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Old 19th May 2020
  #61
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tourtelot's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by dseetoo View Post
If you want to consider archive recording an art form, it is OK with me. But I wouldn’t do that.
What the heck does that mean? If you are talking about me being an artist, I can assure you that I have no aspirations. I am a technician and an engineer.

If you are suggesting that recording world class performers doing what they do best, performing, and making that sound as close to the event as possible as not worthy, I seriously resent that opinion. If the ensemble plays beautifully and the audience responds from their heart and I manage to capture that, that is, in my opinion, more honest than some heavily manipulated 800 cut bits-and-pieces sorta rendition of somebody who wants to play perfectly (haha) and can't. You know, technology can fix that, but is that what we want to hear. Not I!

D.

Man, I can not tell you how mad that statement makes me. :( Damn!
Old 20th May 2020
  #62
Lives for gear
 

Take it easy, don’t blow your fuse over the way I see things. Clearly, we don’t do the same thing for living, probably the only thing we do in common is that we both hit the recording button from time to time. I wouldn’t expect you to buy the recordings I make with couple of edits to couple of thousands splices in it but that is just fine by me. Who knows, I might end up listening to yours when I do radio station surfing in my car. Do your work ever get on radio? Let us know.


Best regards,

Da-Hong
Old 20th May 2020
  #63
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tourtelot's Avatar
No, I will not take it easy.. Nice to try and gaslight a completely disrespectful statement about many who populate this forum.

It was about as pretentious as anything I have heard lately and I didn't like your posturing. It was unseemly.

Oh and not to toot my own horn but I was co-engineer on Stereophile's recording of the month, last month, so yes, you might hear my work on your car radio if you have a station that plays anything decent.

Phoo!

D.
Old 20th May 2020
  #64
Lives for gear
It might be instructive to cool hot heads while considering what exactly is meant by the term 'archival recording' ?

My understanding of it is that its typically one made at a concert, or maybe an impromptu rehearsal session...perhaps (for any number of reasons) under sub-optimal conditions...which could be any of: restrictions on where mics can be placed, insufficient miking, audience or environmental noise, inadequate rehearsal on the part of musicians etc etc. In other words, intended for only the musicians involved in its creation, or the composer, to listen to....not the wider public. Not intended for radio broadcast, nor commercial release or streaming/YouTube.

It's intended to darken the shelves of an archive in perpetuity....for any number of reasons. It might have been recorded as proof of creation, or for publishing-copy rights purposes....or as rough demo recordings, requiring editing before release could be considered ?

If the artist gets famous, or dies....it's the sort of tomb-raider fodder you'd have expected to sneak out as a bootleg, in a previous era.

How does that sit as a thumbnail of 'archival' ....an alternative pocket definition could be 'significantly flawed or compromised either technically or artistically, and thus deemed ineligible for public release' ?

Or does that apply to most of what is now played on commercial radio as typical Top 40 fodder !!
Old 20th May 2020
  #65
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So what? A monkey can be trained to push the recording button.
Old 20th May 2020
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dseetoo View Post
So what? A monkey can be trained to push the recording button.
Define archive recording
Old 20th May 2020
  #67
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jimjazzdad's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
Define archive recording
I think it comes down to intent, not quality or technology. An archival recording is made to capture an event for the record, or perhaps more accurately, the archives. It is usually for the musicians/the conductor/the musical organization - be that a rock band or a symphony - to measure their performance, have a record of their repetoire, etc. The quality of archival recordings may be variable, but any engineer worth his/her salt will do the best job they possibly can. There is seldom much editing. Sometimes archival recordings may be suitable for broadcast or release, but that is not their primary purpose. The other category is commercial recordings that are explicitly made for release to the public. The quality may be just as variable, and may include any number of edits, but that is down to the artist's/producer's choices, budget, the skills of the technical team, etc. Like Doug, I consider myself a technician (I am not a musician) but sometimes there is an art to what I do. My $0.02.

