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Which cables do you used?
Old 25th June 2019
  #571
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Sounds Great's Avatar
 

Your graphs all look pretty much the same, including the comparison of the same piece of wire. Proving that any difference from null is a function of the testing procedure itself.

Not quite sure what the shape of the Earth has to do with any of this.
Old 25th June 2019
  #572
Gear Maniac
 

Great work Will, thanks! Could you share your thoughts of why, when silver was compared to both the CarboKab and TRP, the difference from silver to each did not show up when CarboKab was compared with TRP?

I use CarboKab for my DAC's outputs to their respective five amplifiers, each of which are driving full size SoundLab electrostatic speakers. I'm only 5 to 6 feet away from each, so use the CarboKab to tame the excessive brightness listened to in the near field. Your measurements aid my listening impressions.

Thanks again!
Tom
Old 25th June 2019
  #573
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tailspn View Post
Great work Will, thanks! Could you share your thoughts of why, when silver was compared to both the CarboKab and TRP, the difference from silver to each did not show up when CarboKab was compared with TRP?

I use CarboKab for my DAC's outputs to their respective five amplifiers, each of which are driving full size SoundLab electrostatic speakers. I'm only 5 to 6 feet away from each, so use the CarboKab to tame the excessive brightness listened to in the near field. Your measurements aid my listening impressions.

Thanks again!
Tom
Tailspn you should listen to gotham 5x shielded balanced cable. I also have carbocab, and it never gets used anymore. The gotham is very detailed, without the wrong highend of many cables, including trp. The first impression is it is much too soft, until you realise it is actually more detailed than a hyped cable ...
Old 25th June 2019
  #574
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by whippoorwill View Post
Four null tests

Largest difference: neotech silver vs sommer carbokab
Next: Neotech silver vs Grimm TPR
Then: Neotech silver vs Vovox
Smallest Difference: Grimm TPR vs Sommer Carbokab
All Balanced, all under 1.5m of cabling.

Test procedure:
1.) send MONO pink noise out of RME ADI-2 Pro @ 96khz through both cables and then back into the AD
2.) take each AD input and send them to one channel with one phase reversed.
3.) monitor and screenshot the result.

I also included Vovox vs Vovox.
so, I'll just take cover while the naysayers figure out how to prove the earth is still flat, despite audible, testable, repeatable differences...
Thanks a lot for these. One thing I think that would also be useful would be to run the same cable multiple times as a control to check that it nulls with itself and if you get different results with the same cable.

Just seen that it looks like the vovox vs vovox doesn't null with itself? Is that right?
Old 25th June 2019
  #575
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yannick View Post
Tailspn you should listen to gotham 5x shielded balanced cable. I also have carbocab, and it never gets used anymore. The gotham is very detailed, without the wrong highend of many cables, including trp. The first impression is it is much too soft, until you realise it is actually more detailed than a hyped cable ...
Hi Yannick,

Sounds like the sonic description of DSD

Are you referring to GAC-2 Ultra Pro, part# 10561?

Thanks!
Old 25th June 2019
  #576
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Ultra pro it is. I find the ultra pro starquad equal, but difficult to get into a xlr plug ... probably with 5 shields one does not really need starquad anymore.

I solder the ultra pro with the common shield to chassis and the internal shields to pin one. A bit like the three conductor gotham cables.
Old 26th June 2019
  #577
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Williams View Post
The depth of the null and the associated THD and noise contributions must be separated from the DUT. That is why folks use Audio Precision analyzers.
What do you make of Ethan Winer's null tester?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZyWt3kANA3Q&t

Is there something that he is missing? He does talk about the heat in the circuit effecting the test. Something that I guess would come into play when using a convertor as well.

https://youtu.be/ZyWt3kANA3Q?t=986

This is the section where he talks about his null tester and the tests themselves.
Old 26th June 2019
  #578
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If his custom output/split box is just passive split wires, then he is connecting both cables under test.
Old 26th June 2019
  #579
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yannick View Post
If his custom output/split box is just passive split wires, then he is connecting both cables under test.
Not sure, I don't think it is.
Old 26th June 2019
  #580
I've run several different cables through the Audio Precision analyzer years ago for fun. All short lengths (3 to 10 feet) for testing purposes. I got analyzer residuals every time, they all looked the same down to -130~140 db.

