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HOW TO : audio treatment for Jazz concerts live broadcast/webcast (from a stereo microphone)
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
this is whishful thinking/on the contrary: with a pa, you're vastly changing things in terms of levels between instruments (some need more amplification than others), between direct, reflected and diffuse sound, in terms of dynamics and the interplay between musicians plus you cannot escape the idiosyncrasies of the pa, its alignment and behaviour inside the venue - short: you'll be dealing with additional issues...
Done this for years... Roomy sound, loud/talkative audience, drunk people on the bar on the right/left, toilet doors slamming when opening/closing in between songs... My point was, with a PA the voice level is dealt.

Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
files which are low-ish in level mostly don't cause problems: it's the overcompressed, oversaturated, clipped files which are problematic!
Overcompressed sounds will be leveled down by the service to match the -14LUFS (or other marks). So you'll hear on overcompressed signal if your master sit at -10LUFS.
But if your master sit at -26LUFS, to make it match the -14LUFS mark the service will apply a limiter you don't know of. Result? No control.


Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
those i know (including me) would NOT use this setup unless they'de be forced to do so!
post some pics of the venue: maybe some damping (absorbers, diffusors, gobos, curtains etc.) could help to mitigate some of the worst issues which come with such a setup and somewhat inexperienced personel...
This is not related to a single venue. So I can't publish any pictures.

Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
besides: if musician are telling the 'engineer' what approach/technique to use, mostl likely there's a problem in terms of experience, communication and a few more topics...
Musicians dont tell me what to do. We ALL agreed not to go for multitrack, and go for simplicity... A single stereo microphone.


Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
p.s. are you getting paid for this?
Ahhhh... I've been waiting for this one. I was only asking for people who already done what I am challenged to, to share their experience about.
And then comes the money subject.

Should I get paid to record a concert/performance on a stereo microphone? How much?
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #32
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by _barnee View Post
Done this for years... Roomy sound, loud/talkative audience, drunk people on the bar on the right/left, toilet doors slamming when opening/closing in between songs... My point was, with a PA the voice level is dealt.
how comes that you don't appear to be very knowleadgeable on the topic then?! - a pa maybe solves one issue (level of vocals) but creates a bunch of new issues...

Quote:
Overcompressed sounds will be leveled down by the service to match the -14LUFS (or other marks). So you'll hear on overcompressed signal if your master sit at -10LUFS.
But if your master sit at -26LUFS, to make it match the -14LUFS mark the service will apply a limiter you don't know of. Result? No control.
rubbish: a good mix will survive processing, pretty much regardless of its level while a squashed mix will become even worse...

Quote:
This is not related to a single venue. So I can't publish any pictures.
aha, one size fits all...

Quote:
Musicians dont tell me what to do. We ALL agreed not to go for multitrack, and go for simplicity... A single stereo microphone.
are you living in a bubble or is it confirmation bias?

Quote:
Ahhhh... I've been waiting for this one (...)
And then comes the money subject.
Should I get paid to record a concert/performance on a stereo microphone? How much?
money is relevant in the sense that it is a means to measure the value of a service but if none of you can afford to use a setup adapted to each situation, I can understand you voted for the most simplistic approach which then hopefully doesn't cost anything...

Quote:
I was only asking for people who already done what I am challenged to, to share their experience about.
well, i did and i'll gladly repeat my point: don't go there (to use but a stereo mic)!

___


anyway, looks like we disagree on every topic - bye!
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #33
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
how comes that you don't appear to be very knowleadgeable on the topic then?! - a pa maybe solves one issue (level of vocals) but creates a bunch of new issues...


rubbish: a good mix will survive processing, pretty much regardless of its level while a squashed mix will become even worse...


aha, one size fits all...


are you living in a bubble or is it confirmation bias?

money is relevant in the sense that it is a means to measure the value of a service but if none of you can afford to use a setup adapted to each situation, I can understand you voted for the most simplistic approach which then hopefully doesn't cost anything...

well, i did and i'll gladly repeat my point: don't go there (use but a stereo mic)!

___


anyway, looks like we disagree on every topic - bye!
Since you dont have any respect to the topic or to myself, bye.

Last edited by _barnee; 4 weeks ago at 08:55 PM..
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #34
Gear Addict
There is maybe a misunderstanding here: I AM NOT AFTER A SOLUTION TO GET A PERFECT MIX from a stereo microphone recording.

I perfectly know that if the balance is not good all throughout the recording, well there is not much I can do about... I AM AWARE OF THAT.

