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Serious old bug (Broken PDC) completely ignored by the Apple Logic X programmers!
Old 10th February 2020
  #31
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Muser's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJB View Post
Just got here. So, let's say I have a finished vocal and I automate a few volume changes. On the channel strip I have Apple's EQ to roll off some lows, R-De-esser, maybe UAD's LA2A or Logic's DBX compressor, and on busses A & B, reverb. Are you saying the vocal is no longer in sync?
I think he’s talking about the automation being in the wrong place in relation to the plugin delay compensation. e.g. the automation doesn't follow along with the PDC. so the automation is either out of place in any realtime condition and reveals that fact after a render, or it becomes out of place after a render.
Old 10th February 2020
  #32
MJB
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Thanks Muser. I see now. I've never noticed any issues when bouncing and I have plenty of 3rd party plug-ins, but that seems really messed up.

It is strange how so many issues reported to Apple seem to fall on deaf ears.
Old 10th February 2020
  #33
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it might be good for users to test these conditions and behaviors again in its own thread. or here. whichever. seems to me that a file which alternates between two types of waveforms could be a good test file. so if a file had one second of a square wave and then one second of sine wave, alternately, or 4 different waves over 4 beats of one bar at 120bpm. it might make it a little easier to calculate the effects. you should be able to see how the automation fades and shapes correlate to the amplitude of the waveform as well.
Old 10th February 2020
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MJB View Post
Thanks Muser. I see now. I've never noticed any issues when bouncing and I have plenty of 3rd party plug-ins, but that seems really messed up.

It is strange how so many issues reported to Apple seem to fall on deaf ears.
couple things if i may ...

1) remember when: PT delay compensation came to be and how drastic from off to ON the difference was !!! never wish to be without it .. so if the issues Logic are having are what we know as the Logic Sound .. when these things are Cleared up (no Pun) do you think we will HEar as Drastic Difference as the PT example ???

2) Track or Region Based Automation: for all of those that are trying to catch up on this Thread, is this issue the same with Track & Region Based Automation ??

thx for the info Slutz !!
Old 27th February 2020
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Muser View Post
yes bar 1.
This is the same offset because the automation is simply not compensated, so the start point of the automation itself is at the wrong position.
Old 27th February 2020
  #36
Gear Nut
 
tedannemann's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jwh1192 View Post
couple things if i may ...

1) remember when: PT delay compensation came to be and how drastic from off to ON the difference was !!! never wish to be without it .. so if the issues Logic are having are what we know as the Logic Sound .. when these things are Cleared up (no Pun) do you think we will HEar as Drastic Difference as the PT example ???
Yes. The same thing happened to Ableton Live (remember when everybody moaned about the wishy-wahsy sound?). A big problem was the missing PDC at all including automation, therefore you always had this mushy timing sound. The same project in newer versions sounded totally different, due to the tight timing (audio stream(!) as well as automation), dependent on the plug-ins used and the amount of automation, of course.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jwh1192 View Post
2) Track or Region Based Automation: for all of those that are trying to catch up on this Thread, is this issue the same with Track & Region Based Automation ??
Unfortunately this makes no difference. Automation is not plug-in delay compensated no matter if you are automating on a track or region base.
Old 27th February 2020
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tedannemann View Post
This is the same offset because the automation is simply not compensated, so the start point of the automation itself is at the wrong position.
one thing which could explain the similarity in the visual pattern at that zero bar position, is if Logic assumed a starting automation value of zero prior to the actual starting full scale Automation value at bar one. Full being what your automation begins at on bar one.

but in any case, it's probably cut off at the beginning because the PDC has shifted the audio ahead in that case, by whatever factor the delay works out at in the plugins. then when the Automation rises from zero and the Audio has the Automation applied, then when the Audio is rendering to show the affected waveform, what you see is what you got.

I think the other PDC mode in Logic has the Audio go later, but if the same issue of the Automation staying put persists in either case, it would just probably cut off the end of the Audio prior to the Automation, as opposed to the beginning of the Audio after it.
so probably same problem but just from a different direction, may well still occur.
Old 4th March 2020
  #38
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Transmisser's Avatar
 

Yikes. This is a bummer.

