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Crazy4Jazz 25th September 2019 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by achabloop5080 (Post 14226316)
Where did you put the km183s? I ask because I also have them but I've some problem founding the right position, not too close and not too far...
Btw very good sound despite the small room, you've done a really good job! kfhkh

I’ve used two different arrangements over time. The recording was done with the two 183s on a stereo bar pretty much in the middle over the harp about 4 inches back from the hammers.

One problem with the closed lid is excessive low frequency information. Moving the mics closer to the hammers can help but unless you have a big enough room or a separate room for the piano allowing for full stick you will need to use EQ.

I tend to EQ at the mix stage because I’m often playing and engineering. Recently I got a Daking preamp for piano that has high pass filters on each of the two channels. I haven’t gotten this completely working yet but I will eventually find the right settings and mic positioning that I like.

Regardless of mics, lid position, blankets, room acoustics, preamps & EQs, mic position makes the biggest difference. If you get that the rest will fall into place.

Crazy4Jazz 25th September 2019 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blanneau (Post 14226460)
Joe Bongiorno used these on his early solo piano albums. I think he now uses Earthworks omni with his new piano.

The only thing that seems a bit off putting about the Earthworks system is it only does close mic recording. I guess you could put the mics on stands for different kinds of mic techniques but it’s an expensive system with limitations.

Most people probably only ever use close mic spaced pairs so not a problem for them.

Crazy4Jazz 25th September 2019 09:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deedeeyeah (Post 14226610)
you may want to use some more microphones (especially in a small room) than may seem necessary (to blur the image and send ambient mics into efx devices) and use highly directional (dynamic) spots (and then expanders which can further help to get some 'grip').

I wouldn't suggest not trying room mics just because I find them unnecessary. I'm often recording ensembles in a small room with quite a few open mics throughout the room. I get plenty of ambient sound right there. But if I were recording just the piano as, for instance, an overdub I would certainly try it out. Worst case scenario I just don't use the ambient room mic. Best case scenario I get a better recording.

Like was said, use what works for you.

One thing to bear in mind is that different pianos have very different sounds. One of my regular gigs is on a Yamaha. Not a bad piano but very different from the Steinway in my studio. The Steinway has a deep, rich tone. Yamaha has a much sharper tone.

Last thing, all pianos sound their best right after they have been well tuned. That lasts about a day or two. The change is very subtle and certainly won't ruin a recording or be perceived as out of tune, not for a while, but there is a sonority when freshly tuned that can't be beat. I love it and wish I could tune my piano every time I played it. But, of course, I can't.

deedeeyeah 25th September 2019 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crazy4Jazz (Post 14229582)
I wouldn't suggest not trying room mics (...)

guess you got me wrong on this, see also my previous post (or i couldn't get my point across very well):

the way i mostly work, room mics are an integral part of the sound.
especially with large (and relatively loud) instruments, it's ALWAYS also about the room (up to the point that with an organ in a church, it's ALL about the room imo)!

Counterpoint85 26th September 2019 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crazy4Jazz (Post 14229560)
The only thing that seems a bit off putting about the Earthworks system is it only does close mic recording. I guess you could put the mics on stands for different kinds of mic techniques but it’s an expensive system with limitations.

Most people probably only ever use close mic spaced pairs so not a problem for them.

The whole point with the PM40 is the ability to get a good sound even with the lid closed. If you don't care about that and want more flexible positioning go with the QTC series.


Lurcher_lover 26th September 2019 08:17 PM

I'm not greatly impressed with that piano sound. Must be the instrument? Just my personal opinion.

Crazy4Jazz 27th September 2019 03:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deedeeyeah (Post 14229614)
guess you got me wrong on this, see also my previous post (or i couldn't get my point across very well):

the way i mostly work, room mics are an integral part of the sound.
especially with large (and relatively loud) instruments, it's ALWAYS also about the room (up to the point that with an organ in a church, it's ALL about the room imo)!

If it wasn’t clear before it is now. I do understand how much of a role the room plays. But this thread was specifically about small rooms and my point was that when there are a lot of open mics in s small room I don’t see the need for another to capture the room. It’s there anyway unless you want to process the room mic. But at that point it’s up to individual taste.

shimoyjk 27th September 2019 04:28 AM

Dimension and instrument places..
 
