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4-point editing on Mac?
Old 25th March 2010
  #1
Gear Maniac
 

Question 4-point editing on Mac?

Hi guys,
I used in the past professional systems such as Sadie, Sequoia on Windows for editing classical recordings....
The problem is that I need 4- point editing (source/destination) in my home studio and now I'm on the Mac platform.
The only option seems to be Sonic....
Other possibilities to evaluate?
Thank you
Old 25th March 2010
  #2
Lives for gear
Sequoia + Bootcamp.

JMM
Old 25th March 2010
  #3
Lives for gear
 

Unfortunately, there just isn't much out there for the classical editor on mac... These days, the PC programs pretty much rule the roost. That being said, you can kind of 4-point edit with Wavelab and the newly-announced version 7 will have a Mac version.

In the end, if you want to be working on Mac hardware, best to install bootcamp and your PC DAW of choice.

--Ben
Old 25th March 2010
  #4
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JonesH's Avatar
I was also looking to go the Sequoia+bootcamp way. Been following Reapers development with interest though, they seemed to think both 4-point editing and crossfade editor were interesting ideas to implement and there are feature requests for them both I think.
Old 26th March 2010
  #5
Gear Maniac
 

I haven't used the latest version, but I think Bias Peak may offer something similar to 4-point fades.
Old 26th March 2010
  #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bixby View Post
I haven't used the latest version, but I think Bias Peak may offer something similar to 4-point fades.
There is no company I loathe more than Bias.
Old 26th March 2010
  #7
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Some of the worst bugs I've ever experienced have been in Peak... No thanks.

--Ben
Old 26th March 2010
  #8
Gear Nut
 

I don't know anything, well, about anything, but...
What is so bad about SoundBlade? Wasn't Sonic Solutions the inventors of the 4-Point editing system?
I only ask because this question has come up at least once before, and there doesn't seem to be a lot of advise steered towards SoundBlade.

Also, as Ben mentioned, WaveLab 7 will be available for Mac later this year.
And Ardour ardour - the digital audio workstation may have something useful as well.

Brian
Old 26th March 2010
  #9
jdg
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jdg's Avatar
if all your doing is editing, soundBlade might just work.
but it such a buggy piece of –ªº¨∆˚¬∂∆¬˙´∆


i gave up on it, and switch my mastering DAW to pc.
YMMV.

you can download and install sB and run in "demo" mode and not be able to save or export, but you can at least use it for 4-point to see if you like it
Old 26th March 2010
  #10
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by fifthcircle View Post
That being said, you can kind of 4-point edit with Wavelab and the newly-announced version 7 will have a Mac version.--
Ben
True words. I do a lot of classical editing with Wavelab and the pseudo 4 point editing using two montage tracks and the equal power crossfades works very well.
Old 26th March 2010
  #11
Lives for gear
 

I started to develop some "n" point editing routines in Reaper using its "actions" which can be stacked to automate many operations, and it was surprising what could be achieved, but I had to put the project aside for various reasons and can't fire myself up to restart it.

The nice thing was that I found myself kind of rethinking my editing workflow, and one method I automated was working with a project file containing all the original session takes one after another, then choosing the first required portion, copying that to the end of the project with a single keystroke, and repeating ad infinitum appending each next bit to the end with a default crossfade which could be tweaked afterwards. There was also provision for auditioning how the edit would sound before actually making it (by automatically playing the last appended section, then the next candidate section, then choosing yes/no to accept it). However, it would be good if Reaper's developers eventually provided some such built in function. (I'd also love to see the old Sound Designer style of playlist-based editing provided as an option - I always used to find that another good way to work on classical material, back in the Good Old Days of SD on an Atari!).
Old 26th March 2010
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Spearritt View Post
True words. I do a lot of classical editing with Wavelab and the pseudo 4 point editing using two montage tracks and the equal power crossfades works very well.
I should be more clear... It does work quite well for what it is.

That being said, when you compare the workflow of Wavelab to a true S-D 4 point model (ie old sonic, Sequoia, Pyramix, SADiE), it falls short. There is something to be said for having all your clips on one track and going into a fade editor where you can easily pop between edits over as many tracks as you desire.

Once again, not to say that working isn't possible in Wavelab because it is. I know lots of classical editors that swear by it. I just find there to be a pretty significant ergonomic advantage with other DAWs.

--Ben
Old 27th March 2010
  #13
Gear Guru
 
John Willett's Avatar
 

Smile

Quote:
Originally Posted by mathieujm View Post
Sequoia + Bootcamp.
That's what I would do.

Sequoia is the best out there with SADiE coming closest.
Old 28th March 2010
  #14
urumita
 
7rojo7's Avatar
 

I've never had any complaints with PT, maybe I'm missing something, or I've developed my own routines (I;m very fussy) So I guess I need an explination of the difference between what I'm used to and 4 point
Old 29th March 2010
  #15
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Adebar's Avatar
Soundblade works great for me. Especially fades and crossfades sound better than in PT - and are faster to set and adjust.
Old 29th March 2010
  #16
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The thing is, it isn't just about the 4 point cut model. you can approximate that model on just about any piece of software. It may not be as streamlined, but you can do it.

I started editing back on the original classic Sonic Solutions DAWs. Compared to everything else, it was pretty amazing what you could do, but it came at a price- both in terms of cash and some of the reliability issues with it.

When it came time to get my own rig, I started with Sound Forge. I worked in the exact same model as Sonic, but without the same level of control- I opened 2 sessions, one with takes and the other for the edits. I edited between the two: 4 point edits, done.

