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Best way to live stream a recital?
Old 14th August 2020
  #1
Best way to live stream a recital?

I have a gig next month to do a live stream recital of flute and piano. I have only used an iPhone for live streaming before, which was easy but completely inadequate for actual music.
I have a lumix gx85 cam for the video aspect but i am uncertain what software and connections to use to sync video to the audio output of my recording system and get it onto Facebook for streaming.
If you have some experience with this, please give me some guidance/advice on how to best do this. Thanks.
Old 14th August 2020
  #2
Lives for gear
The least inexpensive way to input video is this or one like it:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/HDMI-to-USB...72.m2749.l2649

I think it's limited to 1080p, but that's enough for most people.

plus a HDMI mini to HDMI cable of the appropriate length assuming your GX85 has a HDMI mini port. You will want to set your GX85 to output clean HDMI in the menu.

And OBS (freeware): https://obsproject.com/

Plus whatever audio capture you're going to feed into your computer.

OBS allows you to delay the audio signal to match the video feed. You will have to experiment to find the correct amount of audio delay.

Your computer needs to be powerful enough to handle video and streaming at the same time or things will go badly.

You will also need suitable internet connection speed. I'd prefer wired ethernet over wireless. If someone else is providing the internet connection, you may want to cover yourself with your client if the internet speed is just not in your control.

Practice recording with OBS before you try it live. There are some good tutorials on YT.
Old 14th August 2020
  #3
Gear Head
 

I can tell you how I would do this:

I would use Zoom and stream it to Facebook. I would do it this way because I know that Zoom makes it pretty easy to switch your video to an external camera/webcam and switch your audio to an external audio interface. I haven't tried Facebook streaming, so maybe there's an easier way by going directly through that instead of sending Zoom to Facebook.

-Create a Zoom meeting on your computer.

-In the Zoom application, go into preferences.

-In the preferences->video menu, you can select any camera that is capable of streaming/that the laptop can see. (Aside: essentially, you want to use your camera as a webcam. Panasonic has literature on this -- You may need to buy a USB tether for it to make it work).

-In the preferences->audio menu, select your USB audio interface as the audio input.

OK, now Zoom is using your video camera for video and your mic's for audio.

The next step is to broadcast the zoom meeting to stream on Facebook:
https://support.zoom.us/hc/en-us/art...-Facebook-Live


Zoom will turn your audio into something mono and optimized (read: you'll lose a bit), but in my experience it sounds fine for live streaming and is better than alternatives I have used.
Old 14th August 2020
  #4
Thanks guys. A couple of follow-up questions
1. I want to make sure that the software does not employ AGC on the audio - that really screws up live music. Is there a way to turn Off the AGC ?
2. How do you archive a copy of the recital while live streaming?
Old 14th August 2020
  #5
Lives for gear
OBS gives you the option of manually recording a stream or automatically recording a stream. You make this choice in the general setup menu. If you set it to automatic, then that might save you from forgetting to turn on recording.

You can also set audio gain manually.

This tutorial on using VSTs in OBS for zoom might be helpful.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipocEcMsEkY
Old 14th August 2020
  #6
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Bruce Watson's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jnorman View Post
I have a gig next month to do a live stream recital of flute and piano. I have only used an iPhone for live streaming before, which was easy but completely inadequate for actual music.
I have a lumix gx85 cam for the video aspect but i am uncertain what software and connections to use to sync video to the audio output of my recording system and get it onto Facebook for streaming.
If you have some experience with this, please give me some guidance/advice on how to best do this. Thanks.
2manyrocks is giving you a reasonable way to go.

The opposite way to go is perhaps the ATEM Mini and Mini Pro.

Just because it can handle four cameras doesn't mean you have to use that many. Just sayin'.

The Mini Pro for example lets you take the HDMI output from a camera and runs with it all the way to the Internet. If you want you can leave your computer home -- the mini Pro can even record the livestream for you.

That said, I've only ever laid my hands on a ATEM Mini (it's really nice BTW), and then not for long. I haven't used the Mini Pro because they are in very high demand still and they don't stay in stock long anywhere. Really popular, these things.

Anyway, there are many paths to the waterfall. I'm just giving you another possible path to think about.

EDIT: Oh, I forgot -- if you use either of the ATEM Minis, you don't need the video capture card for the cameras -- the ATEM Minis will take an HDMI feed directly from a camera. So it's one less thing to carry, one less thing to break. And I think you can feed your audio directly to the ATEM Mini, which might neaten up your cabling. Or not. IDK.

Last edited by Bruce Watson; 14th August 2020 at 10:57 PM.. Reason: old and forgetful
Old 15th August 2020
  #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Watson View Post
2manyrocks is giving you a reasonable way to go.

The opposite way to go is perhaps the ATEM Mini and Mini Pro.

