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Spot Mics for Plexiglass cages
Old 4 weeks ago
  #1
Spot Mics for Plexiglass cages

Hi Everyone,

I've got a woodwind quintet tomorrow- Audio for Video. The Quintet will be individually shielded on three sides (no back, or top).

We've all been talking about spotting everything, but how exactly are you spotting creatures such as these? Right now I'm thinking Dpa 4060s on BLM discs on the inside of the plexiglass.. but is that a real solution? what else would you do? [side note- Horn will be with a ribbon from the rear; I only have 4 of the dpas]

I hope you all are staying well, and thanks for any ideas!
Old 4 weeks ago
  #2
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i'd use cardioids on large boom stands with mics looking down into the cages - or then blm's (on the floor) but they might pick up too many reflections from the plexi...
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #3
Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
i'd use cardioids on large boom stands with mics looking down into the cages - or then blm's (on the floor) but they might pick up too many reflections from the plexi...
Thanks for answering Deedeeyeah,

Any way I look at it, the Plexi will be giving me reflections- both using a card on the top, or a BLM on the bottom- My instinct is to go for a side shield placement (which has the same reflection problem) to avoid foot noise and to get more signal by being closer to the instrument. Why would you choose a BLM on the floor? [For video purposes, Card on the top seems like a hard sell]

Cheers!
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VillageOp View Post
Thanks for answering Deedeeyeah,

Any way I look at it, the Plexi will be giving me reflections- both using a card on the top, or a BLM on the bottom- My instinct is to go for a side shield placement (which has the same reflection problem) to avoid foot noise and to get more signal by being closer to the instrument. Why would you choose a BLM on the floor? [For video purposes, Card on the top seems like a hard sell]

Cheers!
ime blm's/pzm's sound rather poor if the boundary isn't large and hard as can get experienced when putting a blm on a small, soft surface/lift it off the floor (you'd create a hpf)...

reasons for cards from above is that you then at least can avoid reflections from one plexi - but of course you could also use cardioid mics as pzm's!
Old 4 weeks ago
  #5
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hbphotoav's Avatar
 

I'd be real tempted to test a 4099 (hypercard) clipped onto the top of each center Plexi panel, looking "down" at the player(s). It may be a bit too distant, so a position over the music stand might be preferable.

I regularly use 4099s on choral setups (reinforcement, and a mix for the archive) and fashioned thin booms of 1/8" threaded rod, 36"/1m long, covered in black shrink tubing, and mounted in 3/4" dowel (painted flat black) secured in a Shure mic clip on a stand) and gaffing the 4099 booms to the end. They pretty well disappear at distance, compared to "standard" booms.

The photo is from 2015... early in the process... the DPAs are gaffed to the end of the teacher's Audix long/thin "choir" booms (hence, the mini connector, not used). I used the Audix elements on the previous concert, and was not impressed. DPAs were better enough that I ordered four.

Good luck. Let us know how you get on!

HB
Attached Thumbnails
Spot Mics for Plexiglass cages-img_5295.jpg  
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #6
Quote:
Originally Posted by hbphotoav View Post
I'd be real tempted to test a 4099 (hypercard) clipped onto the top of each center Plexi panel, looking "down" at the player(s). It may be a bit too distant, so a position over the music stand might be preferable.
[...]
Good luck. Let us know how you get on!

HB
Thanks Harry, I too would be tempted. you in Philly and want to lend them?

Quote:
ime blm's/pzm's sound rather poor if the boundary isn't large and hard as can get experienced when putting a blm on a small, soft surface/lift it off the floor (you'd create a hpf)...
I'd say the shields are 1m by 1.5m or so, on each side. How large is large? I'm still putting up mains which should get me all the bass (and air con) I might need...
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #7
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hbphotoav's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by VillageOp View Post
Thanks Harry, I too would be tempted. you in Philly and want to lend them?
I'm in NashVegas... but there's likely a rental facility in Philly where you could rent a couple for a test... Good luck!

H
Old 4 weeks ago
  #8
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I agree with hypercardiods, or maybe even fig 8โ€™s which would give even better side(reflection) rejection.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #9
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Join the plexis at their edges to make a 90 degree pair of plane surfaces (sounds like they already are !), then gaffa tape a cardioid or omni SD mic (or BLM) into the corner created by the 2 shields. So a single mic (one corner) for each player, plus your horn spot

The Crown PZM guide will give you some ideas....see attached doc, esp p.13 onwards.