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by deedeeyeah (Post 14228542)
...maybe note there were no additional mics on the pianos in any of the pics i posted (except for a yamahiko on one occasion which in the end didn't get used) - and what i meant when saying more mics than seemingly necessary, i was thinking about additional room mics.

the rationale behind this is to get a solid picture from few close mics (and not a blurry image due to phase offsets between multiple mics on a same instrument) but then add room sound to whatever extent you wish, maybe from a coincident pair and a very widely spaced a/b pair (only to widen the picture/get some air).

i do use multiple mics on piano as well, but only if i can/want to/need to picture the instrument in multiple ways and let the musician (and/or producer) decide - if so, i often use a pair inside, a pair or trio on the outside, a 'main' pair and/or ambis, depending on various factors of the venue/room/hall.

same for drums: i would drop the right knee mic in favour of a dedicated snare mic (with spill from the hats); if using right knee mic, i'd forget about the overhead. only with a fully miked up kit, i'd use oh's plus maybe right knee mic - in this order...

but hey, use whatever does the trick - good luck, have fun and keep us posted!




p.s. thx for your kind words but i got no wisdom, just a bit of experience...

I’m attaching rough image that just draw..

First time when I recorded, piano was placed in drums in the picture, lid open and there were too many drums in piano.

So I placed piano where computer is now, lis open and heading wall. Didn’t get good result as well.

Now I placed piano and drum as it is shown in the drawing, but haven’t had a time to do recordings these days. Hopefully can do some work around november..

Anyway, I made 4 huge gobo, and acoustic panels and clouds now.

Also, You mentioned to use two mic for piano, and when I test recording by myself I liked two cardioids(ksm141) near hammer and two ribbons near piano’s curve, liked that sound from both pair set. Card one has more attack, ribbon one has little more mellow sound so I fiugure it might be a good idea to use 4 mic for piano that next time(alo I placed an order for pair of cm4 as you suggested, and going to get beyer m160 for drum soon.)

also going to experiment with only two cardioid as well.
But when I placed pair of ksm141(cardi mode) near hammer, right behind music stand, I started recording and when to drums to check how cardioid can reject drum bleed, so I played tomtom and bass drum. There were still lots of spills..

Blanket may help I guess?

Anyway thanks all for your insights, ideas and examples. I am going to experiment, hope can upload some soon.

deedeeyeah 27th September 2019 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crazy4Jazz (Post 14232452)
If it wasn’t clear before it is now. I do understand how much of a role the room plays. But this thread was specifically about small rooms and my point was that when there are a lot of open mics in s small room I don’t see the need for another to capture the room. It’s there anyway unless you want to process the room mic. But at that point it’s up to individual taste.

of course i'd process the room mics (as mentioned previously), it's manadatory in small rooms! - but also an integral part of the whole concept:
use less mics on the sources (any additional mic will add some 3db of mostly unwanted sound) and try to avoid some spill but since this cannot be achieved with instruments close together and reflections from all bounaries of a small room, you've gotta live with it.
dedicated room mics however imo woud still get you a superior sound compared to spill from a multitude of close/oh mics...

deedeeyeah 27th September 2019 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shimoyjk (Post 14232521)
I’m attaching rough image that just draw..

First time when I recorded, piano was placed in drums in the picture, lid open and there were too many drums in piano.

So I placed piano where computer is now, lis open and heading wall. Didn’t get good result as well.

Now I placed piano and drum as it is shown in the drawing, but haven’t had a time to do recordings these days. Hopefully can do some work around november..

Anyway, I made 4 huge gobo, and acoustic panels and clouds now.

Also, You mentioned to use two mic for piano, and when I test recording by myself I liked two cardioids(ksm141) near hammer and two ribbons near piano’s curve, liked that sound from both pair set. Card one has more attack, ribbon one has little more mellow sound so I fiugure it might be a good idea to use 4 mic for piano that next time(alo I placed an order for pair of cm4 as you suggested, and going to get beyer m160 for drum soon.)

also going to experiment with only two cardioid as well.
But when I placed pair of ksm141(cardi mode) near hammer, right behind music stand, I started recording and when to drums to check how cardioid can reject drum bleed, so I played tomtom and bass drum. There were still lots of spills..

Blanket may help I guess?

Anyway thanks all for your insights, ideas and examples. I am going to experiment, hope can upload some soon.

if the musicians are okay with it, i'd use the exact same setup as in your sketch! regarding mics on the piano however, i'd use only two! two are enough to picture the instrument, additional mics will only add noise (once the band starts playing). there is not much of a point in trying to achieve a great sound on it's own if this sound then gets ruined by other instruments, see also my previous post...

imo recording in small rooms (and mixing live) is about 'functions' and less about 'sound': there is no way one can stop sound travelling into all the mics, regardless of their type, pattern and position. somo gobos will soften the effect but can't stop it either (and too much damping would make things sound dull) - so the 'functions' to perform are to use less mics and to use mics which mostly pic up direct sound.

