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Small room small mics for piano
Old 5th December 2019 | Show parent
  #121
Gear Addict
thanks

Quote:
Originally Posted by etiefenthaler View Post
Recommend Triad-Orbit IO-C.

Erich
this looks beautiful. already ordered manfrotto one, but if I need more clamps

def I'm getting this.

Thanks!
Old 12th December 2019 | Show parent
  #122
Lives for gear
 

no small room and hence no small piano either but a relatively small mic setup:

mk21's for l/r and a tlm170 in wide cardioid for the lows - much preferred over yamahiko, dpa clips and 414's.
Attached Thumbnails
Small room small mics for piano-20191211_174153.jpg   Small room small mics for piano-20191211_174224.jpg  
Old 12th December 2019 | Show parent
  #123
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jimjazzdad's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
no small room and hence no small piano either but a relatively small mic setup:

mk21's for l/r and a tlm170 in wide cardioid for the lows - much preferred over yamahiko, dpa clips and 414's.
How is that going to help with the OP's bleed issues and his plan to control bleed with a closed lid?
Old 12th December 2019 | Show parent
  #124
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimjazzdad View Post
How is that going to help with the OP's bleed issues and his plan to control bleed with a closed lid?
i posted this as a reminder that accepting spillover (and reflections) and using mics which pick up sound in a pretty nice way not only coming from the front (and using patterns without much rear attenuation) may be an equally well suited (if not better) strategy:

the piano was about 3m behind a high-powered line/subwoofer array and had two floor wedges very close (which were fed with percussion loops and vocals): the other mics with tighter patterns i mentioned in my previous post did offer somewhat better 'grip' but any efforts were quickly cancelled out by the need to project sound with the pa (overpowering any potential rear attenuation) and/or came at the price of heavy eq tweaking, resulting in a not much relaxed but rather strained sound...

besides, mic/pattern choice and positioning avoided the need for ambi mics in the broadcast mix :-)
Attached Thumbnails
Small room small mics for piano-20191212_153139.jpg  

Last edited by deedeeyeah; 12th December 2019 at 03:14 PM.. Reason: edited twice for more detailed explanation
Old 16th December 2019 | Show parent
  #125
Gear Addict
thanks

Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
i posted this as a reminder that accepting spillover (and reflections) and using mics which pick up sound in a pretty nice way not only coming from the front (and using patterns without much rear attenuation) may be an equally well suited (if not better) strategy:

the piano was about 3m behind a high-powered line/subwoofer array and had two floor wedges very close (which were fed with percussion loops and vocals): the other mics with tighter patterns i mentioned in my previous post did offer somewhat better 'grip' but any efforts were quickly cancelled out by the need to project sound with the pa (overpowering any potential rear attenuation) and/or came at the price of heavy eq tweaking, resulting in a not much relaxed but rather strained sound...

besides, mic/pattern choice and positioning avoided the need for ambi mics in the broadcast mix :-)
the more I try more I realize that how room affects. wish my room is bigger but can't do anything about that

in my situation best solution I have found so far was close lid, put 2 cardioid mic inside piano(little thin sound but sound good to my ear), blanket over piano. (getting 2 more blanket to cover piano).

I'm not so sure that when I cover piano using blanket, should I cover all the way down to ground if I can? feel like piano mic is picking drum sound coming from ground(if it makes sense), when I cover just lid of piano. don't have longer blanket so I'm going to order some, but want to know your opinion.

also, thickness of blanket, I can buy only 0.2inch thick blanket now. thinking buying 2 of them but feel like they're bit thin. typically how thick blanket are you guys using?
Old 16th December 2019 | Show parent
  #126
Lives for gear
 

yes, mics inside a piano pick up quite a bit of the sound (seemingly) coming from underneath the piano: after all, they are on top of a very large sound board!

i'm sometimes using logs of wood underneath grand pianos to diffuse sound (or very seldom a very thick carpet but not laying flat on the floor): diffusion imo is often more valuable than absorption as the latter can rend sound a bit muffled; so no, i'm not using any blankets (unless i absolutely have to)...

[besides, they'd need to be very thick to become effectice as a broadband absorber: maybe better ask questions on efficiency of specific materials in the studio building/acoustics forum]

the gobos i'm using have an absorptive and a reflective side - the absorptive side mostly goes on the drums!

