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Millenia or DAV BG1 as clean stereo preamp ?
Old 24th June 2011
  #241
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MichaelPatrick's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by JEGG View Post
Just for clarity: My point was not that DAV products are being promoted surreptitiously. Rather the point was the nature of criticism directed by Teddy and others toward JW, the partial content of JW's comments re: DAV("itemization"), and that concern about the motivation of JW is unfounded. Additionally, if conflicts of interests and forum writers is a concern (part of criticism toward JW), there are others who merit attention, not JW.
I agree that JW is clean when it comes to promotions here - at least by my observations. Mick at DAV is too. Thanks for clarifying.
Old 24th June 2011
  #242
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelPatrick View Post
Thanks for clarifying.
You're welcome, and enjoy your BG-8. I'd love one. I've used the BG-1 once (only) and was "largely" impressed by its sound and the brick-like form. It's great. Good price, too. But all of this has already been said.......
Old 24th June 2011
  #243
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hbphotoav's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelPatrick View Post
...

DAV micamps are not as neutral as a Gordon, Forssell, Williams High Speed, Millennia or Grace. The list could be longer. That said, I just ordered a BG8 from Mick that'll arrive today!
Methinks you will like it.

A lot.

HB
Satisfied DAV BG8 owner and user; Gordon Model 5 wanna-own'er.
That would make a nice rack...
Old 24th June 2011
  #244
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jslevin's Avatar
I've been round and round on this subject. I'm a fan of most of the preamps mentioned in this thread -- I have owned nearly all of them at one point or another. I like the DAV preamps, but they are over-promoted by a small number of users on GearSlutz, have been for years. Millennia is great but pretty dry. I'm a Grace fan, they sound a bit "enhanced" but in a nice way. John Hardy might be the best all-around.

Anyone interested in excellent "clean" preamps should try out an AEA RPQ. Real sonic excellence and musicality, some nice extra features, and quite reasonably priced to boot. Definitely a step up from the TRP in terms of detail, and it too is a Forssell design, and perhaps the RPQ is not as compromised by budget concerns as the TRP is. You never see an RPQ for sale used, and there's a reason for that. People who try it don't find the need to look for something better.

JSL
Old 24th June 2011
  #245
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MichaelPatrick's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by hbphotoav View Post
Methinks you will like it.

A lot.

HB
Satisfied DAV BG8 owner and user; Gordon Model 5 wanna-own'er.
That would make a nice rack...
Thanks. I'm upgrading from a BG4, so I know I'll like the sound! I'm just getting more channels.

Don't you use an RME UFX? I'm racking both in a 3U for remote recording. I'll post a picture after it's mounted.
Old 24th June 2011
  #246
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hbphotoav's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelPatrick View Post
Thanks. I'm upgrading from a BG4, so I know I'll like the sound! I'm just getting more channels.

Don't you use an RME UFX? I'm racking both in a 3U for remote recording. I'll post a picture after it's mounted.
Nope. Apogee Ensemble for the serious stuff... PreSonus or Mackie Onyx desks for anything over 8 tracks. One of these days, Orpheus would be nice. But, until then (like with the Gordon), I'm satisfied. I'm sure there's a photo of that rack somewhere in the GS archives. BG8 over the Ensemble over a TASCAM CD-R in a 4U CNB (SKB knock-off). Tidy.

Cheers!

HB
Old 24th June 2011
  #247
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Plush's Avatar
piece of crap

Some of the stuff written here yesterday is really garbage and as a d.a.v. electronics devotee I cannot let it pass without comment.

The first garbage is that Williams is not biased. He certainly is and his posts about itemized lists of parts in the BG gear has often been inaccurate and driven by an agenda clearly made to smear dav.

Then the guessing game continues with the fantasy posts written by JEGG.

He attempts to say that the d.a.v. electronics Broadhurst Gardens range of mic amps is not a Decca Records mic amp from 1994. It is a design from directly inside the Decca company and it is the design settled on by Decca Records engineering and listening teams.

JEGG writes this nonsense, "forum members endlessly insist the product is from another age manufactured in the present." He then says that this is in fact not happening.

It is happening and that is one of the reasons that the mic amps perform so well.

