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DSD, WDSD and DXD
Old 3 weeks ago
  #271
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string6theory's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plush View Post
For the trashy Stringtheory.
Plushless, you're a DSD curmudgeon if there ever was one. Please tell me how they all suck except what YOU decide to use and when you decide to use. Your posts are all condescending crap, as are your trolly opinions. I've read your so-called opinion ego-posts for years. You, sir, are full of sh!t and that is a fact, imo, of course.

Why you even bother to "enter the DSD fray" as you've said, I have no idea because it's all nonsense. Your DSD opinions and thoughts are ALL OVER THE PLACE and about as consistent as a Bombay garbage heap.

Trashy... fvk you poo pile.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #272
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string6theory's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by tailspn View Post
Without implying a subjective preference, please let me state some facts:

PCM (Pulse Code Modulation) is the representation of an analog signal via discrete MEASURED samples of analog levels with 2's complement binary word(s), yielding numerical digital VALUES. DSD (better described as PDM - Pulse Density Modulation), is the modulation of a carrier (bit clock), whose resulting density of bits (1's or 0's) over time are proportional to the analog modulating signal level. There are no MEASUREMENTS taken, nor any digital VALUES represented. Just a bitstream(s) of 1's and 0's whose density is proportional to the modulating signal level. The PDM modulation device is a Sigma-Delta Modulator.

The irony of the PCM/DSD preference debate, and universal misunderstanding, is that we've all been recording and listening to DSD/PDM for the last two decades, mostly interim converted to PCM! All available A/D converters, and the vast majority of D/A converters, are front end or rear end loaded with Sigma-Delta modulators. Most/all A/D converters have onboard PCM converters consisting of a decimation filter and interpolator to produce PCM word streams, with a few converters allowing a choice between PCM and DSD outputs. All chip based DAC's have PCM > PDM converters to feed their Sigma-Delta modulator output stage for conversion to analog outputs. With both A/D and D/A converters, PDM is the only practical way of achieving 24 bit resolution of their PCM outputs, and supporting the same resolution inputs respectively. An important fact is that both PDM > PCM, and PCM > PDM processes are lossy. That is, you can not create the latter back into the former, for there has been data loss. Whether that's important or not is the subjective preference argument.

Thanks for reading,
Tom

+1 Thanks for posting!


Quote:
Originally Posted by tailspn View Post
By the resultant 1's/0's bit density of the modulation.

I believe most of your questions would be answered by going through the Sample steps of modulation of a SD modulator here:

https://www.embedded.com/the-basics-...al-converters/

The SD modulator only produces a bitstream of 1's and 0's bits, whose density represents percent of modulation by the analog modulating signal waveform. That percentage is proportional to the the modulating signal level, which by the developers convention is 50% modulation is equal to 0dB. Unlike PCM, there's no digital values represented, only percent of modulation.

For me, the most difficult part of understanding PDM/DSD, was putting aside everything I knew about PCM digital encoding, and DSP. There's no equivalency. PDM/DSD is not a digital value representation system, like PCM. It's a modulated carrier system, like radio transmission; only using a bit clock (square wave) as a carrier as opposed to a high frequency sinewave. Same modulation principles involved.
This is an important insight and follows my experience.

I basically treat DSD as analog, because it essentially is. I know that's not technically correct, but in usage it's basically the same. Unless on a high-end, editable hybrid DSD/PCM system, of course. But, then we're not talking "pure" DSD anymore..
Old 3 weeks ago
  #273
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string6theory's Avatar
BTW, lest anyone get the wrong impression of my commentary to long-time GS member Plush, I happen to believe it's well-deserved and a long time coming. So, you're welcome.


A few years back I created a thread about DSD DUBBING, using dual MR2000's to record with sans computer, just like in dem olden days of analog tape.

Plush was the first post troll and his post was "Distortion Box". Way to ruin a thread before it even starts.

yeah, hehe haha, he so funny, only Plush know DSD he tell you himself if you ask.

I've been recording to DSD for years now. And, I LOVE using dual MR (and DA w/remote) units to DUB and record tracks. It sounds PHENOMENAL.

I've never recorded so many songs and albums as I have the last 4 years using this very method. And, if one can't make a DSD to DSD recording sound stunningly good and without sounding like a "distortion box", than one might re-consider their supposed skill level. Trolls putting others down to make themselves feel better and more important is so old.

I now have 4... count them, 4 DSD DUBBING rigs in my home studio rooms (and dual PT HD rigs). So, wherever I'm recording, I can capture to 2 or 4-track DSD very quickly and easily. Everything recorded LIVE with NO edits, no pausing, just playing. I use Audiogate to organize the tracks into albums and play them back at 5.6MHz DSD, just as they were recorded, either with the MR/DA or through a Grace Design monitor controller via USB DoP, or via a Korg DS-DAC-100, a pair of which I recently picked up for a song. They sound fan-fvcking-tastic, as does having a DSD-capable recording rig - that never has to be downsampled to PCM.