___


imo mic patterns inside a closed piano don't matter much other than one gets more lf from omnis than from directional mics; occasionally, proximity effect is more desirable though so the pattern needs to be directional.

this was the case with the tlm170 over the low strings in the example i posted above: the combined effects of an ldc, the somewhat directional pattern and hence proximity effect gave me slightly 'better' lf than from the same mic in the same position but in the omni setting (easily measured via smaart); i then used a very steep lpf on the mic (don't remember the frequency though).

Last edited by deedeeyeah; 16th December 2019 at 05:47 PM.. Reason: typo
Old 28th January 2020 | Show parent
  #127
Gear Addict
Mic choices

Quote:
Originally Posted by Remoteness View Post
Ah yes, my "Virtual Gobo" technique…

The term "virtual gobo" technique was coined in an article I was in called, “Drum Miking for Live Recordings.” It was in the April 2001 issue of EQ Magazine. I talked about how recording a live performance can be a challenging gig because you want to achieve the best possible recording without changing the artists' world or make then uncomfortable. We cannot always place gobos on stage to isolate musicians during a live show, but there are some simple ways to take advantage of the microphone polar pattern to increase isolation and reduce leakage problems. That’s what I call the "virtual gobo."

It's quite simple, really... "It’s all about the placement and positioning of all transducers involved with the live recording." This technique ensures that the sound quality of the recording is at a maximum, while on stage leakage is kept to a minimum.

To get more control of the recorded sound during the mix I tend to place and position the mics and speakers to maximize the isolation. You can curb the "bad" leakage with proper mic placement in reference to where the speakers are placed.

When we are primary audio on stage, we get to pick the mics and position them as we like. If necessary, we suggest different speaker placements to help the recording. It all depends on how important the recording is to the production. I try to position the mics away from loud sound sources. Kind of like a "virtual gobo" or gate. This is one place were "Vaporware" gobos workout well. Pointing the mics away from the offensive sound source will yield better isolation and less noise to gate or mute later. That makes our job much easier during the mix process.

As you may already know, recording a live performance can be a challenging situation because you want to achieve the best possible recording without changing the artists’ world or making them uncomfortable. It’s a balance between the ultimate placement of microphones and what the artist and their engineers are comfortable with – especially for drums. Obviously we cannot always place gobos on stage to isolate the musicians during a live concert performance, but there are some simple ways to take advantage of microphone polar patterns to increase isolation and reduce leakage problems. By getting it right in the recording process, there’s no need to “fix it in the mix.” By the way, you can use these ideas for sound reinforcement dates as well.

Although there are usually no baffles around the drums, we’re able to achieve pretty good isolation of the drum mics from bass, guitar, piano, etc. – even where the overhead mics are concerned.

My drum mic'ing technique has been fairly consistent regardless of the drummer and kit. I haven’t changed my drum mic procedure in decades. The basic idea is that I position the mics to take advantage of their pickup patterns, and reduce leakage as much as possible. I rotate each and every mic so that the back of the polar pattern is pointing toward a stage monitor or whatever instrument might be challenging the drum sound. You need to keep the rejection point of the mic facing toward the offensive sound, minimizing the leakage. To check phase between the mics, I solo various combinations of mics in mono and listen carefully to whether the low end becomes weaker when they’re added together. If the low end weakens, I move the mic to help fatten the sound.

Drum overhead mics can be a source of unwanted leakage due to the fact that they’re generally placed around the kit pointing in “unfriendly” directions. For me, the key to isolating my beyer M160s (my favorite O/H mics for decades) is to place them high up, pointing straight down. Looking at the floor tom side I center one mic over the floor tom and cymbals. On the other (hi-hat) side of the kit I make sure that this overhead mic is centered somewhere between the snare, first rack tom and cymbals.

What’s interesting to me about this arrangement is that the higher I place the overheads (most of the time that is) above the kit, the more cymbals and drum kit I get, while the less bleed I get from the stage. It’s the reverse of what you’d expect, but the higher they go, the better the isolation of the kit from the rest of the stage. Bringing the overheads down close will give you more bell of the cymbals, but remember that you’re also closer to the other instruments and speakers. Sixty percent of my drum sound is a balance between the two overhead mics and the rest of the kit mics.

Important note: If you're not mixing the tracks, this may cause some serious problems for the mixer down the road. They will not be able to "fix it in the mix" and unfortunately, you're also not helping the mixer's economics when you do this kind of stuff.