since these close mics will probably sound a bit crude/the overall soundstage not much refined, you may want to add some room sound - really, you can stick just about any mic anywhere while the band is reahearsing their first tune, make sure you get sone separation but mainly reasonable levels on each source and then all you gotta do is go for a nice blend: the band/room mixes itself, there is not much you can do!

if the band gets loud, your gonna get an entirely different sound, possibly unusable! so IF the band wants to get a reasonable sound, the playing should be all about expression/articulation but NOT about energy/dynamics!
if the band can't or doesn't want to play like that, you're lost! - then and if it's about 'sound', rent a much larger place: one cannot escape physics...

shimoyjk 27th September 2019 11:51 AM

Thanks
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by deedeeyeah (Post 14232869)
if the musicians are okay with it, i'd use the exact same setup as in your sketch! regarding mics on the piano however, i'd use only two! two are enough to picture the instrument, additional mics will only add noise (once the band starts playing). there is not much of a point in trying to achieve a great sound on it's own if this sound then gets ruined by other instruments, see also my previous post...

imo recording in small rooms (and mixing live) is about 'functions' and less about 'sound': there is no way one can stop sound travelling into all the mics, regardless of their type, pattern and position. somo gobos will soften the effect but can't stop it either (and too much damping would make things sound dull) - so the 'functions' to perform are to use less mics and to use mics which mostly pic up direct sound.

since these close mics will probably sound a bit crude/the overall soundstage not much refined, you may want to add some room sound - really, you can stick just about any mic anywhere while the band is reahearsing their first tune, make sure you get sone separation but mainly reasonable levels on each source and then all you gotta do is go for a nice blend: the band/room mixes itself, there is not much you can do!

if the band gets loud, your gonna get an entirely different sound, possibly unusable! so IF the band wants to get a reasonable sound, the playing should be all about expression/articulation but NOT about energy/dynamics!
if the band can't or doesn't want to play like that, you're lost! - then and if it's about 'sound', rent a much larger place: one cannot escape physics...

Actually it’s my studio/rehearsal space and also play piano/keys/synths :)
Thanks for your explanation again, very detailed and understood some things that I never thought about.
Maybe I was too greedy to make my own(piano) sounds fuller, next time will try two!! For piano.

Will upload some piano solo stuff before I have another session.

achabloop5080 27th September 2019 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deedeeyeah (Post 14232838)
of course i'd process the room mics (as mentioned previously), it's manadatory in small rooms!..

Now I’m really very curious: how would you process room mics in a small room? If you could go a bit into detail I think you’ll be very helpful to us trying to get a good piano sound and can’t afford a big recording hall with great acoustic.... Thx

shimoyjk 27th September 2019 02:50 PM

No idea ..
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by achabloop5080 (Post 14233122)
Now I’m really very curious: how would you process room mics in a small room? If you could go a bit into detail I think you’ll be very helpful to us trying to get a good piano sound and can’t afford a big recording hall with great acoustic.... Thx

I’m newbie when it comes to recording. I just happened to build my practice room and realized I might be able to do some recordings here. I will experiment with this next time and post here for sure, but till then i have no clue..

Klimermonk 27th September 2019 04:14 PM

This is perhaps too coy, but if the composition is not classical and the room/piano can't be properly sorted out, I always switch to Keyscape. abduction

deedeeyeah 27th September 2019 04:19 PM

new thread?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by achabloop5080 (Post 14233122)
Now I’m really very curious: how would you process room mics in a small room? If you could go a bit into detail I think you’ll be very helpful to us trying to get a good piano sound and can’t afford a big recording hall with great acoustic.... Thx

i'm somewhat reluctant to further comment: not because of you or your question but i think i've been dominating this thread a bit much, i'm not sure whether this (valuable!) discussion should not better be moved to another forum, maybe pm me or yet better, you start your own thread? i'm sure you'll want other folks to chime in and get to hear their view on things!

[furthermore, it's because i just had another clash with a contributor in this forum and i feel that keeping a low profile might add to get things back to normal; so far, i keep experiencing the heat from other posters though...
(reason for the clash was my harsh critique on a recording)]

achabloop5080 27th September 2019 08:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deedeeyeah (Post 14233406)
i'm somewhat reluctant to further comment: not because of you or your question but i think i've been dominating this thread a bit much, i'm not sure whether this (valuable!) discussion should not better be moved to another forum, maybe pm me or yet better, you start your own thread? i'm sure you'll want other folks to chime in and get to hear their view on things!

[furthermore, it's because i just had another clash with a contributor in this forum and i feel that keeping a low profile might add to get things back to normal; so far, i keep experiencing the heat from other posters though...
(reason for the clash was my harsh critique on a recording)]

I understand completely your position, I just sent you a PM.
Thank you so much!