"A man's got to know his limitations" ~ Dirty Harry.

Or at least the limitations of his test gear.
Old 7th July 2019
  #581
Gear Head
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yannick View Post
The new gotham ultra pro (dual conductor or star quad) is IMO the best of the gotham series.

I would urge the OP to buy two lengths of this, even if it is (only) 4x more expensive. If you solder your own, the difference is small for eg 2x 10m.

It is significantly better than the gac2,3,4 IMO. Also, note that conductor resistance is much lower than gac3, capacitance much lower, shielding even better, handling worse, and finally the conductor insulation is not the standard pvc spec, which is regarded buy almost the entire industry as bad sounding.

Now if you think there is no interaction between the conductor and the insulator, think again, and do some research.

I wired my ultra pros such that they use the internal shields on pin1, and the external shield on the shell.

I bought two lengths of Grim TPR a few weeks ago, they sound worse than my 15 year old gac4 cables. I can only use them for aes connection, luckily they meet the spec. Or give them away ...
What's the sonic difference between dual and quad here? Also, which one would be best for d/a - to active monitors? (TRS)
Which connectors do you use and where to buy these cables? I am in Europe
Thanks!
Old 22nd July 2019
  #582
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https://www.headphonesty.com/2018/06...really-matter/

This seems to be a well rounded description of the factors involved in cable construction, plus break-in, cryo treatment etc. An aspect I was unaware of was the claimed conductive properties of the dielectric materials. Weren't they intended to be non-conductive in principle ?
Old 22nd July 2019
  #583
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yannick View Post
Ultra pro it is. I find the ultra pro starquad equal, but difficult to get into a xlr plug ... probably with 5 shields one does not really need starquad anymore.
Do you know a source that would sell 20 Meters of 11301 GAC-4/1 Ultra Pro?

Gotham Audio US no longer has a relationship with Gotham AG, and Gotham AG's minimum order for export is 200 Meters.

Thanks!
Old 23rd July 2019
  #584
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FWIW it might be worth contacting Gotham AG, even for less than 200m. In January or February I contacted them and they had a couple of odd lengths available, each at less than 200m and so I ordered one of them.
Old 23rd July 2019
  #585
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Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
https://www.headphonesty.com/2018/06...really-matter/

This seems to be a well rounded description of the factors involved in cable construction, plus break-in, cryo treatment etc. An aspect I was unaware of was the claimed conductive properties of the dielectric materials. Weren't they intended to be non-conductive in principle ?
That is perhaps the best write-up about analog audio cable difference I have read. Thank you for posting the link.
Old 23rd July 2019
  #586
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tailspn View Post
Gotham Audio US no longer has a relationship with Gotham AG, and Gotham AG's minimum order for export is 200 Meters.
I've been requested by Lewis Frisch, owner of Gotham Audio US, and a long time valued dealer, to clarify my Gotham AG relationship statement.

Lewis Frisch continues to do business as Gotham Audio (USA) and Gotham Audio Sales Co. supplying a wide range of Lincoln Heritage Series and GAC cable assemblies made with Gotham Cable. Many of these are sold through an on-line vendor, THE SOUND PARCEL. In addition, Gotham Audio (USA) continues the sale of bulk Gotham cable from their remaining inventory. While some part numbers have sold out or are available only in limited quantities, many others are in good supply. Addresses, websites and phone numbers remain unchanged.

Apologies to anyone affected by my too broad a statement!

Thanks!
Tom
Old 23rd July 2019
  #587
I'm installing some Kimber Black Pearls 26 awg solid pure silver/Teflon wire to replace the fader wiring in a Soundcraft console that is here. That is the same wire I used in my console.

I also use that amazing wire from capsules to tube grids or jfet gates in capacitor microphones, I never heard anything close to that resolution.
Old 23rd July 2019
  #588
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Williams View Post
I'm installing some Kimber Black Pearls 26 awg solid pure silver/Teflon wire to replace the fader wiring in a Soundcraft console that is here. That is the same wire I used in my console.