On a more serious note, of course there ways to practice this! Hiring someone to play while your experiment with the different mics and mic placements is a fabulous idea. Remember to also position the instruments and other transducers in the room. Experimentation is key!
Hello Steve! It’s been a while.

I haven’t upload any samples yet but about to. Recorded couple of songs students playing, and I realized that I need few more mics.

For drums ; m160 x 2 overheads work out great,
So I need “knee” microphone, and maybe one more for kick drum.

For upright bass : tried c414 in figure 8, hypercardi but still there were many spills and it sounds rather thin.

So I guess I gotta buy at least 2 more mics

One for knee mic(drum)
One for upright bass.

Budget is 1000$-1300$ max.

What I am thinking is,
Tlm103 (user) for knee mic
Senn MD441 for upright bass.

What do you think?
Old 28th January 2020 | Show parent
  #128
Super Moderator
 
Remoteness's Avatar
I have used both the TLM103 on the Knee and the MD441 on upright bass and they worked out well.

You may want to rethink the MD441 and perhaps, consider a DPA 4099 with their 4099 bass clamp.

There are other options for both those positions.

The Sennheiser MKH8000 series mics come to mind.



Quote:
Originally Posted by shimoyjk View Post
Hello Steve! It’s been a while.

I haven’t upload any samples yet but about to. Recorded couple of songs students playing, and I realized that I need few more mics.

For drums ; m160 x 2 overheads work out great,
So I need “knee” microphone, and maybe one more for kick drum.

For upright bass : tried c414 in figure 8, hypercardi but still there were many spills and it sounds rather thin.

So I guess I gotta buy at least 2 more mics

One for knee mic(drum)
One for upright bass.

Budget is 1000$-1300$ max.

What I am thinking is,
Tlm103 (user) for knee mic
Senn MD441 for upright bass.

What do you think?
Old 28th January 2020
  #129
Gear Maniac
 

Hey,

I did a recording with RBB (local state radio) last weekend. The bass player brought an MBHO Haun 608 (lollipop multi pattern LDC) that we used suspended in the bridge. Worked really well (we had small gobos on both sides of the bass) and actually outperformed the RBB's Schoeps MK8 we used the first night.
Has any one tried a M130 suspended in the bridge? I'd love to, but didn't have the opportunity yet.

Cheers, Peer
Old 11th February 2020 | Show parent
  #130
Gear Addict
overhead placement

Quote:
Originally Posted by Remoteness View Post
I have used both the TLM103 on the Knee and the MD441 on upright bass and they worked out well.

You may want to rethink the MD441 and perhaps, consider a DPA 4099 with their 4099 bass clamp.

There are other options for both those positions.

The Sennheiser MKH8000 series mics come to mind.

Hello Steve!

now I've done few sessions hereI'm getting useable piano sound,

have not been able to get decent bass sound(bass sounds good but too much bleed),

and also drums(not bad, small leakage).

I realized that I wasn't really thinking about placement of drum overheads.

let's say I'm using 4 mics for drums

2 overheads M160
1 Knee Mic
1 snare(since drummer is playing pretty softly and also able to play with great balance himself & using brushes a lot, I thought one mic for snare would be great. )

or

2 Overheads
1 knee mic
1 snare
1 kick

this is what i'm thinking. But other than other mics, for overheads

what should I look for?

Left O.H should contain enough cymbals, and floor tom and some kick & snare,

RIght O.H should have crash, hi hat, snare and kick?

also should I match distance between O.H's and snare so that can minimize phase issues?


sorry if this question has been asked before, I tried search this forum but wasn't able to find your answer. (saw lots of photos and your explanation about Gobo and lots of things which were helpful and very enlightening
Old 13th February 2020 | Show parent
  #131
Super Moderator
 
Remoteness's Avatar
Nice to hear your acoustic piano sound is improving.

In time I trust you will also get your acoustic bass sound in order. Consider working on making the bleed in the bass sound like good leakage rather than bad leakage. Listen to the bass tracks and focus in on what is bleeding into the mics. Then work on a solution to prevent or minimized its affect on the bass sound.

With proper mic placement you should have the least amount of bleed in the drum mics. Again, listen to those mics and figure out which instruments are getting into those mics and come up with the proper solution...

