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new RME 12 mic MADI/AVB interface
Old 17th January 2020
  #1
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new RME 12 mic MADI/AVB interface

This looks interesting:https://www.audiotechnology.com/news...ducts-from-rme
Old 17th January 2020
  #2
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It's a bit odd that they've implemented AVB/MILAN AOIP on these new devices. Kind of a strange decision, isn't it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
Old 17th January 2020
  #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bwanajim View Post
It's a bit odd that they've implemented AVB/MILAN AOIP on these new devices. Kind of a strange decision, isn't it?
Yes, but given that a couple of years ago they seemed uncertain about Dante vs AVB, maybe in 2020 they are showing their hand ?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rGJnrx...ature=emb_logo
Old 17th January 2020
  #4
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tourtelot's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
Yes, but given that a couple of years ago they seemed uncertain about Dante vs AVB, maybe in 2020 they are showing their hand ?
Only a pair of fives in that hand.

D.
Old 19th January 2020
  #5
Gear Maniac
Quote:
Originally Posted by bwanajim View Post
It's a bit odd that they've implemented AVB/MILAN AOIP on these new devices. Kind of a strange decision, isn't it?
Why, exactly?
BTW, RME made the decision some time ago. They told me in 2018 that they will go the AVB route.
Old 20th January 2020
  #6
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No Dante? Can't do it. Not my choice but I can't cover more than one ethernet format, and all the live show stuff I work on is Dante, so Dante it is.
Old 20th January 2020
  #7
I am a little surprised they don’t even have the option for Dante on these interfaces, as they already make one powerful control room Dante interface. But then, maybe they’re saving that connectivity for their next gen Micstasy-level equipment, and using AVB for the cheaper boxes.
Old 20th January 2020
  #8
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Plush's Avatar
Sadly, AVB is not working with Apple computers at higher sample rates. Standard rates only.

Most of the time it does not work with pc's as well.

I see this as an errant equipment decision made by a German technologist.

The only place I have seen AVB used is in sound reinforcement at 48KHz.
Old 20th January 2020
  #9
Gear Maniac
Well, my MOTU AVB rig DOES work flawlessly under Windows 10 via USB2.0. No dropouts while recording 32 channels live at 96khz.
Old 20th January 2020
  #10
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After speaking with them at NAMM about this, they indicated that they have more control over implementation with AVB. Simply put, AVB is an open protocol, and Dante is proprietary. The quote I remember from one of their engineers was approximately, "We need to do it right; we need to own it." To be clear, he was not bagging on Dante, just stating their preferred approach to network audio in their own product line.

The 12-Mic looked fantastic, btw. It will replace what I'm currently doing with 3 rack spaces in my rig, and then some. I also told them over and over how I love the inputs on the front.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bremusound View Post
BTW, RME made the decision some time ago. They told me in 2018 that they will go the AVB route.
I can believe this, since the engineer said he's been working on 12-Mic for two years.
Old 20th January 2020
  #11
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no doubt aoip is the future...

...but which format?!

___


in the last ca. 20 years, i've been using ethersound, cobranet, rocknet, reac, aes50, dante, ravenna, avb (at 96k: meyer galaxy into l'acoustics la-12x but these devices are currently amongst just very few items capable of doing so?) and whatnot....

at this point in time and if you only have to interface with a few pieces of gear, the choice of format imo doesn't matter - dante currently has probably an advantage over other formats, certainly by the sheer number of products available.

however, be prepared to deal with some frustrations as not all gear can talk to each other although it should - and it's not always the user's fault!

