The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
 All  This Thread  Reviews  Gear Database  Gear for sale     Latest  Trending
Why mess with EXS24?!
Old 31st August 2015
  #1
Lives for gear
 
whinecellar's Avatar
Why mess with EXS24?!

I am constantly amazed at people asking for an overhaul of EXS24. Seriously - why? Yes, it's not as in-depth as something like Kontakt. But that's already covered, and Kontakt is essentially a universal format these days, so anyone halfway serious already has it. If you want that kind of depth in a sampler, you already have it there.

EXS24, while admittedly more basic, has to be the most outrageously efficient sample player out there. You can add hundreds of them to a project without breaking a sweat.

Personally I'd be pissed if EXS24 got more complicated if that meant ANY hit to its efficiency. I wouldn't object to a slight readability overhaul in terms of GUI, but why are people so adamant about anything else? What am I missing? As someone who makes his living doing this, I'd reach for Kontakt in a heartbeat if I wanted advanced sampler features... like any other serious developer.

So, have at. I'd love to know what you think you're missing!

Thanks in advance ;-)
Old 31st August 2015
  #2
Lives for gear
 
Rufuss Sewell's Avatar
1. Probably so people don't have to pay for Kontakt. Remember Logic is a budget DAW at $199 so NI would add a big expense. Obviously people who use Kontakt don't care as much about EXS24.

2. It looks really dated and the programming features are limited and hard to see. All of those terrible interfaces with the tiny scrunched in fonts needs to be redesigned. I'm not sure what's taking them so long.

But I agree. One would hope Apple prioritizes EXS24's efficiency since that's the one thing it really does right.
Old 31st August 2015
  #3
Gear Head
 

Yeah i dont think were looking for a more complicated exs 24 as it already does essentially everything we need it to do, and for the more complicated tasks there are kontakt and even alchemy if your trying to manipulate samples. its just GUI changes for me that I want with the exs24 and the editor actually somehow in the gui not to mention built in sample browser like alchemy. Overall just a modernization, def wanting to see the waveform in the sampler directly too where we can visually see fades, crossfades, loop brackets, etc
Old 31st August 2015
  #4
Lives for gear
 
whinecellar's Avatar
Good points fellas - and I get those. I don't think it's a price point thing though, as the people asking for updates to EXS24 would kinda be more than beginners by default, no?
Old 1st September 2015
  #5
Gear Maniac
I think that updating the user interface to be more modern, and maybe added a few extra bells and whistles, would be more than enough.

It's not the easiest sampler to set up. Overhauling the UI should't effect the efficiency much, I wouldn't think and would make it a little easier to use. And as it's been said, once you have your samples set up - if you want to do complex things with them, plop them into Alchemy.

Though, I'm betting they are integrating the redmatica stuff in. I don't know what that will do to it's efficiency, but most of that was just UI stuff and didn't really effect the samples or sound design.
Old 1st September 2015
  #6
Lives for gear
 
whinecellar's Avatar
Yes indeed - I'd LOVE if they rolled in KeyMap and/or at least EXS Manager! I still occasionally have an EXS instrument that can't find its samples and I know they're there - very frustrating. Here's hoping!
Old 1st September 2015
  #7
It really just needs a better GUI. It was always ugly and confusing and it doesn't seem like it would take that much work to just come up with something clear and simple. It's very capable otherwise.
Old 1st September 2015
  #8
Tui
Gear Guru
 
Tui's Avatar
Unlimited polyphony. 64 voices in 2015..?

I love how easy it is to move samples around in EXS24, much, much easier than Kontakt. Also, changing velocities or pitch are a piece of cake in EXS24 but a right PITA in Kontakt. The same goes for ADSR curves: Everything is there, right in front of you and not hidden in some sub-menu.