It's all about which mics you are using and their placement. I get incredible isolation on my drum mics even in extremely loud environments.

Those M160s overhead must be placed as per how I do it. Nothing else truly works if you want to do your best to get rid of the ugly bleed from the other instruments or monitor speakers.

Placement of the knee mic is also crucial. Any omni mic will do. A cardioid mic can also work if you spent enough time getting the positioning of the mic right so it captures exactly what you're looking for.

Adding bass and snare drum mics is a good safety net. I really like using a KMS105 for snare these days. I also like using a M88 or D12VR for the bass drum.

When it comes to capturing a drum kit, I like to section off the kit by placing each M160 over a group of cymbals and drums. You pretty much described the overhead grouping, except, don't think about the bass drum, just the cymbals, snare and toms. The knee mic is taking care of the main balance and the overheads create the spread.

I never deal with distance matching like you described. I maintain an equal height over the kit, but make sure I position the M160 exactly center between the cymbals/drums I'm grouping. The M160s are placed (straight down) over each grouping no matter how strange it may seem or what that other engineer is telling you "will not work!" I drew a quick sketch for your review.

I hope this helped.


Quote:
Originally Posted by shimoyjk View Post
Hello Steve!

now I've done few sessions hereI'm getting useable piano sound,

have not been able to get decent bass sound(bass sounds good but too much bleed),

and also drums(not bad, small leakage).

I realized that I wasn't really thinking about placement of drum overheads.

let's say I'm using 4 mics for drums

2 overheads M160
1 Knee Mic
1 snare(since drummer is playing pretty softly and also able to play with great balance himself & using brushes a lot, I thought one mic for snare would be great. )

or

2 Overheads
1 knee mic
1 snare
1 kick

this is what i'm thinking. But other than other mics, for overheads

what should I look for?

Left O.H should contain enough cymbals, and floor tom and some kick & snare,

RIght O.H should have crash, hi hat, snare and kick?

also should I match distance between O.H's and snare so that can minimize phase issues?


sorry if this question has been asked before, I tried search this forum but wasn't able to find your answer. (saw lots of photos and your explanation about Gobo and lots of things which were helpful and very enlightening
Attached Thumbnails
Small room small mics for piano-0213200233-01-01.jpg  
Old 13th February 2020 | Show parent
  #132
Gear Addict
Thanks for big help!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Remoteness View Post
Nice to hear your acoustic piano sound is improving.

In time I trust you will also get your acoustic bass sound in order. Consider working on making the bleed in the bass sound like good leakage rather than bad leakage. Listen to the bass tracks and focus in on what is bleeding into the mics. Then work on a solution to prevent or minimized its affect on the bass sound.

With proper mic placement you should have the least amount of bleed in the drum mics. Again, listen to those mics and figure out which instruments are getting into those mics and come up with the proper solution...

It's all about which mics you are using and their placement. I get incredible isolation on my drum mics even in extremely loud environments.

Those M160s overhead must be placed as per how I do it. Nothing else truly works if you want to do your best to get rid of the ugly bleed from the other instruments or monitor speakers.

Placement of the knee mic is also crucial. Any omni mic will do. A cardioid mic can also work if you spent enough time getting the positioning of the mic right so it captures exactly what you're looking for.

Adding bass and snare drum mics is a good safety net. I really like using a KMS105 for snare these days. I also like using a M88 or D12VR for the bass drum.

When it comes to capturing a drum kit, I like to section off the kit by placing each M160 over a group of cymbals and drums. You pretty much described the overhead grouping, except, don't think about the bass drum, just the cymbals, snare and toms. The knee mic is taking care of the main balance and the overheads create the spread.

I never deal with distance matching like you described. I maintain an equal height over the kit, but make sure I position the M160 exactly center between the cymbals/drums I'm grouping. The M160s are placed (straight down) over each grouping no matter how strange it may seem or what that other engineer is telling you "will not work!" I drew a quick sketch for your review.

I hope this helped.
Thank you Steve!