...the ATEM Minis will take an HDMI feed directly from a camera. So it's one less thing to carry, one less thing to break. And I think you can feed your audio directly to the ATEM Mini, which might neaten up your cabling. Or not. IDK.
I just happened to do a chamber music session yesterday that employed the ATEM Mini and two cameras. We were recording for posting later, but treated it as a realtime performance. Regarding the audio, the ATEM has a pair of unbalanced 3.5 mm mic inputs. They're mini-TRS, but specs incorrectly call them 'stereo'. In any event, the thought of trying to get a clean signal to that configuration scared me, so I opted to send a pair of balanced XLR's to one of the cameras, which was equipped to handle a balanced, line level signal and deliver it over HDMI to the ATEM. Worked like a charm.
Old 16th August 2020
  #8
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jnorman View Post
Thanks guys. A couple of follow-up questions
1. I want to make sure that the software does not employ AGC on the audio - that really screws up live music. Is there a way to turn Off the AGC ?
2. How do you archive a copy of the recital while live streaming?
On Zoom this is easy -- they offer a lot of control over turning off their various audio processing like AGC, echo cancellation, background noise suppression (which ends up suppressing music), etc. Look at the top menu in Zoom -- on the left you'll see the zoom.us menu. In here go to preferences.

Select audio in the preferences panel that pops up.

Here you can select your audio interface for the input and turn off AGC

Then (don't close audio prefs yet) go to 'advanced' in the bottom right of the audio prefs

In here you can disable echo cancellation and other stuff

You'll also want to check the box so the "original sound" button will show up when you stream. You want original sound.

If you do these things, zoom will not mess up your audio. I set up some A/V for a classical voice recital today and it worked great (I used a Mixpre as my interface and could control the volume at which the other people heard my Mixpre on Zoom via my Mixpre's fader knob).

While you're at it, in the same preferences menu, click on 'video' on the left. You can now select any webcam. Today I used an Iphone 11 (which takes surprisingly nice video for livestream) with a webcam app. So video streamed over wifi/wirelessly from the Iphone to my Laptop into Zoom, and Audio went from the Mixpre through a USB cable into the laptop.

Note that Facebook streaming may have its own audio processing -- I'm less familiar with that side (if you do end up streaming Zoom to Facebook Live)
Old 16th August 2020
  #9
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Bruce Watson's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tessitura View Post
If you do these things, zoom will not mess up your audio. I set up some A/V for a classical voice recital today and it worked great (I used a Mixpre as my interface and could control the volume at which the other people heard my Mixpre on Zoom via my Mixpre's fader knob).
I'm still a little iffy on Zoom for this kind of work.

This will take a couple of paragraghs; stick with me.

My wife uses Zoom all the time, very familiar with both running meetings and being a participant. So she's well over the "surprises" phase of learning new software, and she's good with tweaking it to make it do what she wants (she used to run a successful web company, her computer skills are high to say the least).

We live near Duke University in Durham, and used to be season subscribers to the American Dance Festival that's been held at Duke every summer for who knows how long. We haven't been in a few years because for a while the programming got sort of repetitive, and the couple we used to go there with decided to drop out. Anyway, wife decided to try to support them some during the pandemic. Duke has started offering short programs (an hour more or less) over Zoom. Ah, yes, I'm finally getting to the point!

So, wife buys a "ticket" and tries one. She was less than impressed. Video quality was bad -- to the point she couldn't see the performers faces (more important in modern dance than, say, ballet). And she who isn't really a sound person, was complaining about the sound. Not that it was pumping up and down (as it might with AGC somewhere in the system), but because it just sounded bad. What I got out of her was that it sounded "like a phone call". Apparently it was tinny, unrealistic, dull, and annoying. It was apparent that both the top and bottom end had been rolled off. Altogether it seemed to me like she was describing artifacts from lots of compression as much as anything else. She did not disagree with that assessment, but again she's not really an audio person. And I did not hear it (I was off doing something else), so all I have is what she can describe.

I guess what I'm getting at is, if you decide to got the Zoom route, you might want to run a pre-event test to see if the video/audio quality is sufficient for a music event. Not just on the organizer side (where the OP will be) but on the participant side (where viewers will be). Make it a realistic test; get someone to join the Zoom call from home and make that signal travel full route from you -> Zoom -> FB -> them. See what they think. If it's good enough for what you want, great. If not, you'll have time to make a plan B.
Old 16th August 2020
  #10
The event organizers have indicated that it needs to be on Facebook since they believe the vast majority of their listeners have that application. Then I found out that Panasonic lumix tether does not support my camera (gx85), so now I am in a conundrum.
Old 17th August 2020
  #11
Lives for gear
You don't need to tether.

The GX85 should be able to output a clean hdmi signal from its mini hdmi port. Then you connect the appropriate hdmi cable to your camera and insert it into the hdmi to usb converter I linked in my first post.