I have been to Mick Hiinton's workshop and I have talked with him dozens of times about his designs and philosophy.

Here is the real story:

Hinton worked at Decca for 27 years in the design and maintainance dept.

When the pro recording industry was moving from 16 and 18 bit recording to 20 bit and beyond, the team at Decca wanted a better mic amp to take advantage of the lower noise in the system and the greater dynamic range.

Mick Hinton and his dept. worked on many designs and presented them to the engineering and listening people at Decca. Many designs were auditioned and after a good bit of time listening and measuring, one design was chosen to be the successor to the prior mic amps used at Decca.

It is insulting to read posts that say that the person who actually worked on the original design at Decca is not now making that design currently. It's bad information, it's a guess and a smear.

Anyone who is actually in the recording business knows what they are listening to when they hook up a d.a.v. electronics Broadhurst Gardens No. 1 mic amp.
Old 24th June 2011
  #248
Gear Addict
 

For some time now, I have been aware of alterations made to equipment by Audio Upgrades, that have ended up back with the original manufacturers to be returned to proper working condition.

These include ebay purchases which were being disposed of because of the modifications and which some poor individual had purchased. This is not one manufacturer but two that I am aware of. In some cases I have emails connected with it that are still on my computer, others were mentioned in conversation at various times with the separate companies.

So it is not a benign issue to those parting with that money to purchase, or to the reputation of the original manufacturers. None of this gets mentioned here because, I suppose, the manufacturers don't want to appear unprofessional and get involved in these things. One of the manufacturers used the phrase, "messing up my circuits."

What I do know, is that Jim Williams has mentioned parts used in the DAV, which have never been part of the circuitry, so for me it all seems quite nonsensical.

If you want a JW amp go and buy one, if you want a DAV mic preamp (in my opinion, a wise decision) go and buy one.

I don't know how old Jim Williams is, but there's a good chance he was still having his diapers changed when Mick Hinton was designing the first Decca amps.
Old 24th June 2011
  #249
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MichaelPatrick's Avatar
 

DAV Gordon and RME UFX

Quote:
Originally Posted by hbphotoav View Post
Satisfied DAV BG8 owner and user; Gordon Model 5 wanna-own'er.
That would make a nice rack...
That's my rack! RME UFX, Gordon Model 5, DAV BG8
Attached Thumbnails
Millenia or DAV BG1 as clean stereo preamp ?-dav-gordon-rme-rack.jpg  

Last edited by MichaelPatrick; 24th June 2011 at 10:36 PM.. Reason: add picture
Old 25th June 2011
  #250
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Celloman's Avatar
Similar 3 space rig...

Enjoying my new UFX!
Attached Thumbnails
Millenia or DAV BG1 as clean stereo preamp ?-rack_dsc3638.jpg  
Old 25th June 2011
  #251
Me, too.....well, I don't have DAV, yet

I'm interested in the comparison between DAV versus UFX's preamps.

New DAW build

As shown in the computer build thread above, I have UFX and really enjoy the portability (direct USB recording) and solid performance. IMO, UFX's preamps are clean and transparent, but 4 mic preamp channels are sometime not enough. I'm considering to add 2-4 more channels of clean preamps that match (or excell) UFX's preamps, like DAV, Millenia, Grace, or GML. Sounds like DAV is the way to go?

Btw, my sound souce is like grand pianos, strings, small orchestras, and acoustic guitars.
Old 26th June 2011
  #252
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didier.brest's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Masaaki View Post
I'm interested in the comparison between DAV versus UFX's preamps.
I've got the Fireface400, not the UFX. The preamps are the same. Short piano test recorded at home with a pair of Schoeps MK21, a mic splitter, a DAV BG1, a Fearn VT-2 and a Fireface 400. Three stereo tracks from Reaper here attached
Attached Files

MK 21 - Fearn VT-2.mp3 (1.66 MB, 3639 views)

MK 21 - DAV BG1.mp3 (1.66 MB, 3711 views)

MK21 - Fireface 400.mp3 (1.66 MB, 3543 views)

Old 26th June 2011
  #253
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MichaelPatrick's Avatar
 

Didier, thanks for posting!