[in this regard, i had better experience even with a 'legacy' format such as ethersound (which btw. was already capable of running at 96k about 20 years back)]


___


personally, i still favour madi which is much faster to 'configure' - as there is nothing to configure: it either works or it doesn't so setup and troubleshooting are very fast and easy, hugely important in high pressure situations such as broadcasting (where madi is still the norm and only slowly gets replaced by aoip du jour)...

yes, channel count halfs per doubling the sampling frequency; however, fibre cables have become dirt cheap so running additional lines shouldn't break your bank.

therefore i'm glad the new rme gear additionally has madi (although i wish it would have been on sc and not on sfp) so i could easily integrate it into my madi environment (with a rme madiface xt as primary recording interface or a madiface usb for smaller projects) - i'm using format converters to get to/from madi to whatever aoip i need...
Old 20th January 2020
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
personally, i still favour madi which is much faster to 'configure' - as there is nothing to configure: it either works or it doesn't so setup and troubleshooting are very fast and easy, hugely important in high pressure situations such as broadcasting (where madi is still the norm and only slowly gets replaced by aoip du jour)...

yes, channel count halfs per doubling the sampling frequency; however, fibre cables have become dirt cheap so running additional lines shouldn't break your bank.

therefore i'm glad the new rme gear additionally has madi (although i wish it would have been on sc and not on sfp) so i could easily integrate it into my madi environment (with a rme madiface xt as primary recording interface or a madiface usb for smaller projects) - i'm using format converters to get to/from madi to whatever aiop i need...
MADI falls pretty flat when you need to distribute audio to multiple locations, an increasingly de facto requirement.
It’s neither cheap nor efficient in that scenario. Imagine a ‘MADI’ mic transmitter... 2-4 channels on a 64 channel link, ha. Why it doesn’t exist...
MADI is fine for one offs but it does not easily allow a system to grow.
Old 20th January 2020
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brew View Post
MADI falls pretty flat when you need to distribute audio to multiple locations, an increasingly de facto requirement.
It’s neither cheap nor efficient in that scenario. Imagine a ‘MADI’ mic transmitter... 2-4 channels on a 64 channel link, ha. Why it doesn’t exist...
MADI is fine for one offs but it does not easily allow a system to grow.
that's not true: on most any (newer) madi device, you can select which channels you want to include into or extract from a madi stream, mostly in banks of (multiples of) eight channels and madi streams can get splitted to multiple destinations.

there's a bunch of gear from rme available but also from lots of other manufacturers; check out the larger live desks from soundcraft, ssl, digico or large broadcast desks from studer, stagetec, lawo, calrec: they are all madi based (but of course can get expanded to talk to other gear in pretty much any format) - ssl even uses a multiplexed madi stream for high sampling/high channel counts which they call blacklight...

my (current) system has 5 madi ports on the desk; i got up to 192 channels of madi going from several stageboxes to the desk to redundant recording devices to outboard, back to the desk and on to splitters, format converters, multiple drive racks and stage boxes...

the setup consists of madi gear from studer, euphonix, rme, ssl, sony, yamaha, merging, joeco, sound devices, directout technologies; i can easily scale up (linking my desks or renting an even larger desk) or scale down (for location recording) or integrate into existing broadcasting infrastructure.

long live aes10!


___


btw: how easily can you record midi from say a e-piano on stage with your recording device at foh? no sweat for me: rme has several boxes which allow you to plug directly into and transport midi over madi (or rs-422 or rs-232 over madi) - too bad rme missed out on this box!

while we're at it: i wish they'd put slots on all of their gear which could be used with cards in different formats! even better if older gear could get retro-fitted with new cards/new formats!


___


really folks: think of this new rme mic pre as of an analog to madi/adat converter (which happens to have avb integrated - not sure how many can use avb right now though, possibly not too many...)

Last edited by deedeeyeah; 21st January 2020 at 12:41 AM.. Reason: edited twice
Old 21st January 2020
  #14
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It's odd because AVB seems more focused on consumer scenarios, that include both video and audio. You could imagine it becoming popular in home theater scenarios where all the devices connect via inexpensive ethernet or even wirelessly. It could also make a lot of sense in large commercial installations, like museums, corporate offices, etc.