But this is not the point here. My recordings are pretty balanced on 90%, 10% problems come from loud parts of any of those instruments that kill the balance BUT ALSO those parts made the listening experience difficult.

So... The solution is to get the low parts levelled up, and on the loud parts/unbalanced parts there will be - OBVIOUSLY - some COMPROMISE. The purpose is to have a listenable recording in a way it can be webcast/podcast.

From the last result I had, I can say it can be done.
The recording had some double bass solo, at very low level compared to the average level of the show's recording. And there was some jump in level due to some drums parts. The file I output recently is squashed, but the concert is enjoyable from A to Z, I dont have to crank up the volume during the low parts, and get ready to bring the level back when some drums are very loud.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #35
Fixing it when you can't mix

Sometimes a stereo pair is all the client will pay for, but they rarely understand (up front) the compromises that entails. They end up paying me more on the back end to salvage things. There are two tools that I find useful in post-facto sow's ear stitching:

1) A dynamic equalizer. This is a life-saver when the backline gets out of control. My friend Duane Wise makes a nice one, DynPEQ. I'm embarrassed to say that I actually use a different one, Melda's MDynamicEq, because Duane's product wasn't initially available on my platform. There are others as well.

2) DDMF's Directional EQ. This is a generalization of the M/S processing option found in many mastering EQ's. The latter work great when you're trying to equalized a centered lead vocal without ruining the rest of the mix, but what do you do when that vocal isn't centered? This unassuming little plugin is the answer for that and other annoying problems that can be localized to a particular place in the sound stage. There's not much else like it.

Neither of these are "set and forget" tools; You're going to end up tweaking them for each individual song. You'll spend a lot of time in post, and hopefully you'll get paid for it. Then you can explain to the client how much money they'll save doing a multitrack capture of the next event.

David L. Rick
Seventh String Recording
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #36
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Rick View Post
Sometimes a stereo pair is all the client will pay for, but they rarely understand (up front) the compromises that entails. They end up paying me more on the back end to salvage things. There are two tools that I find useful in post-facto sow's ear stitching:

1) A dynamic equalizer. This is a life-saver when the backline gets out of control. My friend Duane Wise makes a nice one, DynPEQ. I'm embarrassed to say that I actually use a different one, Melda's MDynamicEq, because Duane's product wasn't initially available on my platform. There are others as well.

2) DDMF's Directional EQ. This is a generalization of the M/S processing option found in many mastering EQ's. The latter work great when you're trying to equalized a centered lead vocal without ruining the rest of the mix, but what do you do when that vocal isn't centered? This unassuming little plugin is the answer for that and other annoying problems that can be localized to a particular place in the sound stage. There's not much else like it.

Neither of these are "set and forget" tools; You're going to end up tweaking them for each individual song. You'll spend a lot of time in post, and hopefully you'll get paid for it. Then you can explain to the client how much money they'll save doing a multitrack capture of the next event.

David L. Rick
Seventh String Recording
Thanks David.

This is too much post-production work in my opinion. Changing EQ from track to track is a hell I dont want to go in.
I'd rather see EQ as a sound shaper/fixer for the whole recording. From my experience, less is more.

About doing multitrack... Can we now state once for all that me and the bands are aware of multitrack vs stereo, and we choose stereo and we'll stick to that?
Bands and I are also aware of the compromise of a stereo microphone solution.
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #37
Gear Addict
An example of the EQ madness I have experienced on last productions:

On a recording, I've found some of the highs of the cymbals were aggressive on some songs. Not the whole songs, only few parts/hits. I first tried to fix that in the 10Khz/14Khz area.

First I was happy with the result... but soon I realised it sucked life from other instruments. I ended up applying just few dbs so it doesn't ruin the overall sound, and even if it doesn't fix the highs completely, it reduces the problem a bit.

Compromise.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #38
Gear Addict
 

You didn’t come here for help, because there is no answer to “how to do this with a stereo pair.” A stereo pair will capture what it sounds like where you’ve placed the mics in the room. If you want intelligibility, dynamics, separation, clarity, whatever, it had better sound like that in the room. I bet it doesn’t! None of us can tell you where to place the damn thing let alone how to process it after the fact so it sounds how you want it to sound.

Jazz groups don’t really know how to self balance anymore. Even if they play acoustic instruments, they don’t really play "acoustic music” in the sense that they did 75 years ago....