Crazy4Jazz 28th September 2019 08:39 PM

Quote:

two are enough to picture the instrument, additional mics will only add noise
This has mostly been my experience.

Quote:

imo recording in small rooms (and mixing live) is about 'functions' and less about 'sound'
I'm not really sure what you mean by this. To me its always about sound. The way particular mics function with particular instruments is in reference to the sound quality of the recording.

Quote:

close mics will probably sound a bit crude/the overall soundstage not much refined
Again, not sure what this means. Why would close mics be "crude" and not produce a "refined" soundstage. Close miking does not a priori create "crude" sound with an "unrefined" soundstage. That is why we have tools like panning, reverb, compression, EQ, mid/side and a whole cornucopia of mic techniques - particularly stereo mic techniques. Close mixing can be very detailed and sound great. Not every recording needs to be best seat in the opera house type sound.

Quote:

if the band gets loud, your gonna get an entirely different sound
If the band is playing louder than you anticipated, you didn't set your mics and levels properly. Turn the gain down and lose the room mic or mics. It or they will be unnecessary. Rote use of room mics seems ill-advised under the circumstances. If you have a roomful of open mics, what difference will one more open mic make. It may enhance the sound of one instrument while killing the sound of another. It will definitely add noise and phasing problems. I understand why some people want to use a room mic in some situations such as when recording drums in a nice sounding room so you can capture some of the room sound too. But when recording a full band of acoustic instruments it just doesn't seem necessary to add another open mic to capture a room sound that is already integrated in the whole recording. Just my opinion of course.

If the players are so much louder than they were when you set the levels it might not be a bad idea to reset the levels.

All this is just my opinion and certainly I'm not suggesting anyone do or not do anything because of what works for me. Everyone has to find out what works best in their room with their particular setup.

deedeeyeah 28th September 2019 09:03 PM

you got me mostly wrong (and/or i didn't get my message across) - nevermind and good luck!

Crazy4Jazz 29th September 2019 05:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deedeeyeah (Post 14235757)
you got me mostly wrong (and/or i didn't get my message across) - nevermind and good luck!

Take it easy.

deedeeyeah 29th September 2019 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crazy4Jazz (Post 14236237)
Take it easy.

not really: i hate information being distorted!

(afaik, we are talking about recording/the input side in this thread?! in a small room, the room itself is the most limiting factor: it's very likely that signals as picked up by mostly directional mics will indeed sound crude and not much refined; i also assume that most folks around here will not commit eq/dyn/efx to tape but try to fix things in their itb mix - those three things are pretty much given; mixing then is another/vastly different topic. we then start talking about sculpting 'sound' by applying further 'functions'.

and pls note i wasn't referring to levels when talking about things getting loud but again about the room: there is only so much/a limited amount of energy any small room can take before things turn into a mess - getting the right levels/adjusting input gains cannot fix this)

Crazy4Jazz 5th October 2019 11:43 PM

When recording closed lid piano it helps to have side address microphones. When recording a bunch of acoustic instruments in one room, room mics serve no purpose. Your experience may be different.

Remoteness 7th October 2019 12:06 AM

4 Attachment(s)
I don't know about you folks, but when I record acoustic grand piano, I either remove the lid or use the short stick when in a small (jazz club) environment.

Sometimes, you have to use the piano with a closed lid. When I'm in that situation, I like to either make a cradle out of Gaffer's tape and place a pair of C414TLIIs or Milab DC196s in there.

Here's an image of the setup for Jon Batiste's residency at the Village Vanguard I did last winter. This week long capture produced to albums, 'Anatomy of Angels' which came out August 2nd of this year and 'Chronology Of A Dream' which will be out November 1st. In this case I used two Milab DC196s with a couple of Ultra Clamps.

Believe it or not, the isolation between the piano and drums was amazing. It was as if there were gobos and blankets around everything. We had nine to ten people on stage and the only leakage I captured was good leakage.

Jon Batiste's 'Anatomy of Angels' | All Of It | WNYC

Jon Batiste Shares the First Taste of 'Anatomy of Angels: Live at the Village Vanguard'


John Willett 7th October 2019 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shimoyjk (Post 14232521)
I’m attaching rough image that just draw..

First time when I recorded, piano was placed in drums in the picture, lid open and there were too many drums in piano.

So I placed piano where computer is now, lis open and heading wall. Didn’t get good result as well.

Now I placed piano and drum as it is shown in the drawing, but haven’t had a time to do recordings these days. Hopefully can do some work around november..

Anyway, I made 4 huge gobo, and acoustic panels and clouds now.