In order, the tracks I prefer are 1) DAV, 2) FF400 and 3) Fearn.

The DAV is more dynamic at all frequencies, the FF400 and Fearn seem to compress low mids but the FF400 does less of it, and it has a softer sound which is a little bit less revealing than the DAV. The Fearn does a beautiful job of doing what tubes can do - increase harmonics and the weight of low mids, and this makes upper mids and highs comparatively exciting, but such a deep bed of low mids also puts more piano body into the mix while subtracting the room and its "air."

Just some subjective opinions.
Old 26th June 2011
  #254
Quote:
Originally Posted by didier.brest View Post
I've got the Fireface400, not the UFX. The preamps are the same. Short piano test recorded at home with a pair of Schoeps MK21, a mic splitter, a DAV BG1, a Fearn VT-2 and a Fireface 400. Three stereo tracks from Reaper here attached
Thank you very much for sharing the samples!!

My preference was Fearn VT-2 = DAV BG1 > FF400. All of them sound good, and the choice between VT2 and BG1 was a matter of taste; VT has better dynamics, BG1 has clearer details. FF sounded with a little bit less clarity and dynamics to my ears.

I think it's worth getting 4ch version of DAV (BG2) to add more mic channels to UFX.
Old 27th June 2011
  #255
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Masaaki View Post
I think it's worth getting 4ch version of DAV (BG2) to add more mic channels to UFX.
Precisely what I am considering. The alternative is a Micstacy with the new DirectOut i64 USB card, for the possibly better quality, convenience of set-up and simplicity. And its about the same price as a UFX and BG2.

The UFX/BG2 combo gives the same number of mic channels, plus additional expandability and of course the added attractions of direct USB recording and TotalMix FX. And you get a choice of different mic pre 'colours' in your rig.

Just finished trialling the Micstacy. And I am extremely pleased with the results from my BG1, either via an existing FF400 or into my Nagra V. In fact, if I need to spend less money, adding a BG2 to my existing FF400 and BG1 would be perfectly satisfactory way of getting 8 mic channels.

Choices, choices ...
Old 27th June 2011
  #256
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jslevin's Avatar
Once again ... tired of hearing from the DAV devotees. They are entitled to their opinion, and I respect anything Plush has to say in particular, but their overall "signal" level here is louder than the consensus on DAV preamps, which is that they are very good but not great. (For whatever consensus is worth anyway ... in the end, we each have to make our own judgments.)

I emphasize again, anyone who hasn't tried out the AEA RPQ for this application really has not done a thorough search. Trust me, it's worth the audition. And I mention this a second time because, unlike DAV preamps, this is a less well known product that doesn't have people auto-posting in its favor every week.

JSL
Old 27th June 2011
  #257
GES
Gear Nut
 

rack with dav and ufx too...

I use the bg1 with a ff400, and in this case, the bg2-ufx. In this rack I have still 4 analogs in that let me use other preamps with more color...in case i need, or extra 2 channels with the bg1.
But I see when the two mains and maybe other two room mics are well positioned, and when the players played OK, through the bg2, all the others are no longer neccesary...
The focusrite under...is planned to battery and jazz-rock purposes...or spots as needed...
Attached Thumbnails
Millenia or DAV BG1 as clean stereo preamp ?-csc_0214.jpg  
Old 27th June 2011
  #258
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jslevin View Post
Once again ... tired of hearing from the DAV devotees. They are entitled to their opinion, and I respect anything Plush has to say in particular, but their overall "signal" level here is louder than the consensus on DAV preamps, which is that they are very good but not great. (For whatever consensus is worth anyway ... in the end, we each have to make our own judgments.)

I emphasize again, anyone who hasn't tried out the AEA RPQ for this application really has not done a thorough search. Trust me, it's worth the audition. And I mention this a second time because, unlike DAV preamps, this is a less well known product that doesn't have people auto-posting in its favor every week.

JSL
Names such as AEA, Fred Forsell and John La Grau are indeed well known - principally in the USA, I would suggest. And there also exist a wide variety of other names from Europe and the Antipodes as well.

