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Printing Back Into Logic X from Outboard
Old 3rd August 2015
  #1
Printing Back Into Logic X from Outboard

I use a hybrid setup here and always print it back into Logic for the sake of recall. BUT I'm not sure if the delay compensation is not working right or something, I always have to nudge the track after it prints back into the DAW.

I don't use a BUS to print, but arm a new track and select the input to whatever is coming in from the hardware.

For example let's say I use a hardware 1176 on bass as an I/O insert on the channel strip, the input is Ch 4 on my converters. After dialing in the settings on the hardware, I'll create a new track select Ch 4 as the input and record it back in.

Is there any setting in Logic to compensate for this or should I just use a a print bus?
Old 4th August 2015
  #2
Gear Nut
 
Ognjan's Avatar
 

No compensation on inputs, of course.
Small "latency" that occurs is from AD-DA roundtrip... you have to adjust it manually.
Old 4th August 2015
  #3
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Realtime Bounce if you can. Don't think I've ever seen a realtime bounce out of sync, providing everything sounds in sync in your monitors.

Otherwise, record through a Bus if the I/O plugin is inserted on an audio/instrument channel strip, or an Aux.

If the I/O plugin is inserted on an Output channel strip (not recommended), then record direct from the same input(s) you have set in the I/O plugin (not through a bus). But this won't work if you have any latency inducing plugins on an aux, or if your plugin (PDC) latency is less than a roundtrip, or if your plugin (PDC) latency is greater than a roundtrip and the I/O plugin you're trying to record from is not the first latency inducing plugin on that output, or if the hardware connected to the I/O plugin has any (digital) processing latency. So, recording from an I/O plugin on an Output only works in a few very restrictive cases, and you must record direct from an input.

In all other cases, record through a bus. Or realtime bounce.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ognjan View Post
No compensation on inputs, of course.
Not sure what you mean?

Last edited by DanRand; 4th August 2015 at 03:11 AM..
Old 4th August 2015
  #4
Gear Maniac
If you are using outboard thru the hardware insert io plugin, are you pinging the roundtrip?

Btw.. While I don't really use the Logic IO plug,I run a hybrid setup with logic and its 'fiddly' to say the least.
On large sessions I've resorted to finger crossing and positive thinking.
Old 7th August 2015
  #5
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gutr2's Avatar
 

I always have a ping in the original track that goes out and gets recorded back. I then align the recorded ping with the original.
For me using the ping function within the IO plugin always makes the playback coherent enough to tweak the outboard processing.
Old 7th August 2015
  #6
Gear Addict
 

When using the I/O plugin in Logic, I always use the ping to get the playback synced up.

However, like you, when you print back in, it is always out of sync - I've never found a way to prevent that.

I just knock it back in sync using SoundRadix Auto-Align.
Old 7th August 2015
  #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanRand View Post
Otherwise, record through a Bus if the I/O plugin is inserted on an audio/instrument channel strip, or an Aux.
Forgot to say, when you record the return signal from an I/O plugin on an Aux/send, you must feed the bus from the Aux channel strip that the I/O plugin is inserted on, using the Aux's send or output.

You can't use an Input object to feed the bus, and you can't use another (input) Aux to feed the bus, and you can't us another audio track to feed the bus.

Logic correctly compensates for the latency only when you feed the bus from the Aux the I/O plugin is inserted on*, and it doesn't matter if the audio stream goes through latency inducing plugins before the I/O plugin. So, recording from an I/O plugin on an Aux is far simpler if you feed a bus from that Aux channel strip and record from that bus.


Also, again, when the I/O plugin is inserted on an Aux, you can* record direct from an input (not through a bus), but you have to follow the same restrictions I listed for recording from an I/O plugin that's inserted onto an Output:

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanRand View Post
... this won't work if you have any latency inducing plugins on an aux, or if your plugin (PDC) latency is less than a roundtrip, or if your plugin (PDC) latency is greater than a roundtrip and the I/O plugin you're trying to record from is not the first latency inducing plugin on that output, or if the hardware connected to the I/O plugin has any (digital) processing latency. So, recording from an I/O plugin on an Output only works in a few very restrictive cases, and you must record direct from an input.
From the quote above:

"... this won't work if you have any latency inducing plugins on an aux"

I didn't write that very clearly. It just means none of the signals going to that output (or aux) can have any latency inducing plugins before the I/O plugin that's inserted on that output (or aux). In other words, an I/O plugin on an output/aux must be the first latency inducing plugin the audio stream encounters, after the audio/instrument track stage. Then you can record the I/O plugin's return direct from an input, providing the restrictive conditions in the quote above apply.