I also use that amazing wire from capsules to tube grids or jfet gates in capacitor microphones, I never heard anything close to that resolution.
I can't find any info about it, can you point me to a website?
Old 23rd July 2019
  #589
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Sounds Great's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Williams View Post
I never heard anything close to that resolution.
Cool story bro!
Old 23rd July 2019
  #590
Here for the gear
 

"I never heard anything close to that resolution..."

Please go peddle that snake oil somewhere else. The notions that a) three inch long pieces of wire connecting a $2.50 pot/fader to a circuit board will make any difference whatsoever, and b) less than an inch of wire inside a tube mic could possible affect anything, are both utterly absurd. (Unless, of course, the original manufacturers accidentally substituted wet shoelaces for the wires- then you may be onto something.)

Setting aside the cold realities of physics for a minute, how could a listener possibly AB test re-wired mixer faders or the "improved" innards of a tube mic to know they're somehow superior? Obviously they can't- and if a re-wired fader sounds "better" than other channels on the board which haven't been re-wired yet, there are about three hundred possible explanations.

Here's a hint. When you wax your car, it always seems to go faster and run better. In reality, nothing has changed.
Old 24th July 2019
  #591
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul T 702 View Post
Here's a hint. When you wax your car, it always seems to go faster and run better. In reality, nothing has changed.
Lower air friction coefficient ? Yep, I'll buy that, however slight the effect....thing is, it would still have to be measurable/detectable...to validate the perception.
Old 24th July 2019
  #592
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Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
Lower air friction coefficient ? Yep, I'll buy that, however slight the effect....thing is, it would still have to be measurable/detectable...to validate the perception.
But it is very speed dependent.

It does makes a real and measurable difference for a jet flying at 500 mph.

Perhaps some of the cable differences referenced would do the same, at 200 MHz.
Old 24th July 2019
  #593
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul T 702 View Post
"I never heard anything close to that resolution..."

Please go peddle that snake oil somewhere else. The notions that a) three inch long pieces of wire connecting a $2.50 pot/fader to a circuit board will make any difference whatsoever, and b) less than an inch of wire inside a tube mic could possible affect anything, are both utterly absurd. (Unless, of course, the original manufacturers accidentally substituted wet shoelaces for the wires- then you may be onto something.)

Setting aside the cold realities of physics for a minute, how could a listener possibly AB test re-wired mixer faders or the "improved" innards of a tube mic to know they're somehow superior? Obviously they can't- and if a re-wired fader sounds "better" than other channels on the board which haven't been re-wired yet, there are about three hundred possible explanations.

Here's a hint. When you wax your car, it always seems to go faster and run better. In reality, nothing has changed.
I don't wax my car, it's a Jeep Wrangler and wears a coating of protective dirt.

Snake oil? Those words always come out of the mouths that have not auditioned the wire described. Please get back to us when you have.
Old 24th July 2019
  #594
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by gonzalo1004es View Post
I can't find any info about it, can you point me to a website?
This stuff runs about $60 a foot when you can get it.
Old 24th July 2019
  #595
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Show me that a cable that is measurably better, and you have my interest. Otherwise, the confirmation bias in cable swaps is too strong.

This is why companies like Blue Jeans Cable get my business. They care about measurements, and are very clear about what they are selling and for what application it will fit best, with none of the audiophile BS (AKA Snake Oil) companies like Kimber, AudioQuest, etc. trade in.

Here is an article by them debunking the exotic materials like silver conductors which many "audiophile" cable companies use to justify their high prices:

https://www.bluejeanscable.com/artic...cmaterials.htm
Old 24th July 2019
  #596
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voltronic's Avatar
 

Now, returning to the real world:

Mogami is as about as "exotic" as I get in cable purchases, and I buy based on the measurements and the usability of the cable assembly.

