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CM3 - really THAT good?
Old 4th June 2019
  #1951
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elpillo's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
The little CM3 continues to score goals....this time as an XY spot pair on baroque voices at a local concert last week...links below. Did I hear a rumour of new Line Audio product not too far off over the horizon ?

https://vimeo.com/339928838 (...from 3:08 onwards)
https://vimeo.com/339689256

Are you talking about the CM4? If so, it's already listed on the site

http://www.lineaudio.se/CM4.html

Seems to be "more cardioid" than the CM3. If that's the case, I think I'll stick to my CM3's
Old 4th June 2019
  #1952
Quote:
Originally Posted by elpillo View Post
Are you talking about the CM4? If so, it's already listed on the site
Wow! CM4, true cardioid pattern versus the wide cardioid of the CM3. Very interesting. Thank you for adding the link. I did not know about this.
Old 5th June 2019
  #1953
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Puffer Fish View Post
Wow! CM4, true cardioid pattern versus the wide cardioid of the CM3. Very interesting. Thank you for adding the link. I did not know about this.
On the NoHype site it lists the CM-4 as sub-cardioid, and a replacement for the discontinued CM-3.
Old 5th June 2019
  #1954
Gear Maniac
 

on the Line Audio website it calls it a 'slightly wide cardioid' in the specs! The polar pattern does show more of a rear null than the CM3 polar pattern, and it has the slightly higher output that the OM-1 has, which is welcome. If the 'voicing' is similar they'll be good stuff.
Old 5th June 2019
  #1955
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James Lehmann's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jpgerard View Post
Hush.
JP,

Now that the new Line Audio CM4 is 'out in the open', so to speak, can you please give us the full run down on the differences with the CM3, and whether the CM4 can be considered as a like-for-like replacement for the CM3, or a whole new mic in its own right.

What factors brought about the discontinuation of the CM3 and what is the thinking behind the new CM4?

Obviously this thread is testament to how much interest there is in Line Audio products, so curious minds (and customers) want to know! I was about to pop for a pair of CM3s but now I'm not sure what to do...

Thanks!
Old 5th June 2019
  #1956
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jpgerard's Avatar
Just keep it secret, OK? Haha... no, really, Roger cannot deal with a spike in demand right now.

From him:

"The CM4 is designed around a new capsule using the same criteria as for the CM3, the reason why they both look and sounds very much alike. It is a great replacement and companion to the CM3. While designing the CM4 special efforts were made refining the off axis behavior, while maintaining the on axis response flat and uncolored for that very high quality, natural sound that the CM3 is known for."

What happened is that the company making the main CM3 capsule part decided to stop doing so... Roger asked for a final batch, managed to get a decent quantity in but after QC there were not many CM3's to be made so it pushed the CM4 forward. The CM4 is not a new design: it's meant to replace the CM3 and yield the same results. The new complete capsule was then designed from the ground up and after a lot of tinkering Roger came up with a mic based on the CM3 headamp but slightly modified, optimized for the new capsule, and the new capsule but after some iterations with different bodies, the CM3 body was retained. Here are the "improvements", or if you like, side-effects of the new design:
* Slightly hotter output
* Slightly more focused polar response
You'll see the polar response difference in the published graphs.
Audible differences? Not an easy question to answer. I took notes and asked Roger who said that indeed there's a very slight (again) difference in the low mids, the CM4 being even flatter (the CM3 has a tiny (half dB peak) broad rise in that region) and also the mid (2K area) where the CM4 is again flatter (we're still talking about a 0,5dB peak, folks) so if you A/B compare for a few minutes you'll start to hear it. Needless to say - in practice this is negligible. Pretty sure you could mix and match CM3 and CM4 in a session and have no idea which is which once their gains are matched.
Noise floor is the same.
Accessories are the same.
Price... is the same!
So same mic, perhaps a hair (split hair) flatter still and a bit more controlled pattern, but I didn't have a chance to test this properly.
Again: The CM4 is not a new design but a follow-up to the CM3 which couldn't be made anymore due to a critical part being out of production.
So those looking for a CM3 can buy a CM4 with confidence.
The slightly hotter output may rejoice some though
Old 5th June 2019
  #1957
Gear Head
Recent live entertainer program. CM3 set up at last minute, rather close. Just the piano mics, no eq or reverb added.
Attached Thumbnails
CM3 - really THAT good?-cm3-position.jpg  
Attached Files
Old 5th June 2019
  #1958
Gear Head
A pair of CM4 will arrive in my mail early next week.
Old 5th June 2019
  #1959
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by blanneau View Post
Recent live entertainer program. CM3 set up at last minute, rather close. Just the piano mics, no eq or reverb added.
Lovely, if a bit dry (though I can see why). I've not heard such a unique interpretation of that well-known Nocturne, especially with liberties in the left hand. Nice job.
Old 6th June 2019
  #1960
Gear Head
It takes moderate verb well and slight mid-side widening. The widening changes purity of the piano overtones. Performer is Liberace impersonator - much of the program was comedic dialogue.