Oh yes. And like a trained monkey, I work for peanuts.

Last edited by jimjazzdad; 20th May 2020 at 12:21 PM.. Reason: Added PS
Old 20th May 2020
  #68
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
Why not a shootout via a pair of demonstration sessions posted on YouTube : same project files supplied to both Jonathan (CC) and David (Pyramix): same edits specified for both, each man executes these edits on their chosen platform...could even put a timer on for added competitiveness, but not strictly necessary. It would be great to see both editing platforms in action on a common (shared) task, each run by an expert of their DAW. Are you guys up for the challenge ?
My offer still stands independent of whether or not you have someone to demo any other product...
Old 20th May 2020
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
Define archive recording


The way I understand is that when you make archival recording, it is a “one shot deal”. There is no interruption, re-take and you don’t inter-react with the musician. You are there simply to take it in as is, passively. I do understand the tremendous value in making archival recordings for all the valid reasons but I personally don’t enjoy being so passive when I am recording so I stopped doing archival recording years ago.
Old 20th May 2020
  #70
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Plush's Avatar
There is also a wider definition of "archival recording."

For example when an organization records their operas for broadcast or orchestras record for broadcast.

Then they lose their broadcast funding--a rather common occurence.

Then the recordings continue looking towards the day when broadcast will return.

Each performance is recorded, not just one recording.

Later these are edited and aired.

Those are also "archive recordings."

To the matter of a one-off concert recording:

It still takes judgement, skill, and aesthetic taste to do a good job. Of course the engineer interacts with the players! I would never belittle that type of work. It is a bread and butter regular recording job.

Put money to drawer.
Old 20th May 2020
  #71
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I guess other than the traditional studio style recording sessions, everything else all can be categorized as archival recording.
Old 21st May 2020
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dseetoo View Post
The way I understand is that when you make archival recording, it is a “one shot deal”. There is no interruption, re-take and you don’t inter-react with the musician. You are there simply to take it in as is, passively. I do understand the tremendous value in making archival recordings for all the valid reasons but I personally don’t enjoy being so passive when I am recording so I stopped doing archival recording years ago.
To my way of thinking, that's a very limited view of 'archival'. If one does excellent prep work beforehand...understanding the acoustics of the playing space, placing as many mics as necessary in exactly the right places, monitoring their playing in ( ideally) a remote room, perhaps even riding the faders during the performance to get a live to 2 track performance (although the alternative 'safety' of multitrack recording is fine too)..... you have the capability of generating a recording that is of CD release or broadcast quality, if a 1 take method is your ethos ? You might even record the rehearsal in exactly the same way and be likely to capture enough material for patches, repairs etc. Your interaction during this process, with the musicians and conductor, is likely to be minimal...in fact, non-existent.

If your ego requires the laying on of your expert hands, intervention, communication with the players etc, to me those are the hallmarks of a recording session (and during such, a producer might be doing those duties, not the recording engineer...unless they are the same person wearing both hats).

What your description tells me is only that you prefer the role of producer to that of 'simply' an engineer...not that the method I described at the beginning is only capable of generating an archival quality recording ?
Old 21st May 2020
  #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
To my way of thinking, that's a very limited view of 'archival'. If one does excellent prep work beforehand...understanding the acoustics of the playing space, placing as many mics as necessary in exactly the right places, monitoring their playing in ( ideally) a remote room, perhaps even riding the faders during the performance to get a live to 2 track performance (although the alternative 'safety' of multitrack recording is fine too)..... you have the capability of generating a recording that is of CD release or broadcast quality, if a 1 take method is your ethos ? You might even record the rehearsal in exactly the same way and be likely to capture enough material for patches, repairs etc. Your interaction during this process, with the musicians and conductor, is likely to be minimal...in fact, non-existent.