The place where Sonic (and still to a degree Soundblade- but it isn't what the older systems are), Pyramix, SADiE and Sequoia shine is in their crossfade editors. There is a level of power that you get with those programs that simply does not exist elsewhere. You can use work-arounds to get other programs to do similar things, but it isn't always easy. These work arounds can include things like moving clips to different tracks, automating curves, exiting the fade editor to make things work, etc...

Somebody brought up Pro Tools. Try doing this: go into the crossfade editor and move the audio without leaving it. While there, make the two fades different lengths and have different amounts of overlap on the edit point. I do operations like this all the time in Sequoia with ease. In PT, you simply cannot do it all.

These are the differences that IMO seperate the proverbial men from the boys. As I said before, it isn't that you cannot work in other programs- quite the opposite. I know people that use just about every DAW out there with good results. When it comes to heavy-duty classical editing, though, there are few that are made with the required ergonomics in mind.

--Ben
Old 29th March 2010
  #17
Lives for gear
 

I am in a quandry with the decision whether to upgrade from Wavelab 6 to 7 or to go with Sadie 6 Native. My preference at the moment is for Sadie, will see what the entry price is like.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fifthcircle View Post
These are the differences that IMO seperate the proverbial men from the boys.--Ben
I must say I am looking forward to becoming a man at last.
Old 29th March 2010
  #18
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Larry Elliott's Avatar
David,
Give Pyramix Native (Mastering) a try. At least that is an established product and the new Native series are a great advance from the earlier ones.
Larry
Old 30th March 2010
  #19
Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Elliott View Post
David,
Give Pyramix Native (Mastering) a try. At least that is an established product and the new Native series are a great advance from the earlier ones.
Larry
And the pricing on Pyramix Native here in the US cheaper than many other native based workstations.
In the US, Sequoia is about $3k, Sadie is north of $3500 but Pyramix Native with then Music Pack (All you really need to get started. I use this myself on the road) comes in at about $1600.
The Version 6 Music pack gets you everything you need for editing and mixing. If you need DDP, that's an optional add on for the Music pack. DDP is the only real benefit that you get for your money with the Mastering Pack in the Native world. If you have Mykerinos hardware, then it's a different thing.

All the best,
-mark
Old 30th March 2010
  #20
urumita
 
7rojo7's Avatar
 

Aah, I see how this could be quicker. I spend a lot of time picking the exact point, then move it to be in perfect rhythm, then adjust the fade at the in and leave the out for the next in, also, if I just have to insert something, I usually seperate first anf i have to select all the audio til the end before i can realign it in time and then make the fades. Sounds fster the other way
I had a good demo of Pyramix at their HQ, and this was not made evident to me.
Old 30th March 2010
  #21
Lives for gear
 

For myself, before paying out large sums on a classical editing DAW, I'd be wondering whether the Reaper developers were going to suddenly tack on crossfade editing and four point editing at their present price point. I would have thought they could if they were minded to, given the other stuff they've done.
Old 16th July 2010
  #22
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Does anyone know if more recent versions of Reaper have incorporated this ability..or whether any new players on the DAW front have emerged to challenge the superiority of Sequoia, Sadie, Pyramix et al ?
Ray
Old 16th July 2010
  #23
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Larry Elliott's Avatar
To my knowledge no...
Larry
Old 31st January 2011
  #24
Bump. Sonar X1 is out, but no sign of source-destination editing...
Old 31st January 2011
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Elliott View Post
To my knowledge no...
Larry
It does get discussed on their forums from time to time. There seems to be a lack of clear understanding of what exactly is needed. You guys should post over there. They seem to try really hard to provide what's wanted.
Old 31st January 2011
  #26
Lives for gear
Norse, does this get close to what you're seeking ?

Classical and Speech Editing Actions - Cockos Confederated Forums

It's not too clear to me either, but I'm hoping there's a set of REAPER custom actions buried somewhere which achieve just the source destination process you refer to ?
Old 31st January 2011
  #27
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sonare's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
It's not too clear to me either, but I'm hoping there's a set of REAPER custom actions buried somewhere which achieve just the source destination process you refer to ?
As Ben said-- it isn't only the SD-- but also the SD w/ripple, the Xfade editor. being able to burn a DDP, and (PT users take note) the bounce is NOT in realtime. I sometimes need MORE than realtime if it is DSP intensive (NR plugs+ pitchbend+ LPEQ on most accurate setting etc) but most discs are done in less than 20 minutes.

It is tempting to think that those capabilities will be available for Mac, but history does not give optimism. The best Windows machines I have owned are Macintels + Bootcamp. Almost crash-free, (nothing is 100%) and I am almost free of the heartburn that daily life in the Windows world used to bring.


Rich
Old 31st January 2011
  #28
Quote:
Bump. Sonar X1 is out, but no sign of source-destination editing...
That is not really a feature that the majority of Sonar users would find useful.

I edit in Sonar (X1 now) and with the track layers and a little organization, I can edit faster, and more accurately than I could with Sadie's 4-point editor. The whole concept seemed a little clumsy and time consuming to me, unless you are dealing with large multi track edits. Personally, I prefer to mix to stereo and edit later.
Old 1st February 2011
  #29
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
It's not too clear to me either, but I'm hoping there's a set of REAPER custom actions buried somewhere which achieve just the source destination process you refer to ?
The link you gave is to a thread I started over there way back (under my alter ego name of Art Evans) and unfortunately I never finished working on it. But the stuff I posted should still work, and as I recall it it wasn't as complex as the description sounds.
Old 15th May 2020
  #30
Gear Head
 

Source-Destination 4-pt editing - Cohler Classical

Check out Cohler Classical released a few weeks ago. It does everything you are looking for and more!

Here's an overview video, but there are LOTS more on the website here.

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