The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
Millennia HV3 and Gordon mic preamps
Old 17th January 2006
  #91
Lives for gear
 
jpupo74's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel L. Lord
Number one was a clear winner to me--I picked blindly just now after a few repeats of alternating cuts. So...

Hi Samuel,

Have you AB them with Laake-People Audio preamps?

Regards,
Pupo
Old 17th January 2006
  #92
Gear Maniac
 

...now I heard the wav files--plosives of STT starker, bass and depth from Gordon more honest, 3d. The Gordon at first sounds more tubular with an apparently buttery, slippery top, but the transparency across the range demonstrates more honest sound in general. Thanks Steve and Soundog.

Last edited by Sam Lord; 17th January 2006 at 11:47 PM.. Reason: plosives not percussion doh
Old 17th January 2006
  #93
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jpupo74
Hi Samuel, Have you AB them with Laake-People Audio preamps?
Regards, Pupo
Sorry no, but I will check out other comparisons--soon will get 3DAudio Preamp DVD...Take care, Sam
Old 11th February 2006
  #94
Here for the gear
 

Original Gordon v. Millenia comparison

Thanks for posting the original comparison of the Gordon and Millenia.

I thought the second recording was more natural, felt more immediate, with greater resolution and sense of separation of the vocal lines - so musically it felt more complete and satisfying to listen to. So my preference on the acapella vocals was the Millenia hands down.

I have not been able to open the further four files that were posted ..... Its like standing outside not having a ticket to the show- #@*&%$!

Pointsnorth
Old 18th February 2006
  #95
Here for the gear
 
The Owl's Avatar
 

Original Gordon v. Millenia comparison

I second the opinion of the previous poster >Its like standing outside not having a ticket to the show- #@*&%$!<

I also would like to hear the Gordon vrs. Pendulum sample posted here but it won't open in my system as well ?

Windows media player reports I do not have the proper Codec installed..

Which format is thei Gordon-Pendulum sample posted in ?
Where do I find the right Codec..

I have listened to lots of audio samples on this site but this one is a nogo.

Help Please :-)

Thanks !
Old 18th February 2006
  #96
Lives for gear
 
jpupo74's Avatar
Hi All,

Some other issue involving these AB comparisons is the fact that not every mic "feels comfortable" beeing chained with certain preamps, Millenia, GML, Gordons. Sometimes we forget how important matching is and judge a mic ir a mic preamp in a specific chain. It's better to try just to know the gear and analyze how certain mics work through certain preamps. This is a more obejctive approach.

On mic pres I really want to try are the Fred Forsselle's models, I've heard that they're buil to the highest standards of engineering and by a great designer.

Regards,
Pupo
Old 18th February 2006
  #97
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Owl
Windows media player reports I do not have the proper Codec installed..

Which format is thei Gordon-Pendulum sample posted in ?
The Gordon-Pendulum files are 48k 24-bit .wav format. My Windows Media Player 10 won't play 24 bit files.... so maybe try another player like Winamp, foobar, Audacity, etc.

There are some links to other Gordon comparisons to A-Designs as well in this thread.

re the matching mics -- I've used about 30 different mics into all those preamps I've tested, and preferred the Gordon on every single one. I think it doesn't worry about matching so much as some... having the input at 2 Mohm impedance just doesn't cause any interference or loading with the mics. Mainly the issue becomes getting the right mic for the performer.

Steve
Old 19th February 2006
  #98
Lives for gear
 
jpupo74's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by squeegybug
The Gordon-Pendulum files are 48k 24-bit .wav format. My Windows Media Player 10 won't play 24 bit files.... so maybe try another player like Winamp, foobar, Audacity, etc.

There are some links to other Gordon comparisons to A-Designs as well in this thread.

re the matching mics -- I've used about 30 different mics into all those preamps I've tested, and preferred the Gordon on every single one. I think it doesn't worry about matching so much as some... having the input at 2 Mohm impedance just doesn't cause any interference or loading with the mics. Mainly the issue becomes getting the right mic for the performer.

Steve
Hi Steve,

I was not talking just about impedance matching, design make a huge difference when testing different chains but it's nice to see that Gordons work nice on everything.

Regards,
Pupo
Old 17th April 2015
  #99
Gear Addict
 

Hi what a difference in complexity ...