The converter makes your computer think that the GX85 is just another webcam.
Old 17th August 2020
  #12
Lives for gear
This is an hdmi mini to hdmi cable in the picture below showing it attached to my GH3. Should be the same for your GX85. Look at the ports on your GX85 for an hdmi mini port.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Mini-HDMI-t...72.m2749.l2649

This is the hdmi to usb converter.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/HDMI-to-USB...72.m2749.l2649

When you connect the hdmi cable to your GX85 and use the converter to plug into your computer, the video signal from your GX85 will be available as a video source in the OSB menu.

Tethering software is not needed.
Attached Thumbnails
Best way to live stream a recital?-hdmi-converter.jpg  
Old 17th August 2020
  #13
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tourtelot's Avatar
What am I to do? I swore on the ears of my cats that I would never have anything to do with Facebook, in any manner, ever. Devil's spawn!

Guess we'd need to hire a Facebook wrangler. They can have that data stealing motherf**ker on their computer.

D.
Old 17th August 2020
  #14
Lives for gear
So...GX85 + hdmi cable + hdmi to usb converter and you should be able to input video into your computer which your computer will just see as another USB device.

In OBS, you will see screen 1 w/o any input sources. Click on the + to add your video device. That will bring up a subscreen. Click to add a video device.

The next screen, (Screen 2) will let you choose any integrated webcam or your GX85 (seen as a USB device). There are options to set up color space and frame rates here. The higher the frame rates, the more taxing on your computer. But to illustrate--just add the USB video device

Screen 3 should then show whatever video is coming out of your GX85.

Now you should have your GX85 as a usb video device showing in OBS to stream.

If you have a windows 10 laptop with a built in webcam, you can just open up OBS and get a feel for how the software operates using your built in webcam as the video device.
Attached Thumbnails
Best way to live stream a recital?-obs-1.jpg   Best way to live stream a recital?-obs-2.jpg   Best way to live stream a recital?-obs-3.jpg  
Old 17th August 2020
  #15
I'm currently setup with OBS, GX85's, and an ATEM Mini. It works well, and the GX85 will output 1080p even if recording 4K internally, though during setup it can sometimes take an unplug/replug to get it to do it correctly.

MY BIG QUESTION to those doing this frequently, is what to do to ensure a solid internet connection?

In my tests here at home, the ISP occassionally seems to throttle me after a period of time. I can get around this by running at 720p and/or a lower bitrate, but it still makes me nervous to rely on ISP's if this is a potential issue.

Has anyone had success with any mobile 4G options, and what is available and working well for you?

Are there other alternatives that I'm not aware of?

Would love to hear more about this, thanks!
Old 18th August 2020
  #16
Lives for gear
Why did you have to go and ask a hard question? https://restream.io/blog/what-is-a-g...for-streaming/

Have you run a test to see what kind of upload speed you are getting?
Old 18th August 2020
  #17
2MR - I have a strong connection running at around 600+mbs upload. I talked the guy into letting me use YouTube instead of FB, so a small victory there. After doing a bunch of reading, I really cannot see any benefit to doing a live stream vs live streaming a pre-recorded video, so I am going to do the recording, sync to the video, and render, and then I will use OBS to stream it to YouTube. Lots of upsides, and no downside that I see.
Old 18th August 2020
  #18
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Infinitely safer to pre-record and upload later, IMO.
Old 18th August 2020
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jnorman View Post
2MR - I have a strong connection running at around 600+mbs upload. I talked the guy into letting me use YouTube instead of FB, so a small victory there. After doing a bunch of reading, I really cannot see any benefit to doing a live stream vs live streaming a pre-recorded video, so I am going to do the recording, sync to the video, and render, and then I will use OBS to stream it to YouTube. Lots of upsides, and no downside that I see.
Yes, plenty of upsides...in terms of you being able to edit out all the stuff you wouldn't be able to, if it were live...you can even substitute that much better '2nd take' ...after the flubbed end note rules out the 1st one !

I'm not sure you even need OBS, just upload directly to YouTube via your or his account. YT seems to do lots of auto-optimizations during your upload these days (or are they just compromizes ?) in terms of getting a good playback level, colour/contrast etc...but try to get a healthy playback level (-16 to -19 LUFS) and a good picture at your end, so the YT algorithms don't intrude much, if at all, on your hard work.

If wanted, you can even nominate a pre-arranged time/date for the 'broadcast' to become viewable, so you can create a sense of 'pseudo-live anticipation' in the YT audience !
Old 18th August 2020
  #20
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Bruce Watson's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jnorman View Post
...I really cannot see any benefit to doing a live stream vs live streaming a pre-recorded video, so I am going to do the recording, sync to the video, and render, and then I will use OBS to stream it to YouTube.
Either you are live streaming or you aren't. There's no "live streaming a pre-recorded video". It has to be done live to be live streaming. If it's prerecorded it's just uploading a video. So you can also skip the OBS step. Login into YT and upload your finished video. Much much easier.