I realized that I wasn’t listening what was leaking into bass mic. I was just worried and didn’t think how to prevent more leakage. Now it’s more clear for me.
Very excited to mic bass next time.
Also, picture you draw is prefect. I’ve been searching some articles and read them, also watched few videos about overheads mic techniques.
I feel like it’s getting there. Can’t wait to experiment and start recording next thursday!
Will report back with bunch of examples as soon as recording is over!
Old 13th February 2020 | Show parent
  #133
Super Moderator
 
Remoteness's Avatar
You will not see my overhead mic'ing technique explained on an instructional video by anyone else. Not many engineers know exactly how I approach it in this particular way. My friends and colleagues that have worked with me and seen it done over the years or heard me explain the specific way it's done know how to mic it this way.

That being said, there's nothing wrong with other techniques, or even trying new techniques that never been done. But for me, this (decades long) technique has never failed me.


Quote:
Originally Posted by shimoyjk View Post
Thank you Steve!

I realized that I wasn’t listening what was leaking into bass mic. I was just worried and didn’t think how to prevent more leakage. Now it’s more clear for me.
Very excited to mic bass next time.
Also, picture you draw is prefect. I’ve been searching some articles and read them, also watched few videos about overheads mic techniques.
I feel like it’s getting there. Can’t wait to experiment and start recording next thursday!
Will report back with bunch of examples as soon as recording is over!
Old 14th February 2020 | Show parent
  #134
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Remoteness View Post
Nice to hear your acoustic piano sound is improving.

In time I trust you will also get your acoustic bass sound in order. Consider working on making the bleed in the bass sound like good leakage rather than bad leakage. Listen to the bass tracks and focus in on what is bleeding into the mics. Then work on a solution to prevent or minimized its affect on the bass sound.

With proper mic placement you should have the least amount of bleed in the drum mics. Again, listen to those mics and figure out which instruments are getting into those mics and come up with the proper solution...

It's all about which mics you are using and their placement. I get incredible isolation on my drum mics even in extremely loud environments.

Those M160s overhead must be placed as per how I do it. Nothing else truly works if you want to do your best to get rid of the ugly bleed from the other instruments or monitor speakers.

Placement of the knee mic is also crucial. Any omni mic will do. A cardioid mic can also work if you spent enough time getting the positioning of the mic right so it captures exactly what you're looking for.

Adding bass and snare drum mics is a good safety net. I really like using a KMS105 for snare these days. I also like using a M88 or D12VR for the bass drum.

When it comes to capturing a drum kit, I like to section off the kit by placing each M160 over a group of cymbals and drums. You pretty much described the overhead grouping, except, don't think about the bass drum, just the cymbals, snare and toms. The knee mic is taking care of the main balance and the overheads create the spread.

I never deal with distance matching like you described. I maintain an equal height over the kit, but make sure I position the M160 exactly center between the cymbals/drums I'm grouping. The M160s are placed (straight down) over each grouping no matter how strange it may seem or what that other engineer is telling you "will not work!" I drew a quick sketch for your review.

I hope this helped.
Thank you Sir for sharing this!
Old 14th February 2020 | Show parent
  #135
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Remoteness View Post
You will not see my overhead mic'ing technique explained on an instructional video by anyone else. Not many engineers know exactly how I approach it in this particular way. My friends and colleagues that have worked with me and seen it done over the years or heard me explain the specific way it's done know how to mic it this way.

That being said, there's nothing wrong with other techniques, or even trying new techniques that never been done. But for me, this (decades long) technique has never failed me.
Well, at least one bunch of testers has come pretty close to your findings, very much concurring with you about the qualities of the M160 as a drum stereo overhead mic, and also as a mono room mic >>> https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/ribbon-mics-test
Old 14th February 2020 | Show parent
  #136
Super Moderator
 
Remoteness's Avatar
Sure, plenty of engineers use the M160s as overhead mics. I was referring to my specific mic'ing technique that gets what you can hear on my recordings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
Well, at least one bunch of testers has come pretty close to your findings, very much concurring with you about the qualities of the M160 as a drum stereo overhead mic, and also as a mono room mic >>> https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/ribbon-mics-test
Old 14th February 2020 | Show parent
  #137
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Remoteness View Post
Sure, plenty of engineers use the M160s as overhead mics. I was referring to my specific mic'ing technique that gets what you can hear on my recordings.
Without doubt....love their descriptive turn of phrase about the mic too:

"It is easy to hear why the Beyers are so well-known for drums. The lovely smooth lift at around 4kHz has the effect of making snare drums jump out of the wider mix and really punch you in the face: the effect is similar to giving your drummer a double vodka and Redbull and then insulting his mother just before a take! "

Not forgetting, according to recordinghacks: "Jimi Hendrix actually used a certain ribbon microphone in the 60s in front of his Marshall amps — the beyerdynamic M160! He was also reported to have used it for his vocals"
Old 14th February 2020 | Show parent
  #138
Super Moderator
 
Remoteness's Avatar
John Bonham's (drum) room mic was a M160.


Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
Without doubt....love their descriptive turn of phrase about the mic too:

"It is easy to hear why the Beyers are so well-known for drums. The lovely smooth lift at around 4kHz has the effect of making snare drums jump out of the wider mix and really punch you in the face: the effect is similar to giving your drummer a double vodka and Redbull and then insulting his mother just before a take! "

Not forgetting, according to recordinghacks: "Jimi Hendrix actually used a certain ribbon microphone in the 60s in front of his Marshall amps — the beyerdynamic M160! He was also reported to have used it for his vocals"
Old 15th February 2020 | Show parent
  #139
Super Moderator
 
Remoteness's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by shimoyjk View Post
Thank you Steve!

I realized that I wasn’t listening what was leaking into bass mic. I was just worried and didn’t think how to prevent more leakage. Now it’s more clear for me.
Very excited to mic bass next time.
Also, picture you draw is prefect. I’ve been searching some articles and read them, also watched few videos about overheads mic techniques.
I feel like it’s getting there. Can’t wait to experiment and start recording next thursday!
Will report back with bunch of examples as soon as recording is over!
In this live music video, you can see my mic placement in action. Plenty of closeup drum shots you can freeze-frame.



Keep in mind that the band is performing on a very small stage, yet there's plenty if isolation and good leakage in the tracks.
Old 17th February 2020 | Show parent
  #140
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Remoteness View Post
You may want to rethink the MD441 and perhaps, consider a DPA 4099 with their 4099 bass clamp.
Hey Steeve,

do you like the bleed on the 4099? A Cello player brought one to a gig I was mixing yesterday, drum bleed was horrible. 441 worked a lot better.

Cheers, Peer
Old 18th February 2020 | Show parent
  #141
Super Moderator
 
Remoteness's Avatar
Hey Peer,

Steve tuning in...

Well, it really depends on a few things. If I'm placing the mics and situating all the instruments and stage monitors, then I usually like the "good" leakage I get with 4099. That being said, everything is relative. If I'm involved with the origination, I do my best to listen to what I'm capturing, so if I hear something I do not like, I change it while I'm on location. Sometime you don't have those options and you must do what you can.

Did you use a MD441 for cello? The bottom line is, if it sounds good go for no matter what you may have been told. Getting the best possible result is what counts in the end. You mix engineer will thank you for it.

Interestingly, I use more inputs for the upright bass than the drum kit. I want plenty of options to choose from. I sling a KM84 in the bridge with rubber bands, I stuff a SM98 or Beta98 with foam in the F-hole, I place mics on stands, I hang a MD409 over the speake on the bass amp, I grab the pickup via a DI or XLR output from the bass amp and of course the 4099. On loud stage volume performances, I'd rather have the extra inputs and not need them, than need them and wish I had them.

Here's a link to a thread discussing "Another Kind of Blue - the Latin Side of Miles Davis" project I did a gazillion years ago.



Quote:
Originally Posted by PeerSoe View Post
Hey Steeve,

do you like the bleed on the 4099? A Cello player brought one to a gig I was mixing yesterday, drum bleed was horrible. 441 worked a lot better.

Cheers, Peer
Old 18th February 2020
  #142
Gear Maniac
 

Hey Steve,

yes, I did use the 441 on Cello.
Reason I ask is that a 4099 is pretty high on my get list as I don't own one yet. The bleed I got on Sunday put me off a bit. I have to cross check with some other 4099 tracks I have on my drive...
And yes, in the end the mic that sounds best get's used, no matter what the forums says...

Cheers, Peer
Old 18th February 2020 | Show parent
  #143
Super Moderator
 
Remoteness's Avatar
Just like with any good tool, it has to be used correctly. It's very important to make sure those 4099s are positioned right. Make sure the area around the instrument is situated properly (IE: monitors; other instruments; PA etc) is also paramount.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PeerSoe View Post
Hey Steve,

yes, I did use the 441 on Cello.
Reason I ask is that a 4099 is pretty high on my get list as I don't own one yet. The bleed I got on Sunday put me off a bit. I have to cross check with some other 4099 tracks I have on my drive...
And yes, in the end the mic that sounds best get's used, no matter what the forums says...