Also, You mentioned to use two mic for piano, and when I test recording by myself I liked two cardioids(ksm141) near hammer and two ribbons near piano’s curve, liked that sound from both pair set. Card one has more attack, ribbon one has little more mellow sound so I fiugure it might be a good idea to use 4 mic for piano that next time(alo I placed an order for pair of cm4 as you suggested, and going to get beyer m160 for drum soon.)

also going to experiment with only two cardioid as well.
But when I placed pair of ksm141(cardi mode) near hammer, right behind music stand, I started recording and when to drums to check how cardioid can reject drum bleed, so I played tomtom and bass drum. There were still lots of spills..

Blanket may help I guess?

Anyway thanks all for your insights, ideas and examples. I am going to experiment, hope can upload some soon.

From that picture you are having to place the microphones in a nasty acoustic place - close to a corner and wall.

If the piano is there I think I would consider turning it round and have the lid opening into the room, rather than to the wall.

Another alternative is boundary microphones on the floor underneath the piano (a TURTLE can turn an SDC into a boundary mic.) - or use a pair of tie microphones stuck to the lid, this often works well.

Worth trying ...

Crazy4Jazz 7th October 2019 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Willett (Post 14251088)
From that picture you are having to place the microphones in a nasty acoustic place - close to a corner and wall.

If the piano is there I think I would consider turning it round and have the lid opening into the room, rather than to the wall.

Another alternative is boundary microphones on the floor underneath the piano (a TURTLE can turn an SDC into a boundary mic.) - or use a pair of tie microphones stuck to the lid, this often works well.

Worth trying ...

I’ve heard tale of boundary mics inside the piano. Not sure if it’s worth a try but everything is I suppose. Or almost everything come to think of it. Having the opening face a wall presents its own treachery as do cymbals, drums and horns bleeding into the piano mics with reckless abandon.

John Willett 7th October 2019 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crazy4Jazz (Post 14251433)
I’ve heard tale of boundary mics inside the piano. Not sure if it’s worth a try but everything is I suppose.

Sticking small tie mics to the lid (EG: Sennehiser or DPA) will make them boundary mics and can work very well - I would use Rycote "Stickies" to do this as they peel off well when finished.

I have also found that boundary mics on the floor underneath the piano also work very well - I used Neumann GFM 132s, but placing an omni on the floor will make it a boundary mic - the TURTLE I mentioned holds it just off the floor and shockmounts it, you can also use some hypoallergenic BluTack (or similar) if you wish. kfhkh

Remoteness 7th October 2019 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Willett (Post 14251088)
From that picture you are having to place the microphones in a nasty acoustic place - close to a corner and wall.

If the piano is there I think I would consider turning it round and have the lid opening into the room, rather than to the wall...

That's exactly what I though when I saw the images.

I would indeed have turned the piano around, having the open lid into the room!

Remoteness 7th October 2019 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Willett (Post 14251485)
Sticking small tie mics to the lid (EG: Sennehiser or DPA) will make them boundary mics and can work very well - I would use Rycote "Stickies" to do this as they peel off well when finished.

I have also found that boundary mics on the floor underneath the piano also work very well - I used Neumann GFM 132s, but placing an omni on the floor will make it a boundary mic - the TURTLE I mentioned holds it just off the floor and shockmounts it, you can also use some hypoallergenic BluTack (or similar) if you wish. kfhkh

Back in the old days, I have gaffer taped PZMs to the inside of the lid with good results, especially when the lid needed to be closed. I have also used lavalier mics the same way you have described also with good results.

I like your boundary mics on the floor underneath the piano idea. Never tried that.

Crazy4Jazz 7th October 2019 04:18 PM

Quote:

placing an omni on the floor will make it a boundary mic
I've seen this done. However, for me the tie mic idea will work better. I'm dealing with a small room and usually drums, bass, piano, horn and sometimes vocals too. Essentially a live recording in a small room. Tricky, but this is an idea worth trying.

Crazy4Jazz 7th October 2019 04:19 PM

Quote:

I would indeed have turned the piano around, having the open lid into the room!
*It looks to me like the open lid does face into the room.

Hard to tell. The second pic looks that way but the 4th pic seems inverted.

In the third pic the singer and the open lid are facing the same direction which appears to be the direction of the tables and presumably the room.

Remoteness 7th October 2019 04:23 PM

I'm sorry, I was referring to your baby grand in the photo you posted in post #9 .


Quote:

Originally Posted by Crazy4Jazz (Post 14251591)
*It looks to me like the open lid does face into the room.

Hard to tell. The second pic looks that way but the 4th pic seems inverted.