Put the mic up and you’re going to get what you’re going to get. When you process you can use broad strokes to bring up or down certain frequency ranges and you can use slow, gentle compression to narrow the dynamic range. That’s the most any of us can tell you except that you should be doing a multichannel recording. A small field mixer and a handful of lavs to spot certain instruments is a good idea. Blend in the spots with the main mic on location and just record a stereo capture. No more mic stands to carry and you’ll have a little more control. And Sony ecm50’s are super cheap now.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #39
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jimjazzdad's Avatar
Sounds to me like _barnee would have found a spot at Grateful Dead concert ideal for his style of live recording...perhaps he will find more sympathy and support over on the Taperssection forum...his definition of 'live location recording' is different that most of the folks here.
Old 6 days ago | Show parent
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NathanBarley View Post
You didn’t come here for help, because there is no answer to “how to do this with a stereo pair.” A stereo pair will capture what it sounds like where you’ve placed the mics in the room. If you want intelligibility, dynamics, separation, clarity, whatever, it had better sound like that in the room. I bet it doesn’t! None of us can tell you where to place the damn thing let alone how to process it after the fact so it sounds how you want it to sound.
Not what I asked. Not what I expected either.
Read the thread again, and you'll find that I'm after technique to produce the sound once you has such recording. Usual problems and their fixes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NathanBarley View Post
Jazz groups don’t really know how to self balance anymore. Even if they play acoustic instruments, they don’t really play "acoustic music” in the sense that they did 75 years ago....
Probably right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NathanBarley View Post
Put the mic up and you’re going to get what you’re going to get. When you process you can use broad strokes to bring up or down certain frequency ranges and you can use slow, gentle compression to narrow the dynamic range. That’s the most any of us can tell you except that you should be doing a multichannel recording. A small field mixer and a handful of lavs to spot certain instruments is a good idea. Blend in the spots with the main mic on location and just record a stereo capture. No more mic stands to carry and you’ll have a little more control. And Sony ecm50’s are super cheap now.
Will have a look a this. Thanks! But I then need a multitrack recorder as I dont plan to record close mics with a distant mic on a stereo device. Because of phase issues.

As for the compression technique, yep... this is what I already do. But I chain 2 to 3 compressors and use parallel compression by splitting the band to compress differently the low range and the rest. I have made a template and tried it on other jazz recordings. Of course, I have to adapt things but the process works, and it saves time and energy.
I see it as a "good starting point template" rather than a "good for all situation template".
Old 6 days ago | Show parent
  #41
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimjazzdad View Post
Sounds to me like _barnee would have found a spot at Grateful Dead concert ideal for his style of live recording...perhaps he will find more sympathy and support over on the Taperssection forum...his definition of 'live location recording' is different that most of the folks here.
Well... Definitely not what I'm doing... Excepted the stereo capture.
My stand is onstage, mostly taping acoustic instruments. But I see what you think as most people here only mantra are doing multitrack stuffs.

Not sure to find answer on Taperssection. Folks there are more focus on the recording rigs thing than sound production. But I already experienced this forum and they are quite sympathetic, indeed.

Old 6 days ago | Show parent
  #42
Gear Addict
Today I've been told by one of the band I've recorded that they had perform a short set filmed and published on the web on a famous regional newspaper website. I was intrigued by the sound of it, not knowing if it was a multitrack or stereo capture.

I've found the video. Sound comes a single microphone capture. And I don't even know if it is from a stereo one... My guess is it comes from a mono mic.
Very badly placed as the sound is thin and very distant, roomy. It doesn't fit with the multi-camera video.

I've compared with the sound of my production, and I'm quite happy that mine sounds better.

I'm just surprised the sound of the multi-camera shot done by 3 guys, is not so good. I was expecting to hear something quite professional.

Anyway... It looks I'm after perfecting things, some other people just dont give a ****. Haha.
Old 6 days ago | Show parent
  #43
Here for the gear
 

This thread is worth it for finding out about DDMF's Directional EQ alone! Thank you David - I am on my way to pick that up today.

_barnee the situation you are in with the stereo mic is very similar to that in which a lot of us find ourselves when we plonk a stereo field recorder down in front of the stage or on it just before our set.

I play a lot of high dynamic range music (I should put that on my CV!), both solo or with others. My recording constraint is that if I am dragging a guitar and other gear along to a show, loading in, warming up and calming my nerves, then I am not going to be thinking tooooo hard about recording or bringing a mixer and a bag of cables and box of mics along. I just don't have the time, and I certainly do not have the mental energy or space in this context. So a little Zoom does the heavy lifting as it does for many others I see.