Last edited by blanneau; 6th June 2019 at 12:03 AM.. Reason: Typos
Old 6th June 2019
  #1961
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by blanneau View Post
It takes moderate verb well and se mod-side widening. The widening. Changes purity of the piano overtones. Performer is Liberace impersonator - much of the program was comedic dialogue.
"Schmaltzy" is what came to mind, but that might have looked disrespectful here. Now I'm glad to know I wasn't off the mark one bit.
Old 6th June 2019
  #1962
Quote:
Originally Posted by blanneau View Post
Recent live entertainer program. CM3 set up at last minute, rather close. Just the piano mics, no eq or reverb added.
beautiful sound you captured there
Old 6th June 2019
  #1963
Gear Head
Quote:
Originally Posted by pencilextremist View Post
beautiful sound you captured there
Thank you. My piano technician deserves much credit for the sound.
Old 10th June 2019
  #1964
Gear Head
Today I received my pair of CM4 from Roger.
Attached Thumbnails
CM3 - really THAT good?-86152ed3-302a-41ad-9fc5-ad2000c8258d.jpg  
Old 11th June 2019
  #1965
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JCBigler's Avatar
So these really are cardioid then? and not wide cardioid?
Old 11th June 2019
  #1966
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elpillo's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by JCBigler View Post
So these really are cardioid then? and not wide cardioid?
The CM4's seem to be "more cardioid" than CM3's, but not a "classic" cardiod. More like a MK22 capsule?
Old 12th June 2019
  #1967
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jpgerard's Avatar
Please take a look at the published specs. The CM4 is basically a CM3 "rebuild" because a critical part is now obsolete and can't be obtained. Polar pattern is about the same (but the graphs have different "styles" so make sure you're aware of it). The CM4 does exhibit a hair more 180° rejection. In practice the difference is very subtle. They're both "Wide Cardioid", the CM4 being a bit more "Cardioid" in that is rejects a bit more at 180° but as far as front lobe and overall consistency off axis, very similar (the CM4 was designed to be as close to the CM3 as can be).
Old 12th June 2019
  #1968
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jpgerard's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by elpillo View Post
The CM4's seem to be "more cardioid" than CM3's, but not a "classic" cardiod. More like a MK22 capsule?
Both CM3 and 4 are in the MK22 type polar response range. I think it's important to remember that the CM3 was never a Schoeps CMC/MK22 clone. It just happened to be similar and many found them very close indeed hence the comparisons but the CM3 was designed without a model in mind. The CM4's model is basically the CM3
Old 12th June 2019
  #1969
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With orchestra productions I use MK22 to spot violins and violas and CM-3 for woodwinds. Never needed to also spot the woodwinds with MK22 because the CM-3 are really good for this job.
I just ordered 4 CM-4 for a test, the "hair" for more 180° rejection could be a plus in my use.
By the way there is a new thread for the CM-4:
CM4 Is Here. Let's start a thread for it and let the CM3 go on

Fred
Old 12th June 2019
  #1970
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Listener View Post
For some reason the links won't work here?

Are the videos still up?

And yes, I heard that "secret", too... I am sure it is not so sensitive to not hint at it here...

We will have a whole new set of shoot-outs now - and threads like "which is better CM3 or CM X"? Might cause the CM3s to become "vintage" and highly priced on ebay... )))))
I'm able to replace the video with an audio segment (Handel aria)...refer to post#1936 above...and this video link from the same concert (same soprano, same CM3 spot pair) is still active: https://vimeo.com/339689256
Attached Files

Handel aria.mp3 (4.27 MB, 2239 views)


Last edited by studer58; 13th June 2019 at 10:01 AM..
Old 14th June 2019
  #1971
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by onlyme View Post
Today I received my pair of CM4 from Roger.
Have you had a chance to try out the CM4’s? If so, how do they compare to the CM3?
Old 13th July 2019
  #1972
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Stradivariusz's Avatar
1610 Monteverdi's baroque music!

CM3 as a main pair for this recording. Zoom H4 as a recorder. No other mics, a bit of a reverb.
Attached Files

vespers.mp3 (1.42 MB, 1385 views)

Old 13th July 2019
  #1973
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boojum's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stradivariusz View Post
1610 Monteverdi's baroque music!

CM3 as a main pair for this recording. Zoom H4 as a recorder. No other mics, a bit of a reverb.
Nicely done,
Old 13th July 2019
  #1974
Lives for gear
Yes , but isn't there to much compression ?
Old 15th July 2019
  #1975
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
I'm able to replace the video with an audio segment (Handel aria)...refer to post#1936 above...and this video link from the same concert (same soprano, same CM3 spot pair) is still active: https://vimeo.com/339689256
Nice, studer! Sounds great. The Line Audios have a neutral yet warm, non-clinical, smooth and somewhat 'expensive' midrange sound, with a touch, just a touch of veil. They would seem to be an ideal spot mic in that case. I often use the OM1s but will probably spring for the new CM4s.