Some simple shelving eq will correct for any bass buildup or loss, the maths is simple and explained in the booklet.....you'll get free gain via the corner mounting (6dB per right angle boundary). Corners are your friend....they cancel out adjacent panel reflections.

What is the quintet being screened away from...each other, presumably ?
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Crown PZM guide.pdf (1.42 MB, 4 views)
Old 4 weeks ago
  #10
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Yannick's Avatar
 

Fig8 all the way.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #11
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fred2bern's Avatar
 

I don't change what I normally do.
The open Tupperware is not a big problem to manage.

I did another symphonic prod sooner and had to manage a plexiglass wall (1m60 high) between the winds and the strings, much more a problem in the Decca...

Fred
Attached Thumbnails
Spot Mics for Plexiglass cages-20200922_185223.jpg   Spot Mics for Plexiglass cages-20200922_185254.jpg  
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fred2bern View Post
I don't change what I normally do.
The open Tupperware is not a big problem to manage.

I did another symphonic prod sooner and had to manage a plexiglass wall (1m60 high) between the winds and the strings, much more a problem in the Decca...

Fred
i guess the main differences...

Quote:
The Quintet will be individually shielded on three sides (no back, or top)
...are the size of the ensemble, plexi also also being in front of the musicians and possibly the main mic system (if there is any?).

regarding the latter: on a recent project which needed plexi between musicians, i could fly my main system (soundfield) much higher than usual but used its steering capability and added some artificial early reflections so in the end i did not experience much of a difference.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #13
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fred2bern's Avatar
 

I'm bored with people who gives advices behind their computers in pyjamas...

It's not the case? OK pictures!!!! please pictures...
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #14
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having a bad day or are you such an arrogant dude?!

here's a pic taken during setup for the 'basel sinfonietta' before plexi walls were brought in, ca. two hours before rehearsals started in their newly renovated rehearsal space ('don bosco').

rehearsals on this day required but some playback getting fed to the soloist and the conductor who also got a click track (you can see the headphones on the music stand) so no mics in da house yet; the soundfield was flown from the front truss (not pictured) the next day.

recording (for broadcast) took place three days later, in an entirely different venue and under different conditions, except for the soundfield mic (as one of two main mic systems).

nevermind, i will of course beware of ever again annoying your majesty with trivialities...
Attached Thumbnails
Spot Mics for Plexiglass cages-20200917_165029.jpg  
Old 4 weeks ago
  #15
Well, after all the sound and the fury, it turned out to not be a huge deal. The shields were smaller than my rehearsal pictures showed, they did not impede the main pair (mk21) and I used conventional spot mics because the blm had no good space to live out of camera.
Attached Thumbnails
Spot Mics for Plexiglass cages-img_20201021_182229.jpg  
Old 4 weeks ago
  #16
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I do question the efficacy of those shields...what were they intended to do (or prevent)...apart from generate a very effective speakerless foldback field for the player enclosed within it ?

Looks like more of a bureaucratic health-illusion/comforter to all intents and purposes...woodwind aerosols are more likely to be propagated vertically than forward...I wonder if this is a WHO mandated measure ?

Last edited by studer58; 4 weeks ago at 04:15 PM..
Old 4 weeks ago
  #17
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Plush's Avatar
Just use a stereo pair or 3 across the front. There is nothing special about having baffles. If you go a little higher than usual, all will be picked up in full fidelity.

The woodwind sound still carries almost the same as if the baffles were not there.

I don't understand the manufactured problem.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #18
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Those shorter shields will do something to protect the players but not a huge amount--I think they may be more useful as theatre to allow the org to claim they are doing appropriate covid mitigation. Players are taking a real risk by spending a lot of time in these situations. Everyone really wants to work now, so they will, but the virus doesn't care. The shields are an issue re: microphones but not an insurmountable one so far: I wish they weren't there but I'd rather work WITH them than not work. The camera and lighting folks really have their work cut out for them with all those extra reflective surfaces: I think they have a much worse situation than we do.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #19
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For all the complaints from video people about mic stands, polycarbonate shields would seem a major pain. Some of the public offices around here are using PVC curtain instead of rigid polycarbonate.
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #20
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2manyrocks View Post
For all the complaints from video people about mic stands, polycarbonate shields would seem a major pain. Some of the public offices around here are using PVC curtain instead of rigid polycarbonate.

Yes the video crew worked with the operations department to clean all the spots and fingerprints before the show. Even then, they had to shoot over the top of them to get faces.
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