So, when some old fool named Plush, whom I've witnessed condescendingly ego-trolling people just like he has me for years, decides he's going to troll me again by calling me "trashy"... well, it's time to set the matter straight.

I'm also personally fed up with all the trolling on this site... the helpful and informative posts are so few and far between these days.

/rant.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #274
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string6theory's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by king2070lplaya View Post
Wow! Don Quixote tilting at the straw men!
Wow, bored, name-calling internet stranger from NY with odd angled eyesight trolling for pleasure!

You and Plush should get along well.

Serial DSD troller @ Plush , meet new DSD troller @ king2070lplaya ... this should be wonderful for the both of yooz.

DSD Mentor-troll and DSD mentee-troll.

Both made of loose grass. Their now dead-DSD-beaten horses ate all their straw prior to their demise.

Thank me later!
Old 3 weeks ago
  #275
Lives for gear
 

no need for bashing dsd: it's got its merits...

...but also its limits: not in sonic terms but due to the fact that it cannot get used as a 'production format' which is what eventually drove me out (besides costs/profitability).

i spent big bucks on dsd and had some business going for a couple of years, selling surround sound 'recordings' to an exclusive circle of enthusiasts - i still have a converter (which was ridiculously expensive at the time) and a recorder; i doubt though i'll need any of them anytime soon again (if ever)...

dsd has always been and will remain to be a niche format, pretty much as analog has become - if you like it (and can afford it), by all means, go for it!
Old 3 weeks ago
  #276
The post you replied to before....

.... was a joke.

The Quixote reference was poking fun at you for taking it so seriously in your answers!

I personally have nothing against DsD.

Being from the Midwest, raised in a culture of prodigious kidding and ****-giving, maybe I come off wrong sometimes. Sorry to offend you so.



Quote:
Originally Posted by string6theory View Post
Wow, bored, name-calling internet stranger from NY with odd angled eyesight trolling for pleasure!

You and Plush should get along well.

Serial DSD troller @ Plush , meet new DSD troller @ king2070lplaya ... this should be wonderful for the both of yooz.

DSD Mentor-troll and DSD mentee-troll.

Both made of loose grass. Their now dead-DSD-beaten horses ate all their straw prior to their demise.

Thank me later!
Old 3 weeks ago
  #277
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Plush's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by string6theory View Post
Plushless, you're a DSD curmudgeon if there ever was one. Please tell me how they all suck except what YOU decide to use and when you decide to use. Your posts are all condescending crap, as are your trolly opinions. I've read your so-called opinion ego-posts for years. You, sir, are full of sh!t and that is a fact, imo, of course.

Why you even bother to "enter the DSD fray" as you've said, I have no idea because it's all nonsense. Your DSD opinions and thoughts are ALL OVER THE PLACE and about as consistent as a Bombay garbage heap.

Trashy... fvk you poo pile.
I care not a whit for your diatribe or opinion.

I receive 1000's of PM's thanking me for helping posters here.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #278
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string6theory's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plush View Post
I care not a whit for your diatribe or opinion.

I receive 1000's of PM's thanking me for helping posters here.
Awe isn't that special for you. 1000's of (supposed) PM's = the right to TROLL endlessly.

You have some strange Pavlovian response to DSD threads and literally HAVE to poop in and attack TROLL.

You don't see a problem with that because you're in your own FART CLOUD and have not a clue how ridiculous your DSD ego-posts actually are.


Anybody doubt me? Do the research yourself. Search DSD threads over the last DECADE and confirm what I'm saying. Not just this forum.

Plush is the GRAND PUBA of DSD-WAFFLER-BASHER-TROLLERS.

Anyone else who has experience with DSD and an opinion that differs from his, gets TROLLED like he's a grade school adolescent giggling in his own fart cloud.

Stop trolling me and ALL DSD threads, FFS.

Enjoy all your 1000's PM's, listen to what Deutsche Grammophon tells you is best, go with that and live a happy life.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #279
Gear Guru
 
Sounds Great's Avatar
I don't have any experience with DSD recording, but I do have SACD's and a player.

The increased sound quality of this format over standard CD's and their WAV files is not small.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #280
Gear Guru
 
Sounds Great's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plush View Post
I care not a whit for your diatribe or opinion.
Apparently.


Quote:

I receive 1000's of PM's thanking me for helping posters here.
Uh, ok then.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #281
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Yannick's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sounds Great View Post
I don't have any experience with DSD recording, but I do have SACD's and a player.

The increased sound quality of this format over standard CD's and their WAV files is not small.
Strange. I bought a fairly good sacd player decades ago, and when i then bought a benchmark dac1, some quick tests revealed it actually sounded better on the redbook layer.