But as I said above, when recording from an I/O plugin on an Aux (not output), just feed a bus from that Aux, and record it onto an audio track. It's a lot easier than trying to work out if you've got any latency inducing plugins in the signals path prior to the aux's I/O plugin you're trying to record from.

Latency inducing plugins on audio/instrument tracks are fine, they won't affect the latency compensation in any way. You just can't have any latency inducing plugins on an aux (or output) prior to the I/O plugin you're trying to record, unless you record from a bus that is being fed by an "I/O" Aux's send or output.

Last edited by DanRand; 7th August 2015 at 02:16 PM..
Old 9th August 2015
  #8
Lives for gear
 

From a thread over on LPH:


Recording an I/O Plugin's Return Signal


Here's how I think it works, depending on which type of channel strip you have the I/O plugin inserted on. Let's start off with an easy one...


Recording an I/O Plugin from an Audio or Instrument channel strip

Simply route the Audio or Instrument channel strip to a bus via it's send, and use another audio track to record from that bus. You can have latency inducing plugins before and after the I/O plugin in you want, but if you want to record a completely *dry* return signal, you'll have to bypass any plugins inserted after the I/O plugin.

With audio/instrument channel strips, you cannot record direct from the inputs you've set in the I/O plugin. You must record through a bus, or you'll get recordings that are a minimum of a roundtrip early.


Recording an I/O Plugin from an Output

Recording a dry return signal from an I/O plugin that's inserted onto an output channel strip only works* if the following tough restrictions are met:
  1. You've correctly tested and set your Recording Delay in Preferences > Audio. (see Recording Delay Test)

  2. You record direct from the same inputs that you've configured in the I/O plugin. You must record the return signal direct from inputs, you cannot record through a bus.

  3. The I/O plugin must be the first latency inducing plugin on the output. Also, you can't have any tracks that route signals through a latency inducing plugin on an aux before the output hosting the I/O plugin. In other words, all signals currently routed to that output must be latency free prior to the output's I/O plugin. And bypassing any latency inducing plugins prior to the I/O plugin won't help, you have to completely remove them. This is why recording an I/O plugin on an output is so restrictive.

    Latency inducing plugins on audio or instrument channel strips are fine, they won't affect recording alignment. Latency inducing plugins inserted on to the output after the I/O plugin also have no effect on recording alignment. You just can't have any aux/output plugin latency before the I/O plugin.


  4. The latency through an output's I/O plugin must be exactly the same as your normal roundtrip, which probably means you can only record the return signal sample accurately when using zero latency outboard (i.e. analogue). If the I/O plugin's latency is higher than a roundtrip you'll get late recordings, and if less than a roundtrip you'll get early recordings.

    * If you don't mind a small recording misalignment (due to say 1 - 2 ms of digital processing latency), then you can also record the return from non-analogue outboard that has AD/DA conversion and processing latency. It really depends on wether you want sample accuracy or not and how high the outboard processing latency is.

I personally never put I/O plugins or other latency inducing plugins on outputs anyway, because it's caused me too many (seemingly) unpredictable problems in the past. I've just included it here for completeness, and because the restrictions above can also sometimes apply when recording from an I/O plugin on an Aux:


Recording an I/O Plugin from an Aux - Method 1 (restrictive, record from inputs)

This method also allows you to record a completely dry I/O plugin return signal direct from the same inputs set in the I/O plugin. But exactly the same restrictions (1-4 above) that apply to recording the return signal from an output's I/O plugin, also apply to recording from an aux's I/O plugin (unless you use the easier method 2 below).

So, if you want to use this method, the roundtrip through the aux's I/O plugin must be exacty the same as your normal roundtrip (4), and you can't have any other latency inducing plugins in the signal's path before the aux's I/O plugin (3), etc.

The only real advantage I can see with this method is that it allows you to record the dry signal when you have plugins inserted after the I/O plugin, and you don't want to bypass those plugins (see below).


Recording an I/O Plugin from an Aux - Method 2 (almost foolproof, record via bus)

Simply, send (or output) to a bus directly from the aux that the I/O plugin is inserted on, and record from that bus*.

This is much easier than method 1, because you don't need to worry if the signals you're routing through the aux's I/O plugin have already incurred latency prior to reaching the aux; and you can also freely insert latency inducing plugins before the I/O plugin (on the same aux). Also, you don't need to worry if the trip through the I/O plugin isn't an exact roundtrip, so can also sample accurately record (digital) outboard that has processing latency.

If you want to record a completely dry return signal, just bypass any plugins inserted onto the aux after the I/O plugin (if any).