Cheers, Peer
Old 19th February 2020
  #144
Gear Addict
I did quick rehearsal and prepared for session last night, everything pretty much sounded great!

I'm not so sure about knee mic position and kick, so going to experiment with those quickly but overheads(m160 x 2) sounded really good.

also I found that when everybody is playing not too loud, open headphone works pretty well. (It may vary but we rehearsed 3 songs last night, none of them are loud so I think it worked out.) drummer was wearing senn hd600, everybody else were wearing beyer, Audio technica close back and I felt if I were using hd600 I might feel more comfortable playing piano since piano was covered by big blanket and there was almost none bleed in to piano mic's so I placed an order for Beyer DT 990 pro (open) for tomorrow.

I have another session this weekend so when it's done, I'll post pictures with some clips !

P.S I used sdc (line audio cm4) wrapped in towel and put under the bridge between 2,3 rd sting, mic was looking at just wood side and it sounded really good. but while we're playing it moved little bit and later on mic was looking little bit up side(?) and all the sudden bass sound was too boomy.
I'll use little audix clamp tomorrow.
also, ran out of mic, I had to use sdc for kick drum, pretty closed to skin and it resonated like hell, so I put another ldc (la-320) this time and positioned bit further from skin. sounded better than closed sdc, but still it resonated some so I have to fix this as well.
Old 19th February 2020 | Show parent
  #145
Super Moderator
 
Remoteness's Avatar
Good to hear you are progressing forward.

Here's a video of the tune, 'Remembering' by Avishi Cohen from the DVD/CD we did for Half Note Records from the Blue Note Jazz Club. The quality of this YouTube clip is at 360p, yet it still sounds decent considering the resolution. Listen to the upright bass and how it fits in with the piano and drums. All my mic techniques that have been discussed are in play here.



Quote:
Originally Posted by shimoyjk View Post
I did quick rehearsal and prepared for session last night, everything pretty much sounded great!

I'm not so sure about knee mic position and kick, so going to experiment with those quickly but overheads(m160 x 2) sounded really good.

also I found that when everybody is playing not too loud, open headphone works pretty well. (It may vary but we rehearsed 3 songs last night, none of them are loud so I think it worked out.) drummer was wearing senn hd600, everybody else were wearing beyer, Audio technica close back and I felt if I were using hd600 I might feel more comfortable playing piano since piano was covered by big blanket and there was almost none bleed in to piano mic's so I placed an order for Beyer DT 990 pro (open) for tomorrow.

I have another session this weekend so when it's done, I'll post pictures with some clips !

P.S I used sdc (line audio cm4) wrapped in towel and put under the bridge between 2,3 rd sting, mic was looking at just wood side and it sounded really good. but while we're playing it moved little bit and later on mic was looking little bit up side(?) and all the sudden bass sound was too boomy.
I'll use little audix clamp tomorrow.
also, ran out of mic, I had to use sdc for kick drum, pretty closed to skin and it resonated like hell, so I put another ldc (la-320) this time and positioned bit further from skin. sounded better than closed sdc, but still it resonated some so I have to fix this as well.
Old 21st March 2020
  #146
Gear Addict
photos and examples as promised..

Ok

it’s been a while since I finished recording,

i’m during mixing process right now but I’ll post few examples…

I didn’t get best sound of my gears this time, but hope get better overtime!

mic were used ;

PIANO : LRM-2B (ribbon mic) x 2

GUITAR : Rode NTR and DI(Radial DI ) but didn’t use, amp sounded good

BASS : lineaudio cm4 x 1
Sontronics Aria

but there were too much bleed issue and also due to bad miking too much low end, so I had to re-record bass

Drums : M160 x 2 for Overheads
Lauren Audio la-320 for Kick
Shure KSM141 omni mode for Knee



Preamps : for Piano AEA RPQ500 x 2

everything else were used stock apollo preamp.

I patched wrong Dav BG1 which is 2 CH excellent mic preamp, so I used stock apollo preamp. (found out after the session. what a dumb I am lol)


What I learned ;

after session and during mixing, I realized that mixing can’t fix Bad recorded source.
also I learned that my lack of hearing good sound. what I mean by that is I thought what I recorded was decent but there were lots of problems actually, so I’m going to keep experiment with mic technique.

also learned some about instruments itself.