I like the placement of the spot pair - very discrete. I didn't see them at first! Do you ever contend with stage managers not letting you use spots on stage?
Old 15th July 2019
  #1976
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shosty View Post
I like the placement of the spot pair - very discrete. I didn't see them at first! Do you ever contend with stage managers not letting you use spots on stage?
In that situation you don't want to go too high(and close...to avoid them being blocked by the score books)...but further back and a bit lower can still be ok, at the cost of a bit more diffuse spot focus sound. A very thin stand (and small mics like CM3) helps placate stage managers !

An alternate mic placement could have been both CM3 (or even OM-1) side by side, separated by 5cm or so and parallel, facing forward into the space between the singers. That way you get 'mono with width', and the ensemble leakage into each spot gives a sense of appropriate ( yet diminished) stereo image. It's all about scale...
Old 15th July 2019
  #1977
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
In that situation you don't want to go too high(and close...to avoid them being blocked by the score books)...but further back and a bit lower can still be ok, at the cost of a bit more diffuse spot focus sound. A very thin stand (and small mics like CM3) helps placate stage managers !

An alternate mic placement could have been both CM3 (or even OM-1) side by side, separated by 5cm or so and parallel, facing forward into the space between the singers. That way you get 'mono with width', and the ensemble leakage into each spot gives a sense of appropriate ( yet diminished) stereo image. It's all about scale...
Great ideas. Where I teach I'd love to be able to place a pair of spots like this for my recital since everything recorded goes through a hung pair that just sounds too distant for cello when playing with piano. It doesn't help that I sit in the traditional violin standing position. Unfortunately, they don't allow spots on stage but perhaps something like this would be ok.
Old 15th July 2019
  #1978
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by shosty View Post
Great ideas. Where I teach I'd love to be able to place a pair of spots like this for my recital since everything recorded goes through a hung pair that just sounds too distant for cello when playing with piano. It doesn't help that I sit in the traditional violin standing position. Unfortunately, they don't allow spots on stage but perhaps something like this would be ok.
Do you have a music stand with you when you're playing cello ? If so, you can get a small gooseneck plus clamp end and clamp it to the upright of your music stand, then put spot mic(s) on the end of the gooseneck. It can be quite a short gooseneck...in fact it must be, you don't want to get the mic too close to the cello. Technically it's not a spot mic stand..it's just an attachment to your music stand !

One of those drumkit edge mic holders is ideal, if the clamp will bite onto your music stand vertical post, or lip edge : https://www.frontendaudio.com/audix-...rophone-clamp/

Failing that, suspend an OM-1 via mic cable from the lower lip-edge of the music stand....let it hang down, pointing at the floor. Being omni, for your purposes it'll pick up enough cello spot sound due to proximity to your instrument, even though it's pointing at the floor.

If all that fails, a PZM or boundary layer mic on the floor about 2 feet in front of your cello (or an OM-1 or CM3 gaffed taped to the floor) will pick up enough direct cello to counter-act/combine with the too-distant sound of the overhead pair. Think like a prisoner, planning a breakout with limited tools,...where concealment and stealth is all important It's You vs The System, and necessity is the mofo of invention

Last edited by studer58; 15th July 2019 at 04:25 PM..
Old 15th July 2019
  #1980
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
Do you have a music stand with you when you're playing cello ? If so, you can get a small gooseneck plus clamp end and clamp it to the upright of your music stand, then put spot mic(s) on the end of the gooseneck. It can be quite a short gooseneck...in fact it must be, you don't want to get the mic too close to the cello. Technically it's not a spot mic stand..it's just an attachment to your music stand !

One of those drumkit edge mic holders is ideal, if the clamp will bite onto your music stand vertical post, or lip edge : https://www.frontendaudio.com/audix-...rophone-clamp/

Failing that, suspend an OM-1 via mic cable from the lower lip-edge of the music stand....let it hang down, pointing at the floor. Being omni, for your purposes it'll pick up enough cello spot sound due to proximity to your instrument, even though it's pointing at the floor.

If all that fails, a PZM or boundary layer mic on the floor about 2 feet in front of your cello (or an OM-1 or CM3 gaffed taped to the floor) will pick up enough direct cello to counter-act/combine with the too-distant sound of the overhead pair. Think like a prisoner, planning a breakout with limited tools,...where concealment and stealth is all important It's You vs The System, and necessity is the mofo of invention
I like how you think, studer! Haha

Those are great ideas. I think your idea of using a music stand is a great way to buck the system.

I have a good way of hiding my portable recorder - I already affix a board, painted flat black, completely covering the front legs of the chair from the seat to the floor to reflect out into the hall all the sound of the cello that would normally go right between my legs (kind of different, I realize). I've experiment with listeners and it helps provide a greater amount of direct sound in our hall which tends to be a bit diffuse.

I could hide my recorder under the chair. I'd have to check levels carefully because the board is going to give extra sound right in front of the cello but I normally put the stand off to the left anyway.

Cool, studer! Thanks for the p.s. links too!
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