I recently have switched to Mogami W2930 snake cable for my balanced cables. It highly flexible and easy to work with, and about as low visual profile as a 2-channel snake cable can be on a stand in front of the stage. I have not yet used it in very long lengths, but the very low capacitance was a major reason for the purchase as well.

http://www.mogamicable.com/category/bulk/snake/
Old 25th July 2019
  #597
Quote:
Originally Posted by voltronic View Post
Show me that a cable that is measurably better, and you have my interest. Otherwise, the confirmation bias in cable swaps is too strong.

This is why companies like Blue Jeans Cable get my business. They care about measurements, and are very clear about what they are selling and for what application it will fit best, with none of the audiophile BS (AKA Snake Oil) companies like Kimber, AudioQuest, etc. trade in.

Here is an article by them debunking the exotic materials like silver conductors which many "audiophile" cable companies use to justify their high prices:

https://www.bluejeanscable.com/artic...cmaterials.htm
Ray Kimber has a very nice lab, I've seen it. Show me another cable designer that has invested $50,000 into an Agilent Network analyzer and a room full of the best test gear.

Then again, those thousands of end users all must be wrong too?
Old 25th July 2019
  #598
Gear Guru
 
Sounds Great's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Williams View Post
Ray Kimber has a very nice lab, I've seen it. Show me another cable designer that has invested $50,000 into an Agilent Network analyzer and a room full of the best test gear.

Then again, those thousands of end users all must be wrong too?

That's your argument, that he spent a bunch on testing gear?

That only means he has to charge that much more for this nonsense.
Old 25th July 2019
  #599
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voltronic's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Williams View Post
Ray Kimber has a very nice lab, I've seen it. Show me another cable designer that has invested $50,000 into an Agilent Network analyzer and a room full of the best test gear.

Then again, those thousands of end users all must be wrong too?
Off the top of my head, I would imagine Belden, Canare, and Mogami have similar testing equipment. The difference is that they publish the results of their testing, so their customers have actual data to help them make informed purchase decisions.

It doesn't matter if Ray Kimber has that expensive analyzer. He's not publishing any test data, so from the customer's standpoint it might as well not even exist.

It is even possible that these expensive cables might actually be doing negative things to the signal, in the same way star quad and its high capacitance causes HF rolloff (which you have pointed out, and we can measure). Now, I have absolutely nothing to back that up, but neither does someone who says they are doing good things to the signal. We cannot verify either position.

And no, I don't consider the thousands of Kimber customers as an endorsement. Not in the slightest.

Look at Bose, for an obvious example. They make a lot of high-priced but also highly-compromised speakers, but they market them very effectively to millions of people that don't understand acoustics or how speakers work.

I find it surprising that on this forum, where no one would purchase an expensive microphone or preamp without seeing at least a basic set of measurements, that cables of similar or greater prices can get a free pass.
Old 26th July 2019
  #600
Gear Head
Quote:
Originally Posted by voltronic View Post
Off the top of my head, I would imagine Belden, Canare, and Mogami have similar testing equipment. The difference is that they publish the results of their testing, so their customers have actual data to help them make informed purchase decisions.

It doesn't matter if Ray Kimber has that expensive analyzer. He's not publishing any test data, so from the customer's standpoint it might as well not even exist.

It is even possible that these expensive cables might actually be doing negative things to the signal, in the same way star quad and its high capacitance causes HF rolloff (which you have pointed out, and we can measure). Now, I have absolutely nothing to back that up, but neither does someone who says they are doing good things to the signal. We cannot verify either position.

And no, I don't consider the thousands of Kimber customers as an endorsement. Not in the slightest.

Look at Bose, for an obvious example. They make a lot of high-priced but also highly-compromised speakers, but they market them very effectively to millions of people that don't understand acoustics or how speakers work.

I find it surprising that on this forum, where no one would purchase an expensive microphone or preamp without seeing at least a basic set of measurements, that cables of similar or greater prices can get a free pass.
Fair arguments and points. I am reading this with a neutral and interested intention. Though I have to ask: do you claim that everything you hear in the difference of cables is measurable by any sense?
I mean, I just know for a fact with speakers that is definitely not the case and not possible. So I am not sure if it's possible with cables then? There is no air movement in between, well okay - but what does it mean in the context
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