* You must feed the bus from the aux channel strip that the I/O plugin is inserted on, using the send (or output). You can't feed the bus from an input monitored Audio Track (i.e. Input > Bus), and you can't feed the bus from another (Input) Aux, and you can't feed the bus from an Input Object. This method only seems to work if you feed the bus from the actual aux the I/O plugin is on - this had me baffled for a while.


Realtime Bouncing

For every test I ran, I also soloed the aux or output and did a realtime bounce. Perfectly accurate every single time.

The problem with realtime bouncing, apart from not being able to multi-track record, is that you can only get a dry recording if you bypass all plugins after the I/O plugin, including plugins on later auxes and outputs.

But, if you're pressed for time and need to print the I/O plugin's return when all other methods are out of sync, it'll give you sample accurate recordings every time. They certainly wrote the Bounce code very well.

--------

So that's my current understanding of the subject.
Old 20th April 2016
  #9
Here for the gear
 
pepe44's Avatar
 

Smile Workaround

HI, i´ve been using logic for a few months, been a long time pro tools user.
I had the same problem when printing tracks from external gear, it all came with phase problems and i had to find a better way then nudging things around all the time.

What i ended up doing was simply placing the i/o plugin on a track or bus, sending to the patchbay , doing my things ( create new audio track for the printed signal , send the original tracks to a new bus - i use Bus 56 on Logic for all my printing ( area 56 style sounded good for the task, ehhehe, - insert the i/o plugin on the sending bus channels, tweak knobs on outboard, setting levels for recording and hit record)

The workaround is just when i press ping on the plugin i find the number os samples that its delayed then go to the Logic preferences on the audio tab and then where it says "recording delay" i set the inverse number ( if the ping shows +109 samples i place - ( minus ) 109 on the recording delay, this solved for everything i print back to Logic, It all comes back in sync when i play the original tracks with the printed version. This worked for me.




Hope this helps.

Old 29th May 2019
  #10
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XKAudio's Avatar
 

Are there any new workarounds for this?

Would be amazing to be able to "print all hardware", place the plugins after the i/o plugins on a new track and move on.

Thanks for the help.
Old 29th May 2019
  #11
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Strobian's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by XKAudio View Post
Are there any new workarounds for this?

Would be amazing to be able to "print all hardware", place the plugins after the i/o plugins on a new track and move on.

Thanks for the help.
I don't have any problems now that I have a thunderbolt interface. I can print using the I/O plugin on a bus or master with no issues. I do also use the realtime bounce and everything is pretty much spot on. I have a MacBook pro and Apollo 8, average specs really. I used to hate this about logic, delay compensation never worked right for me, and I was always nudging and eventually sold a lot of hardware. This works incredibly well for me now. I use it with an analog compressor and also effects unit with no problems.
Old 29th May 2019
  #12
So for someone thats been using Logic nearly 20 years, what the hell is the point of using the I/O plugin?? I STILL dont get this (kinda like VCAs hehe).. What is the advantage of doing it with the I/O plugin as opposed to either just exporting/bouncing the tracks to files or routing tracks to a hardware output and bringing them back in that way?

Maybe I need to get out the 'manual' again haha.
Old 29th May 2019
  #13
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Strobian's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monotremata View Post
So for someone thats been using Logic nearly 20 years, what the hell is the point of using the I/O plugin?? I STILL dont get this (kinda like VCAs hehe).. What is the advantage of doing it with the I/O plugin as opposed to either just exporting/bouncing the tracks to files or routing tracks to a hardware output and bringing them back in that way?

Maybe I need to get out the 'manual' again haha.
The I/O plugin has the routing assignments in them. If you put the I/O plugin on your drum bus for example, you can select which inputs and outputs your hardware is hooked up to. I've made presets so I can just select "API 2500" and go. Its just what I have gotten used to. You can monitor it that way while your working or hit realtime bounce.
Old 17th June 2019
  #14
Gear Nut
 

Hi all,
This thread has been helpful. I am temporarily using a two computer setup and wondering what is the best solution to use my outboard.

Basically the signal flow is: laptop with converter A feeding audio to outboard chain, and finally last unit in outboard chain is connected to converter B of computer 2.