We are now three generations later in dac technology, and the most recent ones sound A LOT better. In my book, that is a lot better than what I recall of sacd tech.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #282
Gear Guru
 
Sounds Great's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yannick View Post
Strange. I bought a fairly good sacd player decades ago, and when i then bought a benchmark dac1, some quick tests revealed it actually sounded better on the redbook layer.
Quick tests, what kind of tests?


Quote:
We are now three generations later in dac technology, and the most recent ones sound A LOT better. In my book, that is a lot better than what I recall of sacd tech.
The very first DAC's 'spec'd better than what the human ear can hear. So how can it be that subsequent generations sound "A LOT better"? Please explain.

And what do you "recall" of SACD tech, and what about that tech makes PCM sound "WAY" better than DSD?
Old 2 weeks ago
  #283
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string6theory's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sounds Great View Post
I don't have any experience with DSD recording, but I do have SACD's and a player.

The increased sound quality of this format over standard CD's and their WAV files is not small.
I'm the opposite! No experience with SACD's and ONLY experience with DSD recording, at 5.6MHz, of course. SACD was of course half that rate, or FS64 vs FS128, respectively.

Recording AND listening DSD > DSD without DECIMATION is the pure digital path, imo. As the folks at Grace Design say, it's stunningly natural.

I'll never stop recording in DSD. It's so worth it for me. (Yeah, PT HD too, but it's not nearly as fun).
Old 2 weeks ago
  #284
Gear Addict
 

I hate to interrupt, but what many people don't understand is we listen to DSD/PDM (Pulse Density Modulation) either natively, or converted to PCM through decimation filtering and interpolation all the time. All available A/D converters today, and for the past fifteen plus years are front ended with Sigma-Delta modulators. They convert an analog signal to usually four to six parallel channels of Pulse Density Modulation bit(s) streams, that are (in the highest grade A/D converters) outputted as a single DSD bitstream, or converted to PCM through the previously mentioned lossy decimation filtering and interpolation converter within the A/D box.

For those who prefer the PCM sound, wonderful! But do understand it is a reduced detail replication of the original PDM A/D conversion.

Tom
Old 2 weeks ago
  #285
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string6theory's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sounds Great View Post
...

The very first DAC's 'spec'd better than what the human ear can hear. So how can it be that subsequent generations sound "A LOT better"? Please explain.

And what do you "recall" of SACD tech, and what about that tech makes PCM sound "WAY" better than DSD?

You didn't hear? DSD with its dynamic range isn't capable of recording music. It's PCM or nothing and every year the perfect PCM processes just keep getting, er, perfecter!
Old 2 weeks ago
  #286
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string6theory's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by tailspn View Post
I hate to interrupt, but what many people don't understand is we listen to DSD/PDM (Pulse Density Modulation) either natively, or converted to PCM through decimation filtering and interpolation all the time. All available A/D converters today, and for the past fifteen plus years are front ended with Sigma-Delta modulators. They convert an analog signal to usually four to six parallel channels of Pulse Density Modulation bit(s) streams, that are (in the highest grade A/D converters) outputted as a single DSD bitstream, or converted to PCM through the previously mentioned lossy decimation filtering and interpolation converter within the A/D box.

For those who prefer the PCM sound, wonderful! But do understand it is a reduced detail replication of the original PDM A/D conversion.

Tom

Exactly...

And, I completely fail to grasp the utter necessity of HAVING to filter out through decimation, etc, what was originally captured.

Yes, human hearing range, bat hearing range and all that. But, it's not NECESSARY - as DSD shows. And, by NOT decimating, we are left with a VERY natural-sounding, highly detailed output without ANY discernibly audible side affects, because the additional decimation processing was avoided.



And, BTW, just think for a moment about the word DECIMATION.

de·ci·ma·tion
/ˌdesəˈmāSH(ə)n/
Learn to pronounce
noun
noun: decimation; plural noun: decimations

1.
the killing or destruction of a large proportion of a group or species.
"our growing hunger for fish has resulted in the decimation of fish stocks"

2.
HISTORICAL
the killing of one in every ten of a group of people as a punishment for the whole group (originally with reference to a mutinous Roman legion).





Of course, different context, but still... that WORD!

Who wants their audio DECIMATED automatically, as a matter of course, raise their hand!?
Old 2 weeks ago
  #287
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IanBSC's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yannick View Post
We are now three generations later in dac technology, and the most recent ones sound A LOT better. In my book, that is a lot better than what I recall of sacd tech.
IMO on the consumer side of DACs one of the biggest improvements is the use of PCM to DSD upsampling designs.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #289
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
A nice puff piece from a guy trying to promote his A/D and D/A converters. Which incidentally, contain PDM Sigma-Delta converter elements at both ends.