Amazing
Regards, gino

Last edited by ginetto61; 18th April 2015 at 10:20 AM..
Old 20th April 2015
  #100
Lives for gear
 
Adebar's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by ginetto61 View Post
Hi what a difference in complexity ...
Amazing
Regards, gino
Actually your picture doen´t show the current Model 5. This you can see here
http://www.gordonaudio.com/images/Mod5%20int2.jpg
Old 20th April 2015
  #101
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adebar View Post
Actually your picture doen´t show the current Model 5. This you can see here
http://www.gordonaudio.com/images/Mod5%20int2.jpg
Hi and thanks a lot for the interesting information.
I have to clarify that i am sincerely fascinated by these wonderful units ...
They are too me like a modern sculpture of some artist. Just beautiful.
but sometimes i wonder if complexity is really needed.
Even a simple op-amp, correctly used, can provide a huge voltage gain with unbelievably low distortion and noise.
And i would also prefer a mono solution ... with the two channels completely identical and separated.
Thanks again, gino
Old 20th April 2015
  #102
Lives for gear
 
MichaelPatrick's Avatar
 

The electrical engineering of Gordon amplifiers is genius. Most of the circuitry you see in there is not in the signal path, it surrounds, monitors and manages a very simple signal path to keep the signal itself pure. Grant has reduced noise to as low as it can be within the limits of physics. I doubt another amplifier exists on the planet with better phase accuracy. Think about sonar amplification in a ship or sub where reliably accurate acoustic signatures are absolutely required to identify friends and foes.
Old 20th April 2015
  #103
Lives for gear
 
nosebleedaudio's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ginetto61 View Post
Hi and thanks a lot for the interesting information.
I have to clarify that i am sincerely fascinated by these wonderful units ...
They are too me like a modern sculpture of some artist. Just beautiful.
but sometimes i wonder if complexity is really needed.
Even a simple op-amp, correctly used, can provide a huge voltage gain with unbelievably low distortion and noise.
And i would also prefer a mono solution ... with the two channels completely identical and separated.
Thanks again, gino
I prefer a VERY short signal path with minimum components for many reasons...
Old 20th April 2015
  #104
Lives for gear
 
MichaelPatrick's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by nosebleedaudio View Post
I prefer a VERY short signal path with minimum components for many reasons...
Ironically, that describes the Gordon signal path perfectly. Grant Carpenter, the designer, takes phone calls and is glad to explain how the extra components work to surround and support a very short signal path. The design includes such considerations as optimal grounding and hysteresis from all the active and inactive components having a potential effect on the signal path.
Old 20th April 2015
  #105
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelPatrick View Post
The electrical engineering of Gordon amplifiers is genius.
Most of the circuitry you see in there is not in the signal path, it surrounds, monitors and manages a very simple signal path to keep the signal itself pure. Grant has reduced noise to as low as it can be within the limits of physics.
I doubt another amplifier exists on the planet with better phase accuracy.
Think about sonar amplification in a ship or sub where reliably accurate acoustic signatures are absolutely required to identify friends and foes
Hi and thanks a lot for the very interesting information.
A truly gifted designer and exceptional preamp.
I understand that it also measures exceptionally well. So it is confirmed the relation between measurements and sound quality. This is a good news.
One question about phase accuracy. How can it be measured ?
I am very ignorant on the subject.
Thanks a lot, gino
Old 20th April 2015
  #106
Lives for gear
 
didier.brest's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelPatrick View Post
I doubt another amplifier exists on the planet with better phase accuracy.
Millenia HV-3 (the other one of concern in this thread):

Quote:
Phase Response, 35 dB Gain, 50 Hz - 20 kHz bandwidth, +27 dBu Out
< 2 degrees deviation
How much for the Gordon ?
Old 20th April 2015
  #107
Lives for gear
 
nosebleedaudio's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ginetto61 View Post
Hi and thanks a lot for the very interesting information.
A truly gifted designer and exceptional preamp.
I understand that it also measures exceptionally well. So it is confirmed the relation between measurements and sound quality. This is a good news.
One question about phase accuracy. How can it be measured ?
I am very ignorant on the subject.
Thanks a lot, gino
Would like to know this (Phase accuracy) also, since it's NOT on the Specs..
The 990enh shows ALL the specs, the Gordon also does NOT list distortion...
The Noise is about the same as the JM-530 I build...-128.5 EIN @ 150 Ohms...
Old 20th April 2015
  #108
If you are looking for phase accuracy and no deviation from linear phase, the Audio Upgrades High Speed mic pre measures zero degrees from 20~20k hz. This is because the bandwidth is 30 mhz. THD+noise is also low at .0005%. IMD is .00015%. EIN at 50 ohms is -133 db. It is a unique current feedback design without the traditional -6 db/octave roll-offs found in all other designs.
Old 20th April 2015
  #109
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Williams View Post
If you are looking for phase accuracy and no deviation from linear phase, the Audio Upgrades High Speed mic pre measures zero degrees from 20~20k hz. This is because the bandwidth is 30 mhz. THD+noise is also low at .0005%. IMD is .00015%. EIN at 50 ohms is -133 db. It is a unique current feedback design without the traditional -6 db/octave roll-offs found in all other designs.
Hi and wow ! what figures !
i guess it must be a benchmark unit specs wise ... extremely impressive.
It looks like the famous wire with gain ... no distorsion/noise to speak of.
I wonder how this reflects on sound.
Thanks for the interesting information.
Kind regards, gino
Old 20th April 2015
  #110
Lives for gear
 