If EXS24 was awarded a new, larger GUI I'd be very happy.
Old 1st September 2015
  #9
Lives for gear
 
Leevi's Avatar
 

As others have mentioned, for example the GUI is looking ancient.
Old 1st September 2015
  #10
Lives for gear
 
H-Rezz's Avatar
 

I agree with everybody here, I don't want EXS24 messed with outside of GUI improvements I have other samplers for that, but I would applaud a multi-timbral version, 16 midi channels should cover it, that way I can load kick banks, snare banks, hats etc without needing another instance...
Old 1st September 2015
  #11
Lives for gear
 

Here's what EXS24 looked like when it was first released in 2000 for Logic 4.3:




Here's how it looks 15 YEARS later in Logic Pro X:




The interface has hardly changed in all that time. Most of the updates shown (EXS24 MK2) were released in 2003 (Logic 5.5). I think they could make some improvements.
Old 1st September 2015
  #12
Gear Nut
 
Slapped's Avatar
 

I don't think EXS or any of the Logic legacy instruments are going to get anything more than maintainance updates just to keep them working with new versions of Logic. Personally I think Apple are moving forward with new instruments either developed themselves (Retro Synth) or bought (Borged) in, which leads me nicely into....

...Alchemy. Now I don't know much about Alchemy other than having used Alchemy Player in the past and having a quick play with the new Apple version this last weekend, but isn't Alchemy also a full blown sampler in it's own right? If it is then maybe Apple are considering it as the next version of EXS, and thus EXS development will be stalled apart from the previously mentioned maintainance updates.
Old 1st September 2015
  #13
Lives for gear
 
EastWest Lurker's Avatar
 

I would like them to add scripting capabilities so that more developers will be motivated to develop libraries for it again. Only a handful still do.
Old 1st September 2015
  #14
Hello all. I had to register here just to profess my love for the EXS24.

I agree with the OP. EXS24 is perfect at what is does, and to be honest I can't actually see a major update or change coming - so many of the pack-in technologies like the Drum Designer and so forth use the EXS in it's current incarnation.

I use it for drums all the time:
1. The editor has keyboard shortcuts - saves mousing around.

2. On my system at least, there's no faster way to rip though auditioning a series of samples. Ultrabeat and the audio manager are somehow more laggy.

3. Whilst using the editor, you can stop/start your song whilst the file browser is open. Try doing that with Ultrabeat...

4. Decided you don't like new samples whilst auditioning sounds? Hit escape > back to where you were.

5. The zone/group editor actually remembers where each sample is in the file system when you go to switch samples. For example, if you go to switch your kick, the audio browser will open in the folder containing that specific kick, so you can continue browsing, even if you've since moved elsewhere in the file system to grab other samples for other parts. (If I've explained that correctly..)

6. And the best..I love the fact that multiple instances of the plugin (on multiple tracks) can reference the same sampler file. Great for drums on multiple tracks using the same kit.

It's a hidden gem, but I guess looks imposing to a newcomer, hence why we have stuff like the Drum Machine Designer.

Changes? A new GUI would't go amiss, better zooming (and a touch of love) in the editor would also be welcome. And if I'm being really spoilt, some sort of basic time stretching..
Old 1st September 2015
  #15
Lives for gear
 
whinecellar's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by EastWest Lurker View Post
I would like them to add scripting capabilities so that more developers will be motivated to develop libraries for it again. Only a handful still do.
But why, Jay? Seriously, just curious. Kontakt is firmly established as king for that kind of stuff; ALL the major developers are in that camp. I can see a GUI refinement as many have asked for, but why complicate the underpinnings of EXS24 when those advanced needs have already been filled? I don't know about you, but I don't miss sample format wars... I'm glad devs can focus on one engine that works, and works well.

Now, if they roll in Redmatica's AutoSampler, EXS Manager and KeyMap as "accessories" to EXS24, that would be amazing ;-)

Just my $.02!
Old 1st September 2015
  #16
Lives for gear
 
EastWest Lurker's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by whinecellar View Post
But why, Jay? Seriously, just curious. Kontakt is firmly established as king for that kind of stuff; ALL the major developers are in that camp. I can see a GUI refinement as many have asked for, but why complicate the underpinnings of EXS24 when those advanced needs have already been filled? I don't know about you, but I don't miss sample format wars... I'm glad devs can focus on one engine that works, and works well.

Now, if they roll in Redmatica's AutoSampler, EXS Manager and KeyMap as "accessories" to EXS24, that would be amazing ;-)

Just my $.02!
Because:

1. The EXS24 is part of the Logic code and will therefore presumably never have a version that is incompatible with Logic and the Mac OS. I don't have the same level of faith with N.I. and Kontakt.

2. I HATE the Kontakt browser. And the output assignment scheme is bat guano crazy and cumbersome. And re-linking moved libraries is also a bit of a PITA. (All of those factors btw are MUCH better in the often reviled Play sample player.)