If you're a pro audio manufacturer like RME, you would go with Dante if you want your products to participate in the large and growing Dante ecosystem. If you were more concerned about basing your products on open standards, you'd go with Ravenna. For RME to adopt AVB seems strange at first, but could make a lot of sense if they are planning a push into one of the markets I mention above.

Dante and Ravenna, on the other hand, are focused on audio. Dante is by far the leader in terms of equipment that supports the standard, and it seems to be the leader in commercial broadcast facilities. I do see the proprietary nature of it as a downside, since any company that wants to build equipment that supports it must license it from Audinate. And also, it means that equipment manufacturers do not really have any say in where the standard goes. It all depends on Audinate's stewardship.

Ravenna is positioned as the "boutique" solution, with Merging currently as its leading proponent. Currently, it is the only AOIP solution that supports DXD and DSD, and I believe it also has lower latency than Dante. It is an open standard, so supporting manufacturers at least have a say in where the standard goes. However, it is anyone's guess whether it will be "VHS-ed" by Dante.

Don't forget that there's a new AOIP kid on the block with a lot of inherent advantages. That would be Metric Halo's MHLink. I have 3 ULN-8s that I have not been using for a while, since we really needed AOIP for what we've been doing. However, a few months ago, I installed the 3D upgrade on them, which allows me to now aggregate not only the I/O of all the boxes, but also DSP resources. The new MIO Console is an incredible piece of work that's worth checking out. Latency with MHLink could prove to be lower than any other AOIP standard. Metric Halo has not said whether they will try to license their standard to compete with Audinate.

Maybe it's not a winner-take-all race, and there will be room for several standards. I used to think that Metric Halo was too late to the AOIP game to be relevant, but after seeing what MHLink can do, I think AOIP is just getting started. And may I also say that it would be great if everyone would get on board with AES67 and stop doing things like limiting sample rates, etc.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bremusound View Post
Why, exactly?
BTW, RME made the decision some time ago. They told me in 2018 that they will go the AVB route.
Old 22nd January 2020
  #15
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JCBigler's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by bwanajim View Post
It's odd because AVB seems more focused on consumer scenarios, that include both video and audio.
It's the opposite actually.

AVB is the standard that all the big iron manufacturers are going to standardize on.

My show is running on AVB, from the two P1 Processors to the LA4X amplifiers for the main five arrays of the system, and AES for the LA8s that run the front fills, subs and underbalc delays.

I've had several conversations with reps from both L-Acoustics and Meyer about why they are choosing to go AVB rather than Dante.

Here's the big one: AVB is a layer 2 networking protocol, while Dante is a layer 3 protocol. AVB exists on the same layer as Ethernet, at it's core, it is a competitor to Ethernet. Dante and Milan both exist on layer 3 and will compete with each other. Because Milan runs on AVB (not Ethernet), they can control the latency and dropped packets better than with Dante which runs on Ethernet.

The explanation that I got from L-Acoustics was basically that because Dante runs on Ethernet, it is inherently prone to lost packets every couple hundred thousand packets. Those lost packets add up over several minutes or hours. The entire TCP/IP protocol which runs on Ethernet and is built for fault tolerance of data transmission where you can afford to resend data for lost packets. Obviously audio can't do that, especially in real time.

That being said, I've worked several hundred shows using Dante systems and have recorded dozens of projects using Dante and have not heard a single audio drop out that wasn't attributed to some other fault in the system (usually a bad Ethernet cable or a misconfigured switch, etc..). I am also a huge fan of and supporter of Dante and would be thrilled to see even more manufacturers, especially Meyer and L-Acoustics support it.
Old 22nd January 2020
  #16
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JCBigler's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by brew View Post
MADI falls pretty flat when you need to distribute audio to multiple locations, an increasingly de facto requirement.
It’s neither cheap nor efficient in that scenario. Imagine a ‘MADI’ mic transmitter... 2-4 channels on a 64 channel link, ha. Why it doesn’t exist...
MADI is fine for one offs but it does not easily allow a system to grow.
MADI isn't really a networked system. It's just a big point to point single cable transport with a high channel density. And you're right, you can't distribute it easily to multiple locations like you can with Dante or AVB.