What is the best I/O solution setup in logic ? Both converters are the apogee ensemble thunderbolt and both computers are running logic. Please don’t recommend any other cable routing options as it’s not possible at the moment. Thank you
Old 28th August 2019
  #15
Gear Head
Quote:
Originally Posted by Strobian View Post
I don't have any problems now that I have a thunderbolt interface. I can print using the I/O plugin on a bus or master with no issues. I do also use the realtime bounce and everything is pretty much spot on. I have a MacBook pro and Apollo 8, average specs really. I used to hate this about logic, delay compensation never worked right for me, and I was always nudging and eventually sold a lot of hardware. This works incredibly well for me now. I use it with an analog compressor and also effects unit with no problems.
Hi Strobian

Can you tell me a bit more about how to route all the tracks at the same time to the hardware Mix-Buss compressor. I have the Logic pro X I / O plugin ready with settings: IN 7-8, OUT 7-8. And I can do this with a single track.
But how to route all the tracks simultaneously to the mix-bus compressor.
Can you give step by step help?
1. So what kind of stripes do I need to create to routing?
2. Where you then put the I/O plugin?
3. To what kind of strip I record the mix.
4. How I listen to turns processing and unprossessed signal?

P.S I examined many tutorials and threads but did not find the answer.
Thanks for advance
Johannes
Old 29th August 2019
  #16
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Strobian's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johannes w1 View Post
Hi Strobian

Can you tell me a bit more about how to route all the tracks at the same time to the hardware Mix-Buss compressor. I have the Logic pro X I / O plugin ready with settings: IN 7-8, OUT 7-8. And I can do this with a single track.
But how to route all the tracks simultaneously to the mix-bus compressor.
Can you give step by step help?
1. So what kind of stripes do I need to create to routing?
2. Where you then put the I/O plugin?
3. To what kind of strip I record the mix.
4. How I listen to turns processing and unprossessed signal?

P.S I examined many tutorials and threads but did not find the answer.
Thanks for advance
Johannes
If you are looking to put everything into one stem then the easy route is to put the I/O plugin on the Master Fader. Logic allows you to process the master channel in the same way as the individual. I do something like placing an EQ cut around 20hz in the first slot, then the I/O plugin. Bounce that down in Realtime, then import back into your project, (or you can select it to add it automatically).

You will hear the processing in realtime, so basically turn the plugin off to hear the unprocessed. This isn't a parallel method if that is what you are looking for.
Old 29th August 2019
  #17
Gear Head
Quote:
Originally Posted by Strobian View Post
If you are looking to put everything into one stem then the easy route is to put the I/O plugin on the Master Fader. Logic allows you to process the master channel in the same way as the individual. I do something like placing an EQ cut around 20hz in the first slot, then the I/O plugin. Bounce that down in Realtime, then import back into your project, (or you can select it to add it automatically).

You will hear the processing in realtime, so basically turn the plugin off to hear the unprocessed. This isn't a parallel method if that is what you are looking for.
Ok. The I/O on the master for all the individual tracks.
Then start the mixing into the mix-buss compressor as normally: (not want to use the parallel method this time)

Thanks Strobian. I try it. Will let you know.

EDIT: Quick test. It seems to be really easy. And if I understand correctly, you can use multiple I / O plugin instances: one for compressor, one for EQ etc. when the I/O plugin is on a master buss.
Old 30th August 2019
  #18
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Strobian's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johannes w1 View Post
Ok. The I/O on the master for all the individual tracks.
Then start the mixing into the mix-buss compressor as normally: (not want to use the parallel method this time)

Thanks Strobian. I try it. Will let you know.

EDIT: Quick test. It seems to be really easy. And if I understand correctly, you can use multiple I / O plugin instances: one for compressor, one for EQ etc. when the I/O plugin is on a master buss.
Yes you can use multiple I/O anywhere in Logic inserts like this. Once you try it a few times you'll understand how it works better, but yes super easy. I have the lowest latency with Thunderbolt connection.
Old 30th August 2019
  #19
Gear Head
Quote:
Originally Posted by Strobian View Post
Yes you can use multiple I/O anywhere in Logic inserts like this. Once you try it a few times you'll understand how it works better, but yes super easy. I have the lowest latency with Thunderbolt connection.
Thanks again.
Old 8th September 2019
  #20
Gear Addict
 

I've only been able to get exact i/o plug ping compensation by sending the source audio track to a bus, putting the i/o plug on that aux strip, outputting that aux to ANOTHER bus, and recording from that bus to a new audio track. It's incredibly stupid and cumbersome, but it works perfectly even on percussion. When I tried using one bus, it was out of sync. Obvious the i/o plug doesn't work correctly on an audio track.

Has anyone actually solved this more elegantly and with perfect accuracy 100% of the time (as in, you can use it on hi-hats without flanging, like my two bus method accomplishes)?

I've never done realtime bouncing. What it is the method to get perfect alignment that way?

Edit: figured out the realtime bounce method after some stress and cursing. The trick is to switch the main stereo output strip to mono. Seems to work in perfect sync.
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