MichaelPatrick's Avatar
 

For more detailed information just call Grant at Gordon Audio. He's very helpful with information 1:1 and avoids publishing specs that have no consistent control reference in the audio industry. The amplifier is an RF device crafted for audio applications.

Last edited by MichaelPatrick; 20th April 2015 at 07:52 PM..
Old 22nd April 2015
  #111
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ginetto61 View Post
[. . .] but sometimes i wonder if complexity is really needed.
Even a simple op-amp, correctly used, can provide a huge voltage gain with unbelievably low distortion and noise.
And i would also prefer a mono solution ... with the two channels completely identical and separated.
Thanks again, gino
That "simple" op amp's signal path can have several fixed stages constantly subjecting your signal to extremely high open-loop gain (up to 100dB or more) regardless of your gain control setting. The Gordon's signal path has 2 discrete stages, 3 at higher gain settings, applying only the gain selected on the gain control. The complexity comes with further optimizing what is in the signal path for a wide dynamic range over a wide bandwidth across the entire gain range with extreme stability in a variety of setups and conditions.

As for your mono pair solution, there is the Model 4, but for a lower cost, some considerable effort went into the design and symmetrical layout of the Model 5 to match characteristics, isolate channels, and be sonically interchangeable with the Model 4.
Quote:
Originally Posted by didier.brest
Millenia HV-3 (the other one of concern in this thread):

Quote:
Phase Response, 35 dB Gain, 50 Hz - 20 kHz bandwidth, +27 dBu Out
< 2 degrees deviation
How much for the Gordon ?
Effectively the same, < 2 degrees, but less than because the test accuracy is +/- 0.5 degrees at 50Hz and +/- 2 degrees at 20kHz. Not coincidentally, the bandwidth (3Hz-300kHz) is also about the same and is an easier to measure, more widely used spec.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nosebleedaudio
Would like to know this (Phase accuracy) also, since it's NOT on the Specs..
The 990enh shows ALL the specs, the Gordon also does NOT list distortion...
The Noise is about the same as the JM-530 I build...-128.5 EIN @ 150 Ohms...
The published specs are limited (despite the appearance) to what end users and I have found helpful over time in selecting or applying mic pres. Specs for distortion and phase shift simply didn't make the cut. Some of this may be mic preamp (or system) specs versus op amp (component) specs. If you would like a THD+N number, list all of your parameters and I'll be happy to work it up.

Noise did make the cut, but with conditions and caveats. For example, a comparison of noise specs with different test parameters is suspect. Even with the same parameters, how accurate is the test rig? Even with the same test rig, two preamps can measure the same level, but sound differently and vice versa. In short, noise specs can vary for a variety of reasons and with or without correlation to audible noise level or effects. The same could be said for distortion specs. . . .

Just my take--thanks for the interest and replies.