3. We saw with the demise of Gigastudio what happens when 1 sample engine becomes too dominant and ubiquitous.
Old 1st September 2015
  #17
Tui
Gear Guru
 
Tui's Avatar
Kontakt hasn't really been updated is as many years either. Sure, they've added little features here and there, but fundamentally, nothing much has changed.

The browser is indeed terrible, in a prehistoric, windowsy kind of way.
Old 1st September 2015
  #18
Lives for gear
 
EastWest Lurker's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tui View Post
Kontakt hasn't really been updated is as many years either. Sure, they've added little features here and there, but fundamentally, nothing much has changed.

The browser is indeed terrible, in a prehistoric, windowsy kind of way.
Well, to give N.I. credit it has been improved, especially the time stretching abilities.

I am a Kontakt beta tester so in no way am I anti-Kontakt. I am just leery of one sample engine being this dominant and also, I love the way the EXS24 works and would like to see it return to one of the platforms that a bunch of developers develop for, as was true years ago.
Old 1st September 2015
  #19
Tui
Gear Guru
 
Tui's Avatar
Sure, monocultures are never healthy. In fact, if there *was* a credible competitor to Kontakt, I'd expect NI to make more of an effort to improve on Kontakt's shortcomings.
Old 2nd September 2015
  #20
Gear Nut
 

Agree 100% with OP... EXS is a wonder... So fast to duplicate a track and quickly map out another drum pattern. Can have dozens if not hundreds open with no issues. No bugs.

GUI update would be nice though. I love the new logic compressor since the update a while back, and it's essentially the same with a GUI update. So an EXS with a graphic overhaul that does the same thing (and doesn't tax the CPU any more) would be awesome!
Old 3rd September 2015
  #21
Gear Head
 

kontakt-grade time stretching and a beat slicer. and new UI wouldn't hurt. i'd be 100% satisfied.
Old 3rd September 2015
  #22
Gear Head
 

To answer: Is Alchemy technically a new EXS?

- Well, most users on this thread have voiced how much they love EXS 24 instruments efficiency. This is something that alchemy just can't compete with because it has a lot going on under the hood. However, there are certain things Alchemy is going to be better at being a sample player for, specifically the more complex of material you are importing, you should lean towards alchemy then exs. Certain sample modes in alchemy are better for pitch stretching and other things. I think users want a easy to use sampler that doesn't go this deep, one that only goes as deep as EXS for efficiency. Alchemy is therefore just something else than EXS as it a synth too. It is not a viable replacement for a simple, sampler. IF that is what the users want. But if you are cool with complex and have a good CPU then by all means, Alchemy can be a replacement for you. I just don't see myself building "normal" drum kits in alchemy ever. I could see myself building very glitchy fx-ey kits in it, but not a normal drum kit. What is also great, is that alchemy can import exs patches so they kinda co-habitate together which means if logic releases new strings in exs we get them in alchemy, and we can take them a different direction in alchemy then we did in exs.. which means we can as users too. I think it would be smart for apple to keep it like this, as you can create whatever in exs and if you don't think your doing enough with it just save the exs patch and load it into alchemy and take it further.


Alchemy is just another tool in a samplers arsenal
Old 5th September 2015
  #23
Gear Addict
I just need to be able to see the GUI main screen better. It's pretty hard for me.
Old 6th September 2015
  #24
Lives for gear
 
charlieclouser's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tgreer View Post
I just need to be able to see the GUI main screen better. It's pretty hard for me.
You can resize the EXS main screen to be smaller or bigger by simply dragging the lower-left corner of the window, or choosing a zoom percentage from the pop-up in the upper right. I use a 4k monitor so the EXS main window is TINY, until I resize it to 150% or so.

To the point of the thread - I love EXS, but if I had to make a wishlist, it would be:

- Time-stretching / pitch manipulation. Maybe a simple toggle labelled "keep time constant" with a pop-up for what type of time-stretch algorithm you want to use - but now that we have Alchemy it's a simple matter to just bring EXS Instruments into it for time and pitch manipulation. Still, it would be handy to have a basic set of time and pitch controls right on the front panel of EXS.