Just submitted a bug report.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #39
Gear Head
 

I just messed around with a friend's copy of Logic, put some heavy plug-ins and tried the automation in this DAW.
To be completely honest, I don't know how anyone produces any tracks with this program. It outright sucks. I don't know anything about Logic, but I was curious about it until I bumped into this thread. I tried Bounce in place and it is completely out of sync if you use latency inducing plugin like FabFilter Pro-L, so, massive distrust in that feature. Like, you guys are working on sounds making it perfect, and then bounce in place ****s the sound completely, changing phase relationship with other tracks. How can someone work like this??? I tried doing volume automations, and they sounded okay, only when I put Pro-Q3 on Linear phase - maximum it got completely ****ed, in Ableton Live on the other hand automation is smooth with the same plugin setting.

Massive limitations with this program. Sticking with Ableton Live.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #40
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Transmisser's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by oatmeel View Post
I just messed around with a friend's copy of Logic, put some heavy plug-ins and tried the automation in this DAW.
To be completely honest, I don't know how anyone produces any tracks with this program. It outright sucks. I don't know anything about Logic, but I was curious about it until I bumped into this thread. I tried Bounce in place and it is completely out of sync if you use latency inducing plugin like FabFilter Pro-L, so, massive distrust in that feature. Like, you guys are working on sounds making it perfect, and then bounce in place ****s the sound completely, changing phase relationship with other tracks. How can someone work like this??? I tried doing volume automations, and they sounded okay, only when I put Pro-Q3 on Linear phase - maximum it got completely ****ed, in Ableton Live on the other hand automation is smooth with the same plugin setting.

Massive limitations with this program. Sticking with Ableton Live.
Yeah I hate to say it, but I've been getting heavy into Ableton and Reaper since discovering this bug. It explains a lot of issues I've been having, but didn't quite understand. I'm completely sold on Ableton, but still unsure about Reaper. May give Studio One a try next though.

I really love Logic otherwise and hope they squash this. It's quite a serious issue IMO.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Transmisser View Post
Yeah I hate to say it, but I've been getting heavy into Ableton and Reaper since discovering this bug. It explains a lot of issues I've been having, but didn't quite understand. I'm completely sold on Ableton, but still unsure about Reaper. May give Studio One a try next though.

I really love Logic otherwise and hope they squash this. It's quite a serious issue IMO.
i will not be shelling out 199.00 for Logic XI until these issues are addressed ... i came here to Hide from Avid Man !!! what the hell !!!!
Old 4 weeks ago
  #42
Gear Maniac
I’m starting to feel logic x is an outdated buggy piece of software that’s just being dragged a long to sell mac computers to unknowing customers. I think how they’ve added new plugin skins and random distortion units from camelphat for instance it seems really there isn’t much of a plan or goal to this madness. I’m switching to studio one I’m done!
Old 4 weeks ago
  #43
Gear Head
 

OK, so I went ahead and downloaded Cubase 10.5 Elements to see if it is also a broken DAW, loaded a simple synth patch and automated the volume on and off every 1/4 note. So PDC works as expected and better than Logic, but if I put a latency inducing plug-in, Cubase sometimes creates glitchy pops (like you didn't crossfade audio clips), when I played it back it occurred randomly, sometime it happened, sometimes it didn't. I bounced the audio to and it bounced with a "pop" in the audio.

So far in my experience, only Ableton Live and Pro Tools are the only DAWS that are actually legitimate in regards to automation PDC and bouncing. Ableton has some weirdness because of the fact that every track is Stereo and automatically warped, I sometimes hear subtle changes in the audio if I play back the same region where there are a lot of edits going on with many audio clips. Pro Tools still is king in stability and trust in my experience. That's probably why it is standard, it has less glitchy weirdness than the other DAWs, but maybe because of that it also lacks in creativity and workflow.

EDIT: Just tried the exact same thing in Pro Tools and it also gets pops, even more actually... Ableton is the only program that crossfades zero-crossing automation???? so weird... it's like you gotta learn the super deep quirks of the DAW you choose lol
Old 4 weeks ago
  #44
Gear Maniac
Quote:
Originally Posted by oatmeel View Post
OK, so I went ahead and downloaded Cubase 10.5 Elements to see if it is also a broken DAW, loaded a simple synth patch and automated the volume on and off every 1/4 note. So PDC works as expected and better than Logic, but if I put a latency inducing plug-in, Cubase sometimes creates glitchy pops (like you didn't crossfade audio clips), when I played it back it occurred randomly, sometime it happened, sometimes it didn't. I bounced the audio to and it bounced with a "pop" in the audio.