However, mention of your particular choice of pre in these forums serves mainly, like brand advertising, to re-inforce for you the wisdom of your choice. Frequency mention of particular devices in a democratic forum such as this may not only reflect a measure of perceived absolute quality, but also a product which has more general application, consistency and a favourable price/performance ratio. It is not a scientifically rigorous sample of opinion but it is a useful indication.

So it's cool that you prefer the AEA, but that's you. Me - I'd love to have a whole room full of pre-amps and mics to try, but I don't. My colleague has an AEA, buit has other types as well, including a BG8.

BTW, I note that Dolly Parton is touring here later this year, and the poster shows her warbling into a 44BX ... except the red logo clearly says 'AEA'. Yeah, Wes!
Old 27th June 2011
  #259
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MichaelPatrick's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by panatrope View Post
Names such as AEA, Fred Forsell and John La Grau are indeed well known - principally in the USA, I would suggest. And there also exist a wide variety of other names from Europe and the Antipodes as well.

However, mention of your particular choice of pre in these forums serves mainly, like brand advertising, to re-inforce for you the wisdom of your choice. Frequency mention of particular devices in a democratic forum such as this may not only reflect a measure of perceived absolute quality, but also a product which has more general application, consistency and a favourable price/performance ratio. It is not a scientifically rigorous sample of opinion but it is a useful indication.

So it's cool that you prefer the AEA, but that's you. Me - I'd love to have a whole room full of pre-amps and mics to try, but I don't. My colleague has an AEA, buit has other types as well, including a BG8.

BTW, I note that Dolly Parton is touring here later this year, and the poster shows her warbling into a 44BX ... except the red logo clearly says 'AEA'. Yeah, Wes!
And the thread title does have DAV in it heh
Old 27th June 2011
  #260
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hbphotoav's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelPatrick View Post
And the thread title does have DAV in it heh
HEY...! Stop making sense...!
Old 27th June 2011
  #261
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Remoteness's Avatar
...Yeah, why is there so much talk about Millenia media and DAV preamps in this thread anyway?
Old 27th June 2011
  #262
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Gaston69's Avatar
UFX & Millennia HV-3D

I am very pleased with my UFX & Millennia HV-3D setup.....
Attached Thumbnails
Millenia or DAV BG1 as clean stereo preamp ?-img_0228.jpg  
Old 27th June 2011
  #263
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jslevin View Post
Anyone interested in excellent "clean" preamps should try out an AEA RPQ. Real sonic excellence and musicality, some nice extra features, and quite reasonably priced to boot. Definitely a step up from the TRP in terms of detail, and it too is a Forssell design, and perhaps the RPQ is not as compromised by budget concerns as the TRP is.
Hmmm... I never thought of the TRP as "compromised," but then I haven't heard the RPQ. Is the RPQ actually that much better? I'd be especially interested in comparisons with condenser mics, using a 48v supply for the TRP.

I have one TRP in my small preamp rack for remotes, and I've been considering getting a second one, with the idea that it would be nice to have four channels in one rack space, that could go either way with ribbons or condensers (with external 48v). But if the RPQ is significantly better, maybe it's worth another rack space.
Old 28th June 2011
  #264
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jslevin's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by panatrope View Post
Names such as AEA, Fred Forsell and John La Grau are indeed well known - principally in the USA, I would suggest.
AEA is well known here, and many know who Fred Forssell is. The RPQ as a specific product, however, is not very well known. The proof is that nobody else is discussing it in this thread, while there are probably a dozen people who can hold forth on Grace vs. Millennia, and several more who can compare DAV with John Hardy. All I've argued here is that it needs to be in this discussion, and for those who have heard it, it needs no further advocacy. You won't see me "pulling a DAV" on it, I'm just saying, try it for yourself.