But the thing that keeps it going is the channel density. You can run 64 or 128 channels on a single coaxial BNC connector or fiber optic connector. You would have a huge amount of real estate taken up with XLR connectors if using AES. And ethernet based systems like Dante are the only other format offering the same channel density.

I'm not a big fan of MADI, but it is what it is until something better comes along.
Old 22nd January 2020
  #17
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tourtelot's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by JCBigler View Post
AVB is the standard that all the big iron manufacturers are going to standardize on.
I think this is correct in seeing large reinforcement as being the niche for ABV. Recording rigs and facilities will all go to Dante for reasons explained above. As for Layer 3 reliability, as also said above, Dante must have that pretty well figured out. Reliability (and bulk and weight) issues will be the death of any protocol used to get audio to where the client needs it to go.

D.
Old 23rd January 2020
  #18
AVB does have some advantages over Dante. Though with the way the industry is leaning, I can't help but think RME and MOTU are backing another BetaMax or HDDVD. Dante is well supported by a company who engage in regular development, not just an open source think tank.

The hardware specs of the new devices look good, however, the same converters as their best models, and from my discussion with the developer at NAMM, they were designed with the needs of classical location recordings in mind.

Last edited by rumleymusic; 24th January 2020 at 12:03 AM..
Old 23rd January 2020
  #19
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Here's a short video overview of the 12 Mic from NAMM: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uiN6gv...&index=20&t=0s
Old 28th January 2020
  #20
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Thank you for taking the time to share all that info, Justice. Very interesting...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JCBigler View Post
It's the opposite actually.

AVB is the standard that all the big iron manufacturers are going to standardize on.

My show is running on AVB, from the two P1 Processors to the LA4X amplifiers for the main five arrays of the system, and AES for the LA8s that run the front fills, subs and underbalc delays.

I've had several conversations with reps from both L-Acoustics and Meyer about why they are choosing to go AVB rather than Dante.

Here's the big one: AVB is a layer 2 networking protocol, while Dante is a layer 3 protocol. AVB exists on the same layer as Ethernet, at it's core, it is a competitor to Ethernet. Dante and Milan both exist on layer 3 and will compete with each other. Because Milan runs on AVB (not Ethernet), they can control the latency and dropped packets better than with Dante which runs on Ethernet.

The explanation that I got from L-Acoustics was basically that because Dante runs on Ethernet, it is inherently prone to lost packets every couple hundred thousand packets. Those lost packets add up over several minutes or hours. The entire TCP/IP protocol which runs on Ethernet and is built for fault tolerance of data transmission where you can afford to resend data for lost packets. Obviously audio can't do that, especially in real time.

That being said, I've worked several hundred shows using Dante systems and have recorded dozens of projects using Dante and have not heard a single audio drop out that wasn't attributed to some other fault in the system (usually a bad Ethernet cable or a misconfigured switch, etc..). I am also a huge fan of and supporter of Dante and would be thrilled to see even more manufacturers, especially Meyer and L-Acoustics support it.
Old 1st February 2020
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bremusound View Post
Why, exactly?
BTW, RME made the decision some time ago. They told me in 2018 that they will go the AVB route.
When they presented the M 32 Pro converters in 2018 they were already AVB-equipped.

I am sure we can rely on AVB solutions by RME, as we can rely on everything else by them. Very nice to get a real alternative to overprized Dante.
RME has never been cheap, but just compare with Focusrite RedNet range: the prizing of the new RME stuff seems to be much more reasonable.

Remember that it was basically RME alone who pushed MADI as a solution outside the broadcast world - and they succeeded very well. I think they can help AVB now to get the necessary relevance.
Old 1st February 2020
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulrich View Post
When they presented the M 32 Pro converters in 2018 they were already AVB-equipped.