Grant Carpenter
Gordon Instruments
Old 23rd April 2015
  #112
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grant Carpenter View Post
That "simple" op amp's signal path can have several fixed stages constantly subjecting your signal to extremely high open-loop gain (up to 100dB or more) regardless of your gain control setting. The Gordon's signal path has 2 discrete stages, 3 at higher gain settings, applying only the gain selected on the gain control.
The complexity comes with further optimizing what is in the signal path for a wide dynamic range over a wide bandwidth across the entire gain range with extreme stability in a variety of setups and conditions.
As for your mono pair solution, there is the Model 4, but for a lower cost, some considerable effort went into the design and symmetrical layout of the Model 5 to match characteristics, isolate channels, and be sonically interchangeable with the Model 4.
Effectively the same, < 2 degrees, but less than because the test accuracy is +/- 0.5 degrees at 50Hz and +/- 2 degrees at 20kHz. Not coincidentally, the bandwidth (3Hz-300kHz) is also about the same and is an easier to measure, more widely used spec.
The published specs are limited (despite the appearance) to what end users and I have found helpful over time in selecting or applying mic pres. Specs for distortion and phase shift simply didn't make the cut. Some of this may be mic preamp (or system) specs versus op amp (component) specs. If you would like a THD+N number, list all of your parameters and I'll be happy to work it up.
Noise did make the cut, but with conditions and caveats. For example, a comparison of noise specs with different test parameters is suspect. Even with the same parameters, how accurate is the test rig?
Even with the same test rig, two preamps can measure the same level, but sound differently and vice versa. In short, noise specs can vary for a variety of reasons and with or without correlation to audible noise level or effects. The same could be said for distortion specs. . . .
Just my take--thanks for the interest and replies.
Grant Carpenter
Gordon Instruments
Hi Mr. Carpenter,
thank you very much indeed for your very kind and extremely valuable reply.
I was clearly and wrongly trivializing the all issue, much more complex and challenging than what my mind can imagine.
Clearly mics and mic preamps are a very fascinating aspect of recording.
They together create the sound.
As famous mics also best mic preamps are almost object of cult.
I was seeing mic preamps as phono preamps without the RIA equalization circuits. The requirements in terms of gain, noise and distortion i think are quite similar, more or less.
Therefore i was thinking that op-amps are indeed a possible option because i am aware of phono preamps of very high level based on correctly selected and used op-amps (one for instance is the Sutherland depicted here).



I still think that best op-amps have a huge potential.
Moreover they give the option to use batteries that above other things provide complete independence from the mains and their nasty noise.
But i understand now better that for very top performance discrete designs offer a flexibility that no op-amp can give.
Thanks a lot again for the very valuable advice.
Kindest regards, gino
Old 23rd April 2015
  #113
Lives for gear
 
nosebleedaudio's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grant Carpenter View Post
That "simple" op amp's signal path can have several fixed stages constantly subjecting your signal to extremely high open-loop gain (up to 100dB or more) regardless of your gain control setting. The Gordon's signal path has 2 discrete stages, 3 at higher gain settings, applying only the gain selected on the gain control. The complexity comes with further optimizing what is in the signal path for a wide dynamic range over a wide bandwidth across the entire gain range with extreme stability in a variety of setups and conditions.

As for your mono pair solution, there is the Model 4, but for a lower cost, some considerable effort went into the design and symmetrical layout of the Model 5 to match characteristics, isolate channels, and be sonically interchangeable with the Model 4.

Effectively the same, < 2 degrees, but less than because the test accuracy is +/- 0.5 degrees at 50Hz and +/- 2 degrees at 20kHz. Not coincidentally, the bandwidth (3Hz-300kHz) is also about the same and is an easier to measure, more widely used spec.

The published specs are limited (despite the appearance) to what end users and I have found helpful over time in selecting or applying mic pres. Specs for distortion and phase shift simply didn't make the cut. Some of this may be mic preamp (or system) specs versus op amp (component) specs. If you would like a THD+N number, list all of your parameters and I'll be happy to work it up.

Noise did make the cut, but with conditions and caveats. For example, a comparison of noise specs with different test parameters is suspect. Even with the same parameters, how accurate is the test rig? Even with the same test rig, two preamps can measure the same level, but sound differently and vice versa. In short, noise specs can vary for a variety of reasons and with or without correlation to audible noise level or effects. The same could be said for distortion specs. . . .

Just my take--thanks for the interest and replies.

Grant Carpenter
Gordon Instruments
I would doubt engineers like Chuck Ainlay, Al Schmitt ect would buy a Mic pre just because the specs look good, But their Tech's MAY want to see how it compares...And would pop the top to have a look, I would...

They want to HEAR it...
Old 23rd April 2015
  #114
Lives for gear
If Chuck Ainlay, Al Schmitt, Sylvia Massey, Daniel Lanois et al don't have access to a wide range of pres..from highly colourful and 'characterful' to squeaky clean and pristine, I'd be very surprised.

Would they rely on techs to advise them on which is which..I doubt it ? They would use their ears, and purchase/rent/loan/endorse as they see fit to fill in gaps in their inventory.

These folks have trademark ways of operating, and would use tools as needed to support these methods. Brand loyalty probably doesn't influence their choices, any more than sheer performance specs alone would, any I doubt they are subservient to their tech's input alone either ?