I respect your points about perspective. I don't believe I need to justify a "choice," as I feel perfectly free to sell my current stuff and try other stuff, and I often do. My choices are pretty temporary in the grand scheme of things, and these are only two-channel preamps, after all -- it's not like ripping up something important like your monitoring system. I've owned damned near every preamp mentioned in this thread, and I am concerned principally with sound quality but also with features and value.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Foldedpath View Post
Hmmm... I never thought of the TRP as "compromised," but then I haven't heard the RPQ. Is the RPQ actually that much better? I'd be especially interested in comparisons with condenser mics, using a 48v supply for the TRP.
I have nothing bad to say about the TRP -- having two in a remote rig sounds like a fine idea to me. It's a tremendous value, and it's wonderful the way it serves a specific function. I too was skeptical that the RPQ would sound much different, but I was wrong. The RPQ definitely is a jump up in transparency and detail, and it's more of an all-around elite choice. The EQ is surprisingly helpful, too.

The TRP is a great choice on dynamics and works fine for condensers. The RPQ would be great on just about anything, and it's up to the task of a demanding classical recording, which for me is one requirement of a super-clean preamp. It's in that league.

JSL
Old 28th June 2011
  #265
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Yep... this must be the thread about "Millenia or DAV BG1"...

I could have sworn there was a thread about Forssell and TRP somewhere around here, though...

=-}
Old 29th June 2011
  #267
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hbphotoav View Post
Yep... this must be the thread about "Millenia or DAV BG1"...

I could have sworn there was a thread about Forssell and TRP somewhere around here, though...
By all means, let's not try to help the OP solve his problem ... mustn't stray from the exact rules that we imagine are dictated by the thread title! The thread title is, after all, handed down by the Lord God Almighty!

The guy is asking about clean stereo preamps. The OP in the very first post in the thread takes the discussion beyond Millennia and DAV, bringing Amek into it. My posts here have been 100 percent on-topic.

Let me repeat that: 100 percent on-topic.

Do you people really think you're making this a better forum by sticking up for semantics over substance? Or upholding some glorious principle? Because it's really just døuchey and anal-retentive.

JSL
Old 29th June 2011
  #268
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boojum's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by jslevin View Post
By all means, let's not try to help the OP solve his problem ... mustn't stray from the rules!

The guy is asking about clean stereo preamps. The OP in the very first post in the thread takes the discussion beyond Millennia and DAV, bringing Amek into the discussion. My posts here have been 100 percent on-topic.

Let me repeat that: 100 percent on-topic.

Do you people really think you're making this a better forum by sticking up for semantics over substance? Or upholding some glorious principle? Because it's really just døuchey and anal-retentive.

JSL

All this over electronic circuits? You'd think we were discussing "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion", the Antirchrist, selling hooch in Muslim temples or some other such things. Fellas, let's get this back from a gallop to a casual amble.

Please.
Old 29th June 2011
  #269
Boojum, I'm gonna propose the opposite approach....

All those with me, who believe that the almighty himself breathed life into the first BG amp circuit after first sending Gabriel the Seraph to Mick Hinton in 1993 in a fiery blaze survivable only by the great British prophet himself, PM and I'll send you a copy of the divine text I discovered on 2 tablets written in Arabimebrewish under a sacred 10000 year-old tree (coincidentally, I had time to transcribe it for you because I couldn't get any pop gigs with my all-DAV rig.... I consider it my 40-day fast)

We will litter the threads with the Good News of DAV. And those who chose to still worship at the primitive NEVE, UREI and API temples will taste the steel from our self-righteous swords!

The truth shall set you free! With minimal distortion.

Last edited by king2070lplaya; 29th June 2011 at 02:12 AM.. Reason: lets just say I'd have an HV3 if I had the money.
Old 29th June 2011
  #270
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boojum's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by king2070lplaya View Post
Boojum, I'm gonna propose the opposite approach....

All those with me, who believe that the almighty himself breathed life into the first BG amp circuit after first sending Gabriel the Seraph to Mick Hinton in 1993 in a fiery blaze survivable only by the great British prophet himself, PM and I'll send you a copy of the divine text I discovered on 2 tablets written in Arabimebrewish under a sacred 10000 year-old tree (coincidentally, I had time to transcribe it for you because I couldn't get any pop gigs with my all-DAV rig.... I consider it my 40-day fast)

We will litter the threads with the Good News of DAV. And those who chose to still worship at the primitive NEVE, UREI and API temples will taste the steel from our self-righteous swords!

The truth shall set you free! With minimal distortion.
ROTFLMAO - where else but this forum on GS!?
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