- A "fundamental kill" filter type. Essentially a notch filter that would track the keyboard at 100% so you could emphasize (or de-emphasize) the fundamental of samples. This would let you reduce the "sine wave" aspect of a sound and bring out the scrapey stuff in a bowed string sample for instance. You'd need some tuning controls, like octave offset, pitch center, and fine tune, but it should track the keyboard at exactly 100%. I've tried Surfer EQ from Sound Radix, which works well, but what I'm talking about would be on a per-voice level, as opposed to operating on the summed output of a polyphonically-played EXS patch. Similar principle, but "polyphonic" instead of "monophonic".
Old 6th September 2015
  #25
Lives for gear
 
whinecellar's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by charlieclouser View Post
- A "fundamental kill" filter type. Essentially a notch filter that would track the keyboard at 100% so you could emphasize (or de-emphasize) the fundamental of samples...
What a great idea Charlie! That would be awesome for sound design...
Old 6th September 2015
  #26
Gear Addict
 
djstyleee's Avatar
 

1. Definitely a redesigned GUI

2. It would be nice if each sample had its own front panel controls (rather than using offsets). The front panel updated when you pressed the corrosponding MIDI note like Ultrabeat

I have not used the EXS for quite some time now but always enjoyed using it in the past.
Old 7th September 2015
  #27
We must remember that Apple did not create Logic nor the EXS sampler. They bought it from Emagic who IMHO, did a much better job of updating the software. Apple has totally abandoned it's pro users and to expect them to suddenly give 2 craps about pro-users of Logic is very wishful thinking indeed. I'm still using Pro Studio 9 because 10 looks more like Garage Band AND after several years of buying Logic upgrades, I'm now required to buy both the full version of Logic 10 AND upgrade my OS just to run it.
So to stay on topic, I like the EXS24 GUI (maybe because I'm so used to it) and find it the easiest software sampler to build sample programs from scratch. I agree with those who dislike the Kontakt browser . . . THAT is an ancient artifact not to mention very difficult to load new or moved libraries.
Both EXS and Kontakt have their strong points, so like many other devices that we use . . . we are forced to have multiple products from different companies in order to get the job done. Part of the fun, isn't it?
Old 7th September 2015
  #28
Lives for gear
 
whinecellar's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by newsound View Post
Apple has totally abandoned it's pro users and to expect them to suddenly give 2 craps about pro-users of Logic is very wishful thinking indeed.
Um, really?!? Have you seen the updates/new features/bug fix lists of just Logic X alone??? They're rather lengthy for a company who doesn't seem interested in supporting their investment in a product...
Old 7th September 2015
  #29
Lives for gear
 
EastWest Lurker's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by newsound View Post
We must remember that Apple did not create Logic nor the EXS sampler. They bought it from Emagic who IMHO, did a much better job of updating the software. Apple has totally abandoned it's pro users and to expect them to suddenly give 2 craps about pro-users of Logic is very wishful thinking indeed. I'm still using Pro Studio 9 because 10 looks more like Garage Band AND after several years of buying Logic upgrades, I'm now required to buy both the full version of Logic 10 AND upgrade my OS just to run it.
So to stay on topic, I like the EXS24 GUI (maybe because I'm so used to it) and find it the easiest software sampler to build sample programs from scratch. I agree with those who dislike the Kontakt browser . . . THAT is an ancient artifact not to mention very difficult to load new or moved libraries.
Both EXS and Kontakt have their strong points, so like many other devices that we use . . . we are forced to have multiple products from different companies in order to get the job done. Part of the fun, isn't it?
Are you aware that it is the same core group of former Emagic Germans that still develop Logic Pro?

I can tell you from personal interaction that while Apple is clearly focused more on GarageBand updaters and EDM folks and the Logic Pro developers have to be responsive to what is asked of them, they certainly DO still care about pro users.
Old 8th September 2015
  #30
Apple no longer "pro?"

Quote:
Originally Posted by EastWest Lurker View Post
Are you aware that it is the same core group of former Emagic Germans that still develop Logic Pro?
No . . . I was NOT aware . . . and quite surprised. My issue has been trying to get them to fix a bug with the key command feature.

Quote:
I can tell you from personal interaction that while Apple is clearly focused more on GarageBand updaters and EDM folks and the Logic Pro developers have to be responsive to what is asked of them, they certainly DO still care about pro users.
I don't doubt what your are saying, but my personal interactions have not been so positive. It seems through the years that Apple is more interested in iPhones than the pro users who helped make them what they are today.

BTW . . . I use EWQL Symphonic Orchestra and I love it.
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Forum Jump
Forum Jump