What does looking at a circuit board tell you anyway... less than a spec sheet perhaps ?
Old 23rd April 2015
  #115
Lives for gear
 
nosebleedaudio's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
If Chuck Ainlay, Al Schmitt, Sylvia Massey, Daniel Lanois et al don't have access to a wide range of pres..from highly colourful and 'characterful' to squeaky clean and pristine, I'd be very surprised.

Would they rely on techs to advise them on which is which..I doubt it ? They would use their ears, and purchase/rent/loan/endorse as they see fit to fill in gaps in their inventory.

These folks have trademark ways of operating, and would use tools as needed to support these methods. Brand loyalty probably doesn't influence their choices, any more than sheer performance specs alone would, any I doubt they are subservient to their tech's input alone either ?

What does looking at a circuit board tell you anyway... less than a spec sheet perhaps ?
would HAVE TO DISAGREE, A good tech will tell you if the gear is truly good or just OK...Design, components, workmanship ect...I would for sure...

Like I mentioned they want to HEAR it...
Old 23rd April 2015
  #116
Lives for gear
.....well then, let the man speak for himself...ok, on mics here and not pres..but it doesn't sound like he trusts anyone else to sub for his own ears ? What YOU would do is your own affair.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnDFVP9TWbA
Old 23rd April 2015
  #117
Lives for gear
 
nosebleedaudio's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
.....well then, let the man speak for himself...ok, on mics here and not pres..but it doesn't sound like he trusts anyone else to sub for his own ears ? What YOU would do is your own affair.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnDFVP9TWbA
Your right there, what I do is my own affair...You need to read what I REALLY say...
I guess you don't remember or was not around a few years ago when MANY real studios had a Staff Tech that came in every day...He was involved in ALL decisions regarding audio gear...

Enough time wasted on this...
Old 23rd April 2015
  #118
Lives for gear
well, maybe the GFC put an end to that...there's been downsizing since then, and a lot of these engineers are now freelancers and there's a blurring of roles and tasks, so maybe the techs moved on elsewhere, while the engineers took on the tech's role to some degree ? The way Al talks in the video would suggest that.

Also, remember that gear is more reliable now, doesn't need so much maintenance, calibration, tweaking, TLC....even tube stuff

Techs used to align tape machines too...how much of that is called for nowadays ? The accountants and bean counters probably advise on gear purchases...
Old 23rd April 2015
  #119
Quote:
Originally Posted by ginetto61 View Post
Hi and wow ! what figures !
i guess it must be a benchmark unit specs wise ... extremely impressive.
It looks like the famous wire with gain ... no distorsion/noise to speak of.
I wonder how this reflects on sound.
Thanks for the interesting information.
Kind regards, gino
It is a different design topology than the traditional voltage feedback audio designs. The amplifier's bandwidth is set by the current across feedback resistors, not voltage. There are no bandlimiting capacitors besides the rf traps used on the front end. Bandwidth is 30 mhz and maintains that huge bandwidth even at +60 db of gain. Voltage feedback designs (all of the rest of the mic preamps out there) suffer from reduced bandwidth vs higher gain. This is partially why many of them degrade specs at higher gains, they run out of loop gain bandwidth.

Current feedback amplifiers sound more like a tube in the low end, mostly 2nd and 4th harmonics. Voltage feedback transistor designs tend to show mostly odd harmonics with the 3rd and 5th being dominate. It's almost impossible to describe the sonics of current feedback audio designs as most have never heard them. Wire with gain or clear water sound is used occasionally.
Old 23rd April 2015
  #120
Lives for gear
 
nosebleedaudio's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Williams View Post
It is a different design topology than the traditional voltage feedback audio designs. The amplifier's bandwidth is set by the current across feedback resistors, not voltage. There are no bandlimiting capacitors besides the rf traps used on the front end. Bandwidth is 30 mhz and maintains that huge bandwidth even at +60 db of gain. Voltage feedback designs (all of the rest of the mic preamps out there) suffer from reduced bandwidth vs higher gain. This is partially why many of them degrade specs at higher gains, they run out of loop gain bandwidth.

Current feedback amplifiers sound more like a tube in the low end, mostly 2nd and 4th harmonics. Voltage feedback transistor designs tend to show mostly odd harmonics with the 3rd and 5th being dominate. It's almost impossible to describe the sonics of current feedback audio designs as most have never heard them. Wire with gain or clear water sound is used occasionally.
Not ALL Mic pres Jim, The JM-530 at Max gain changes VERY little...
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Forum Jump
Forum Jump