Piano ; every piano is different but if there is string noise or some ringing tone, I should have fix before the session by calling technician. there is a lady who tune my piano every once in a while, but now I know I can request specific things for her, next time she comes in to tune piano hopefully issues are gone !



Bass ; so hard to mic properly.. I have to experiment much more to make decent.

Drum : Overhead sounded good I think, but knee and kick wasn’t easy. I wanted buy some mic before session but couldn’t do it, but next time I want decent dynamic for kick and better position for both knee and kick as well.


also phase issues ; to my ear Piano sounds not too bad, but there were some phase issues so I’m going to experiment with mic position again.


microphone polar pattern ; I wonder what if I made bass player facing drummer. I used two cardioid mic(CM4, ARIA) to capture very dark bass and wanted use only one mic that sounded better but both mic had problems.

bassist was standing like this.




some photos from the sessions.


about mp3's..

I put RE on file name for re-recorded source(bass and piano), I didn't wanted to do it since we played together in the same room, no over dub was what I wanted but bass sound was too boomy and too much bleed in, as well as piano sound was not satisfying so I re-recorded for about 2 songs(7 songs total).

I know there's lots of problems , but I learned a lot this time and hopefully next time I do much better!
Attached Thumbnails
Small room small mics for piano-img_0042.jpg   Small room small mics for piano-img_0044.jpg   Small room small mics for piano-img_0055.jpg   Small room small mics for piano-img_0047.jpg   Small room small mics for piano-img_0105.jpg  

Small room small mics for piano-img_0106.jpg   Small room small mics for piano-img_0220.jpg  
Attached Files

BASS.mp3 (364.1 KB, 310 views)

BASS REREC.mp3 (373.6 KB, 303 views)

DRUM.mp3 (357.9 KB, 311 views)

PIANO.mp3 (326.4 KB, 319 views)

song example.mp3 (351.7 KB, 297 views)

PIANO REREC.mp3 (331.4 KB, 309 views)

song ex.mp3 (559.3 KB, 304 views)

Old 21st March 2020
  #147
Lives for gear
I see two different piano mic setups in two different pictures, but I don’t know which setup goes with which clip. Neither setup makes sense to me. One has the mics right down on the piano harp, and the other seems to have four mics (two different pairs) on the piano.
Old 21st March 2020 | Show parent
  #148
Gear Addict
sorry about that

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bushman View Post
I see two different piano mic setups in two different pictures, but I don’t know which setup goes with which clip. Neither setup makes sense to me. One has the mics right down on the piano harp, and the other seems to have four mics (two different pairs) on the piano.

sorry about that,

so first 3 pics (5,6,7) is what I did and you can listen named "PIANO"

and last picture (with 4 mics, but only used 2 spaced pair, xy sounded not that good.) -> PIANO RE REC
Old 21st March 2020 | Show parent
  #149
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by shimoyjk View Post
sorry about that,

so first 3 pics (5,6,7) is what I did and you can listen named "PIANO"

and last picture (with 4 mics, but only used 2 spaced pair, xy sounded not that good.) -> PIANO RE REC
Thanks, that makes more sense.
Old 29th May 2020
  #150
Gear Addict
Ok, came back, it's been a while.

I was able to recorded some clips today while teaching.

just mic'ed piano this time to see how much bleed I get when I open lid and not using any cover or Gobo. will try with Gobo and cover next time I think.

2 ribbons were used using Dr. Biil's mic technique, feel like I didn't get it right..

anyway here is short sample

oh and drummer and bassist were students, school closed for covid-19 so they came to my space for a class.

when I pan L, R it sounded ok to me.
but when I listen each mic, especially one mic (Left) sounded not so good.

I learned it's because my baby grand is not great piano, it has great mid range sound but at the same time it make some weird honky(?) sound as well.

I'm going to try with Shure KSM 141 pair next time, with cardioid option.
Attached Thumbnails
Small room small mics for piano-img_1070.jpg   Small room small mics for piano-img_1071-1-.jpg  
Attached Files

piano sample.mp3 (4.01 MB, 226 views)

Left.mp3 (4.01 MB, 227 views)

Right.mp3 (4.01 MB, 221 views)

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