I am sure we can rely on AVB solutions by RME, as we can rely on everything else by them. Very nice to get a real alternative to overprized Dante.
RME has never been cheap, but just compare with Focusrite RedNet range: the prizing of the new RME stuff seems to be much more reasonable.

Remember that it was basically RME alone who pushed MADI as a solution outside the broadcast world - and they succeeded very well. I think they can help AVB now to get the necessary relevance.
i'm with you on many merits of rme; i'd like to add though that outside the broadcast world, it's mainly been professional live sound/touring showing a pretty strong support for madi in the last 15 years.
Old 4th August 2020
  #23
Remote control ability is the main difference to my observation. Dante provides audio stream connectivity only. Remote control has to be done via other efforts, and some devices cannot be remote controlled.
Old 4th August 2020
  #24
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tourtelot's Avatar
I am here to say that I have found a perfect work-around for the difficulties of getting control over IP with a Dante network. VLANs! Once I understood how to make them work, they actually work perfectly, and all over one Cat5e cable.

Some would say that "work-arounds" are imperfect, but in this case, keeping the Dante stream separate from the control stream, makes perfect sense as far as reliability goes.

Having a second VLAN for controllers also allows me to use Wi-Fi controllers without any issues. Devices that I control over VALN, either hard wired or over Wi-Fi are Grace pres, JoeCo recorders, Allen & Heath panel, Focusrite AM2, and I even run my CCTV stream on the second VLAN. The Dante VLAN is Dante audio only. Works a treat.

D.
Old 4th August 2020
  #25
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I just started using AVB and dont own any Dante devices yet. But I understand that Dante is closed and proprietary. AVB is not. So this might explain why I noticed that all Dante devices are very expensive.

And if an engineer say that AVB protocol is lower down the stack than Dante, that is a benefit for AVB. Cheaper, based on open standards, perhaps technically superior? These things are like gravity, over time. Who uses what right now, maybe isnt predictive. Maybe it is less of a badge of honor to be more expensive for no(fewer) good technical reasons?
Old 9th August 2020
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JCBigler View Post
Here's the big one: AVB is a layer 2 networking protocol, while Dante is a layer 3 protocol. AVB exists on the same layer as Ethernet, at it's core, it is a competitor to Ethernet. Dante and Milan both exist on layer 3 and will compete with each other. Because Milan runs on AVB (not Ethernet), they can control the latency and dropped packets better than with Dante which runs on Ethernet.
The only real advantage is that AVB gets you stream reservation which may be useful if you're running at 100Mbps; otherwise, DSCP plus bandwidth over-provisioning should suffice. Both protocols use essentially the same mechanism for clock synchronisation and can be implemented in hardware.

Note: AVB exists at the same layer as IP, not Ethernet.

Quote:
The explanation that I got from L-Acoustics was basically that because Dante runs on Ethernet, it is inherently prone to lost packets every couple hundred thousand packets. Those lost packets add up over several minutes or hours. The entire TCP/IP protocol which runs on Ethernet and is built for fault tolerance of data transmission where you can afford to resend data for lost packets. Obviously audio can't do that, especially in real time.
Sounds like marketing-speak to me. Dante and AES67 both use UDP which does not do retries. Lost packets (which you shouldn't see in a managed network) are dropped.
Old 9th August 2020
  #27
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I have never used AVB or Daunte. I love MADI.
If they can get close to MADI performance out of a USB cable using AVB. That will allow a lower price point entry into a low lag system. Nice!
Old 9th August 2020
  #28
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tourtelot's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by gminorcoles View Post
perhaps technically superior?
Why would you assume that? Probably not true.

D.
Old 9th August 2020
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tourtelot View Post
Why would you assume that? Probably not true.

D.
I am not assuming, I am speculating. In general operation “lower down the stack” can have performance advantages.
Old 9th August 2020
  #30
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by gminorcoles View Post
I am not assuming, I am speculating. In general operation “lower down the stack” can have performance advantages.
True, but network stacks have been optimised for IP for a long time. The overhead of UDP is negligible.
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