Actual live streaming is really only needed for things that have to be seen in real-time (or that people really want to see in real-time). That's why it's mostly sports, and a smattering of birthdays and weddings. And of course all the "look at me" stuff that social media is made of.
Old 18th August 2020
  #21
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Watson View Post
Either you are live streaming or you aren't. There's no "live streaming a pre-recorded video". It has to be done live to be live streaming.
Yes, there's all sorts of time-shifting shenanigans that can be employed in this game....you could livestream and then not save it as a playback later on YT or Facebook, which means a large number of people will probably miss out on seeing it ..because most people miss the starting time, and catch it 30 mins into the broadcast...or not at all ! So that would be both counter-productive...and just plain mean !

Where it (true live-streaming) all seems to have devolved down to is that people watch it (or some of it) while it's being performed live...curse and swear when the internet connection drops out, go off to the bathroom or make a cup of coffee while the signal's down...come back and enjoy the last half hour, after the signal's back up again.

Then they'll return to the same YT page later that night... or in the next day or so, and watch the entire performance again, interruption and dropout-free ! Because even if the signal drops out during the live streaming, it's typically buffered and saved, and thus is preserved in totality for later playbacks anyway.
Old 18th August 2020
  #22
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2manyrocks View Post
Why did you have to go and ask a hard question? https://restream.io/blog/what-is-a-g...for-streaming/

Have you run a test to see what kind of upload speed you are getting?
I'm getting consistently around 30 up, which isn't monster but it's better than most connections i've tried.

I'm thinking, for instance, if I go to someone's apartment for a multicam performance stream and they have crap internet and/or hardware, what's the best solution to get a stable stream in that circumstance?
Old 18th August 2020
  #23
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Bruce Watson's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by king2070lplaya View Post
...if I go to someone's apartment for a multicam performance stream and they have crap internet and/or hardware, what's the best solution to get a stable stream in that circumstance?
Wireless channel bonding* probably. Wander around the Teradek website. Don't forget to bring your wallet!

* AKA cellular bonding, ethernet bonding, etc.

Last edited by Bruce Watson; 18th August 2020 at 06:20 PM..
Old 18th August 2020
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Watson View Post
Actual live streaming is really only needed for things that have to be seen in real-time (or that people really want to see in real-time). That's why it's mostly sports, and a smattering of birthdays and weddings.
Not even sure any of that needs to be live either. Its like our subscription to the DCH (we never watch it live), with time zones and a global audience nothing needs to be live anymore. A few hours delay after some judicial editing, well worth it.

Probably why appointment television has nearly died too.

Some things that probably should remain live, assignment of new pope, unfolding electoral results, moon landing, 9-11 coverage.

Last edited by David Spearritt; 18th August 2020 at 11:15 PM..
Old 18th August 2020
  #25
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tourtelot's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Watson View Post
Wireless channel bonding* probably. Wander around the Teradek website. Don't forget to bring your wallet!

* AKA cellular bonding, ethernet bonding, etc.
Would a good cellular hot-spot work?

D.
Old 19th August 2020
  #26
Lives for gear
Tentative answer is there are so many mobile plans with so many options and gotcha's that you would really have to research what service speed is actually available in your area and then painstakingly evaluate the service plan cost.

You might find you get XYZ amount of speed for the first ___ of data, and then the fine print takes over.

Seems like my local telco is always pushing a higher level plan at an additional monthly cost.
Old 19th August 2020
  #27
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Bruce Watson's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tourtelot View Post
Would a good cellular hot-spot work?
Define "good". The point of bonding is that you can join two, three, or four LTE channels together to get A) more bandwidth, and B) redundancy. The real issue seems to be redundancy -- if you loose your cellular hot-spot, what happens to your livestream?
Old 19th August 2020
  #28
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Bruce Watson's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Spearritt View Post
Not even sure any of that needs to be live either.
Tell that to a sports bookie.

Birthdays and such need to be live so that it can be a two way stream -- a video telephone call if you will. People want to be included, not just to watch from afar.

But if being included isn't a thing, and if real-time doesn't matter (no money changing hands based on the result), then yes -- makes the value of livestreaming highly questionable. Which was my original point. I hope.
Old 19th August 2020
  #29
Lives for gear
 

i can imagine a couple of occasions when one may want/have to stream in realtime - my reservation with it is that it's yet another technique i don't wanna get involved: i don't care about lights, video, album artwork etc. and i'm not gonna start streaming either!


(well, get me a codec an isdn line: i then might recall how do set up things...)
Old 20th August 2020
  #30
Lives for gear
These guys might be able to help.... https://youtu.be/X8j-c5RgGKk
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