If your ego requires the laying on of your expert hands, intervention, communication with the players etc, to me those are the hallmarks of a recording session (and during such, a producer might be doing those duties, not the recording engineer...unless they are the same person wearing both hats).

What your description tells me is only that you prefer the role of producer to that of 'simply' an engineer...not that the method I described at the beginning is only capable of generating an archival quality recording ?



Hello Studer58,


You are right, I do wear the “producer” hat. By the way, I also wear “engineer” hat.


I have done plenty of "archival" recordings under your descriptions above, both with or without interactions with the artists. Some of them even with a dedicated patch up sessions following the concerts. I know exactly what you refer to and the value of such excise.



It is an occupational hazard such it becomes rather difficult for me to enjoy music outright from a live performance. Having the ability to analyze and disseminate the music from good, to not so good, to the bad, phrase by phrase, measure by measure and note by note all in real-time is a gift for what I do, but also a curse. The classical music I record all have prepared score. Once you study the score thoroughly you have a very good idea as how that piece of music should sound, artistic interpretation aside. As the music is played and things go well, it is an unbelievable joy as the information from my ears and eyes merge beautifully in the head, in total harmony. Those are the heavenly moments. However, if the two don’t merge and refuse to play well together, you can’t help it but want to do something to make it just right. It is the inability (or very limited) to do something with “archival” style recording makes me feel helpless and unfulfilled.


I was very lucky to have received heavy duty musical training both at the Curtis Institute of Music and the Juilliard School as a violinist. Perhaps that was where the occupational hazard had started. The life style of a soloist which I assumed leaving school I learnt quickly was not well suited for me, I didn’t enjoy traveling almost daily. It turned out making recordings as 2nd career was a good fit. I love listening to good music, especially something well recorded, carefully produced and brilliantly performed. Doing so makes me very happy and extremely enjoyable. Being a musician myself, I have the utmost respect, admiration and empathy toward the musicians I work with. We seem to develop mutual understanding and good report very quickly, as well as the long-lasting friendship out of our encounters.



You can call this egotistic. But I like to think of it as a calling. I get to serve the music.



All the best,

Da-Hong
Old 21st May 2020
  #74
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by dseetoo View Post
It is an occupational hazard such it becomes rather difficult for me to enjoy music outright from a live performance. Having the ability to analyze and disseminate the music from good, to not so good, to the bad, phrase by phrase, measure by measure and note by note all in real-time is a gift for what I do, but also a curse. The classical music I record all have prepared score. Once you study the score thoroughly you have a very good idea as how that piece of music should sound, artistic interpretation aside.
How are your scores "prepared"...are they different from the way the composer wrote it down or had it published ? Or do you mean you divide it up into sections for recording...perhaps the way a conductor might for rehearsal ?

I'm trying to fit this approach of yours to other fields of endeavour, but I can't make it happen: the racing car driver who's unable go watch other races as a spectator...because the drivers don't take the corners or employ exactly the tactics he would. The chef who's unable to enjoy a meal in some other restaurant than his own, because their way of preparing the food differs from his. The sound engineer unable to attend a concert with enjoyment, because the house sound tech uses different delays and eq to those he would employ, if he were mixing the concert.

I'm sure these extreme examples would strike us as sad, unfortunate...even disabling ? We certainly carry some standards around with us which we consider to be absolutes. However real life has a way of confronting us with diversity...valid alternate approaches..new lenses to look through and appreciate, if we open ourselves to them.

