old 7th February 2020
  #27
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Muser's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by tedannemann View Post
So, yes I'm talking about automation and I have no clue what you want to say to be honest?
In the picture you simply see that the automation is shifted(!) due to the delay introduced by the UAD plug-in. I'm not sure if you know how a PDC works? The signal itself is delayed due to the plug-in and later on it's "compensated" back to it's correct position in correlation with all other stuff going on in the DAW otherwise everything would be late and all over the place, right? Now the audio signal get's compensated for whatever latency is introduced (dragged back to the original position) but the automation (in the graphical sense) stays(!) and it's not dragged back = it's not getting compensated. That's what you see in this picture. However the explanation for the real time behaviour is different but to understand the screenshots, it helps to think of "dragging the signal and or the automation back to the correct position" after latency was needed for calculating stuff.
Logic has two modes of PDC from what I recall, one where it moves the audio in the background early and one where it moves it late. so theoretically if the Automation stays put in either case, it may produce two different results, depending on which of the two modes of delay compensation is used. I'm not sure if those cases may have been validated or if it always produces a similar behavior in both cases.
Old 7th February 2020
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tedannemann View Post
Ah, is it possible that you mean the first swallowed transit/notes at the star of bar 1?
yes bar 1.
Old 10th February 2020
  #29
Here for the gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by tedannemann View Post
In my book it is Cubase, really everything, no matter how hard and crazy your routing is (busses, external equipment, side-chains, heavy latency plug-ins and instruments, host tempo synced plug-ins, recordings, external controller movements, ...) everything is nearly perfectly compensated.
I concur with this. Just use Cubase and all these problems go away and you can focus on the music.
To put this in context I am a long time Cubase user but also teach Logic at a university.
Old 10th February 2020
  #30
MJB
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Just got here. So, let's say I have a finished vocal and I automate a few volume changes. On the channel strip I have Apple's EQ to roll off some lows, R-De-esser, maybe UAD's LA2A or Logic's DBX compressor, and on busses A & B, reverb. Are you saying the vocal is no longer in sync?
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