So far in my experience, only Ableton Live and Pro Tools are the only DAWS that are actually legitimate in regards to automation PDC and bouncing. Ableton has some weirdness because of the fact that every track is Stereo and automatically warped, I sometimes hear subtle changes in the audio if I play back the same region where there are a lot of edits going on with many audio clips. Pro Tools still is king in stability and trust in my experience. That's probably why it is standard, it has less glitchy weirdness than the other DAWs, but maybe because of that it also lacks in creativity and workflow.

EDIT: Just tried the exact same thing in Pro Tools and it also gets pops, even more actually... Ableton is the only program that crossfades zero-crossing automation???? so weird... it's like you gotta learn the super deep quirks of the DAW you choose lol
Did you try studio one?
Old 4 weeks ago
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikola_Tesla View Post
...

route track “audio 1” over “bus 1” to “aux 1”

...

route “aux 1” over “bus 2” to “aux 2”
route track “audio 2” over “bus 3” to “aux 3”

...

When you say "route", are you routing via each channel strip's Output, or are you using any Sends ?
Old 3 weeks ago
  #46
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And the OMF consolidate open on LGPX? I HATE THIS!
Old 3 weeks ago
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanRand View Post
When you say "route", are you routing via each channel strip's Output, or are you using any Sends ?
route track “audio 1” over “bus 1” to “aux 1” - the BUS would be a Send ..

route “aux 1” over “bus 2” to “aux 2” - the BUS would be a Send ..

route track “audio 2” over “bus 3” to “aux 3” - the BUS would be a Send ..


sorry to jump in i did not see Tesla reply yet ...
Old 3 weeks ago
  #48
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You're probably right, but you can also route a channel strip's output to a bus.

If these are all sends, where is aux 1's channel strip output pointing to? Is he trying to parallel EQ audio track 1 and also feed bus 2/aux 2 with aux 1's send at the same time?

I'm just trying to understand his exact routings. I can understand the side chain being out of sync in aux 3's Compressor, but I'm not so clear if audio track 1 & audio track 2 are out of sync at his outputs. Or is the OP just hearing that the side chain is out of sync when listening to the Compressor's side chain using the Filter-Listen button?

Last edited by DanRand; 3 weeks ago at 03:39 AM..
Old 3 weeks ago
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanRand View Post
You're probably right, but you can also route a channel strip's output to a bus.

If these are all sends, where is aux 1's channel strip output pointing to? Is he trying to parallel EQ audio track 1 and also feed bus 2/aux 2 with aux 1's send at the same time?

I'm just trying to understand his exact routings. I can understand the side chain being out of sync in aux 3's Compressor, but I'm not so clear if audio track 1 & audio track 2 are out of sync at his outputs. Or is the OP just hearing that the side chain is out of sync when listening to the Compressor's side chain using the Filter-Listen button?
not really sure either ... you can do what they are talking about ... as you said, just trying to figure out why !!! standing by for answers !!!
Old 1 day ago
  #50
Here for the gear
 

I send 24 outs from logic X to my analog console. When a sending (from console) a group (let’s say drums) back to the daw using an auxiliary track for parallel compression, latency takes place!
The drum tracks are synced together (each track uses an individual output) but the auxiliary track signal comes a little bit later. And this is bad! This happens even if no plugin is on the aux track.
Old 15 hours ago
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miltos View Post
I send 24 outs from logic X to my analog console. When a sending (from console) a group (let’s say drums) back to the daw using an auxiliary track for parallel compression, latency takes place!
The drum tracks are synced together (each track uses an individual output) but the auxiliary track signal comes a little bit later. And this is bad! This happens even if no plugin is on the aux track.
does the same thing happen when you come back into an AUDIO channel instead of an AUX Channel ????

and its it the SAME each time .. or different values ???
Old 14 hours ago
  #52
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jwh1192 View Post
does the same thing happen when you come back into an AUDIO channel instead of an AUX Channel ????

and its it the SAME each time .. or different values ???
Yes! The same thing happens if I use aux or audio channel. I also used the I/O plugin to an audio channel tonight but nothing changed. I tested everything, buffers, cpu threads, delay compensation values... nothing!
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