Some even say this latest pandemonium is having a similar loosening effect on our rigid psyches, if we embrace the possibilities it offers (working from home, exercising more, restoring sleep/wake and work/life balances)

I think I want to be the engineer who enjoys whichever musical gigs and tasks are on offer: archival, sessions, broadcast, informal jams, an eventual return to the capacity-audience concert hall....I'll take it all, and derive some enjoyment and learning from it....and I hope to be challenged and stimulated by the different, the unconventional approaches too !
Old 21st May 2020
  #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dseetoo View Post
(...) it becomes rather difficult for me to enjoy music outright from a live performance (...)
interesting: i've come to prefer live performances - regardless of preparation/advancing in any form, i like the tension rising right before the first note gets played, the maximum focus and commitment from everyone involved during the concert/performance, the audience being part of the event/sensation.

i feel very priviledged being the 'first listener'/becoming the messenger for an even larger audience, trying to find a balance between doing no (or not too much) harm to the music while technically realizing the production (and hence shaping and carrying the music to a wider audience)...
Old 21st May 2020
  #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
How are your scores "prepared"...are they different from the way the composer wrote it down or had it published ? Or do you mean you divide it up into sections for recording...perhaps the way a conductor might for rehearsal ?

I'm trying to fit this approach of yours to other fields of endeavour, but I can't make it happen: the racing car driver who's unable go watch other races as a spectator...because the drivers don't take the corners or employ exactly the tactics he would. The chef who's unable to enjoy a meal in some other restaurant than his own, because their way of preparing the food differs from his. The sound engineer unable to attend a concert with enjoyment, because the house sound tech uses different delays and eq to those he would employ, if he were mixing the concert.

I'm sure these extreme examples would strike us as sad, unfortunate...even disabling ? We certainly carry some standards around with us which we consider to be absolutes. However real life has a way of confronting us with diversity...valid alternate approaches..new lenses to look through and appreciate, if we open ourselves to them.

Some even say this latest pandemonium is having a similar loosening effect on our rigid psyches, if we embrace the possibilities it offers (working from home, exercising more, restoring sleep/wake and work/life balances)

I think I want to be the engineer who enjoys whichever musical gigs and tasks are on offer: archival, sessions, broadcast, informal jams, an eventual return to the capacity-audience concert hall....I'll take it all, and derive some enjoyment and learning from it....and I hope to be challenged and stimulated by the different, the unconventional approaches too !


Everybody can do these; If someone is saying something to you, perhaps something not too complicated, you can pretty much translate the words into text and make the text to show up on a piece of imaginary paper in your head. You can read the text with eyes closed. Likewise, when you read something off from a piece of paper silently, you understood the meaning of the text and you can hear an imaginary voice reciting those text to you, again in your head. One can do this because he learnt how to read and write, paying lots of attention to the sound of the speech and image of the text while developing the visual and aural memory and figuring out a way to retrieve those memory.

It is no different with music. As a well-trained musician, you listen to some music that is well presented to you, you recognize the pitch of every note, the tonality of the instruments, the structure of the composition, markings of the dynamics, tempos related to the performance, etc., soon the written score of that music start to appear in your head. On the reversed side, when you look at sheet of music, you see the notes, the way how they are related to each other, the pitch of every note, the instrument assignment, compositional intent, the music expression markings, so on and so forth, you start to hear that piece of music playing in your head. My professors always talked about listening to music with your eyes and read the music with your ears. I think it is a particular set of skill and ability that is slowly and deliberately developed.


I know race car drivers do this, too. They study the map of the course, practice the race by driving through loop again and again. Memorize every turn, how much to bank, how much to break, all the nitty-gritty. Then, they practice the race in their head over and over before the actual event. I bet you they can draw out the map of the course by memory in great details before the race. Later, if you present that map to the driver he can pretty much imagine the exact experience of driving through that course.
Old 21st May 2020
  #77
Lives for gear
Yes, I can picture what you are intending to convey now Da Hong...the intensity of the visualization and the tactile, dimensional nature of the music (and the complexity of the car-driver's rehearsal too !) Well expressed and rendered too..Thank You !

I think I see something similar, at the Olympic Games, in the quiet contemplation of the floor gymnast or the high board diver, during those few seconds before they execute their highly precise, split-second manœuvre
Old 31st May 2020
  #78
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It’s funny how threads evolve...
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