His logic falls apart when he tries to assert that DSD, the 1-bit variant of PDM (Pulse Density Modulation) is actually PCM. First and foremost, PCM is a digital VALUE based system, composed of 2's compliment binary words packaged in samples, like frames in movie film, at some repetition rate. PDM/DSD is a modulated bit clock bitstream(s) of 1's and 0's who's population or density expressed over time is in percentage of modulation. That percentage, both in the positive (1's) and negative (0's) direction is proportional to the modulating audio signal level, with the specification that 50% modulation equals 0dB. There's no digital VALUE represented.

To add further to the confusion, PCM (Pulse Code Modulation), unlike PDM (Pulse Density Modulation) is misnamed. There are no pulses in PCM, and certainly no modulation of anything. It's a series/stream of 2's compliment, X bit wide binary words of measured values of the audio signal at points in time.

The rest of the article is a nice historical trip bearing little resemblance to today's DSD256 recording, with the exception of the article's Production Methods section. They, unfortunitly, are mostly still true today with the exception of labels doing direct to DSD production and editing. While creating computer processable digital values from a PDM/DSD bitstream at bit rate exists today without resorting to PCM conversion, for financial investment reasons alone, they have not yet been implemented into a full post processing suite of functions. Currently, Pyramix v13 supports direct DSD level changes with DSD channel mixing in the hopefully near future (largely motivated by the requirement of DSD mixing in Anubis).

Stay tuned

Tom

Last edited by tailspn; 2 weeks ago at 02:54 AM..
Old 2 weeks ago
  #290
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string6theory's Avatar
I think that Benchmark article from John S. (I didn't even click the link, I've seen it posted ad nauseam here) gets taken WAY out of context.

The INTERVIEWER is steering him with THEIR HD PCM Download preference baked-in-agenda questions.

He, John, is actually fine with DSD, and Benchmark has supported DSD over USB (so-called DoP) since inception and, though I haven't looked recently, I recall some of their interfaces support at least DSD playback and suspect they still do.

So, if one has a large collection of DSD recordings, as I do, all one needs to do is setup their computer with the proper USB driver so DSD up to FS128 can be played back natively, just like playing a song from iTunes.

The Grace Design interfaces are similarly supporting DSD over USB, like the M920 and M905 flagship. Obviously, many others.

But, these two companies, in particular, CROSS the so-called pro audio and audiophile markets (the latter which is typically only associated with DSD music playback for wealthy music aficionados via DSD DACS).

I use my pro audio rigs as my "audiophile" listening rigs. I suspect many others do the same, unless lounging in their TV room with surround, or in my case a 2.1 Yamaha/Klipsch rig that also sounds great for music listening.


But, when it comes to DSD recording, I suspect many have developed not only a fear of it, but and aversion to it, because PCM is so ubiquitously well-established in multiple million, billion and even trillion dollar global industries, of which pro audio falls way, waaaaaaaaaaaaaay back on the left side of that sentence.

It's actually very easy... recording with DSD... in some ways EASIER to record into a stand-alone unit than a computer with dongles. Press record to arm and play to record. I know of no other way to get ideas down so quickly and sounding so damn good... let alone when carefully mixing into it via analog faders, or dubbing a couple/few times between a pair of recorders... with much better sonic "fidelity" than dubbing between even the best analogue tape machines of the the day (subjective coloration preferences aside), that's a DSD fact. So much great music made just this way, using the best dubbing tools of the day, even whilst limited multi-track recording was available.


There's also this oft-repeated legacy of Sony, SACD, patents, copyrighting and copy-protecting digital music distribution, just look where the DECIMATED (there's that word again!) music industry is today without these BASIC of legal rights, which today is all like ancient history, but is part of that continuing argument against using DSD. If I've heard it once, I've heard it a hundred times here on Gearslutz.

It goes without saying that, from the detractor's perspective, PCM was better ever since PCM existed, thus even MORE so today, as ALL the sales and marketing money is focused on PCM, including computers, DAW's, s/w, plug-ins, online streaming, iTunes, etc, etc... and DSD is the niche of NICHE. Not to mention the sample theorem evangelists that see DSD as the spawn of the devil , I exaggerate not!


I guess my point is, I think one's perception changes after really working with DSD and careful listening. When it's not about what is the most convenient, easy, accessible and cost-effective given running a business based on an industry that is almost entirely PCM-based.

The more I use both DSD and PCM, the more I prefer DSD for the most naturally accurate and detailed SONICS, and PCM for the incredible EDITING flexibility. So, when I don't NEED to edit, I choose NOT to DECIMATE. And, then, it's basically like recording in the days of analog, but so much quicker, easier and I would contend, better sounding overall - even for what is usually associated with tape... ROCK n ROLL... of the FUTURE!
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