Given this constraint (as opposed to justifying it or sidestepping it), optimising clarity, separation, and balance along with the natural groove of the moment is something of a challenge, even with all of the time in the world for post-production.

I am seeing an increasing prevalence of live-streamed shows right now on account of the lockdowns and venue caps and so on, so my guess is that we are only going to see more demand for the nimble set-capturing of the sort that you are working with now _barnee. Please do report back on what you find to work and what you find to not : )
Old 3 days ago | Show parent
  #44
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by seby View Post
This thread is worth it for finding out about DDMF's Directional EQ alone! Thank you David - I am on my way to pick that up today.

_barnee the situation you are in with the stereo mic is very similar to that in which a lot of us find ourselves when we plonk a stereo field recorder down in front of the stage or on it just before our set.

I play a lot of high dynamic range music (I should put that on my CV!), both solo or with others. My recording constraint is that if I am dragging a guitar and other gear along to a show, loading in, warming up and calming my nerves, then I am not going to be thinking tooooo hard about recording or bringing a mixer and a bag of cables and box of mics along. I just don't have the time, and I certainly do not have the mental energy or space in this context. So a little Zoom does the heavy lifting as it does for many others I see.

Given this constraint (as opposed to justifying it or sidestepping it), optimising clarity, separation, and balance along with the natural groove of the moment is something of a challenge, even with all of the time in the world for post-production.

I am seeing an increasing prevalence of live-streamed shows right now on account of the lockdowns and venue caps and so on, so my guess is that we are only going to see more demand for the nimble set-capturing of the sort that you are working with now _barnee. Please do report back on what you find to work and what you find to not : )
Thank you Seby!

As for now, and seeing my workflow and time spent on post-production, this is impossible to do for live streaming. It requires analysis, tweaking.
If I was about to live stream such high dynamic concerts, maybe hardware is the way to go... I really dont know. I'd go for a multiband compression though. 2 bands, Low (below 200Hz/300Hz) and the rest. And I'd place this as a parallel compressor. Then I'd feed 2 to 3 compressors and a limiter. An EQ early in the chain to remove boxiness and some other things. And an EQ before the limiter to cut below 30Hz-40Hz, and higher than 15Khz/16Khz.

The video guys I've posted earlier seems to dont care that much about sound. I suspect a 80/100Hz low cut and a limiter. Probably done on one of the video camera. I'll have to extract the audio from the video to check.

Last edited by _barnee; 3 days ago at 11:32 PM..
Old 3 days ago | Show parent
  #45
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by _barnee View Post
The video guys I've posted earlier seems to dont care that much about sound. I suspect a 80/100Hz low cut and a limiter. Probably done on one of the video camera. I'll have to extract the audio from the video to check.
Tell me about it!

But seriously I would hate to be trying this in realtime. Bravo for even grappling with it at all.

This is a newish constraint audiopath-output wise, but it is a booming one. I would not be surprised to see some kind of integrated "solution" for it from a developer soon. I can even see the promo vid, shot in 8K, with fairy lights, in a loft venue with bare brick walls and beams, closeup of the streamer with oversized headphones getting everything that they need out of one tiny adorable bag, people around the world dancing in their homes....

I am trying to come across as all aloof here, but I would but it in a flash!
Old 3 days ago | Show parent
  #46
Gear Addict
Just analyzed the audio from the video I posted about earlier.

OK, It looks a low cut has been applied. 80Hz to 100Hz. A brickwall is applied to 16Khz (which appears to be some kind fo a norm in video as I have analyzed some pro shot for TV who do the same). Lo-Mid freq is a bit poor, maybe the result of the low cut.
Sound is very distant. Thin.
This is stereo. But with very narrow image.
Peaks are extremely squashed. Sound is very distorted at times.
The quiet song of the set seems to be very quiet... Obviously, no compressor here.
-13LUFS, with peaks at 0dbFS... and true peaks at +1dbFS(!!!!). A clue that the guys who made this video shot dont care much about sound. Maybe the sign of use of an automated plugin that set their output to -13LUFS with no regard to anything else (true peak value for instance).

Compared to the sound I've managed to get from my setup, my sound has more body, clarity, presence (my mic was definitely closer than theirs). Low mid are richer. Still not perfect though, but a decent compromise.

Last edited by _barnee; 2 days ago at 11:57 PM..
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